UVA vs Vanderbilt Forum

[paulinaporizkova]

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[TheFactor]

this any thread >>>>> LEEWs

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FTFY

[paulinaporizkova]

Except Alabama none of these schools give out that much dough, and then OP is stuck in Alabama where nobody makes a ton anyway or almost nobody.

There is a risk. It's called 3 years and not being able to be a lawyer. If you accept the students at UVA and UNC are somewhat =, all that going to UNC really saves you would be about 80k as COL is the same, and they aren't giving a full ride. 80k to need to be in the top 25% to get a good job or 80k more for top 50%. i'd take the latter.

arbitrary cutoffs are arbitrary

[BruceWayne]

....

[Real Madrid]

Lol no I go to UVA. Be careful with this kind of logic, it can cause you a lot of trouble on the LSAT and in law school.

I was talking to the person I quoted, not you. And I've already taken the LSAT, but thanks for your concern.

[BruceWayne]

so you're saying 90% of people come out unemployed?

even according to the cynics 50% of people graduating don't get legal jobs so why would it be over 50% at a top 10? are law firms striving to hire less competent people?

This is one of the more blatant strawmen arguments I've seen. Where did I say 90 percent of people at top 14 schools come out unemployed? That's such a mis-characterization of what I said I'm almost wondering if this is flame. 90 percent really? That's what you took from my post--that doesn't even make sense.

I think you are kind of missing the point. The SMU splitter scholarship is barely more than half tuition. For somebody borrowing the full amount SMU really isn't less risky since they are still going to be effed without finding a good paying job or one that qualifies for PSLF and this is much harder to accomplish than it would be at a school like UVA.

The only thing I missed is that SMU's splitter friendliness for scholarships is low. The bottom line is that taking out 210K worth of loans to attend UVA/Duke is extremely risky, and should be balanced with the risk of attending a good regional school for big scholarship money if this is an option. If not then attending Duke/UVA for sticker is a different thing.

No offense, but why is it always the people that were not accepted to any T14s telling others that T14s are not worth sticker? This post seriously sounds like sour grapes to me.

Lol no--I attend UVA. Be careful with that kind of reasoning; it can get you in a lot of trouble on the LSAT and in law school.

I don't agree with the notion that if you arent above median at Duke/UVA you have no chance of landing a good job. I know plenty of people below median with firm jobs, and as someone below median (fairly well below), I have had a significant number of interviews and call back interviews already. It's not a fun place to be and I spent all summer networking with alumni, but going to a top 10 school has gotten me in the door and allowed me to show my strengths. I even received callbacks before coming back to school from firms coming to OGI. So telling someone that is below median, or bottom 1/3, that they won't get a decent job is pretty dumb.

Again there are a lot of strawmen arguments in this thread. I never said that if you aren't above median you have no chance of landing a good job-in fact that is so far from what I said I'm almost wondering if this is an alt from an earlier strawman post in this thread. And I DEFINITELY never said that someone below median absolutely won't get a decent job--that's absurd--where are you getting these strawmen arguments from?? First, many many law schools can get you a decent legal job if you're below median. Let alone UVA and Duke. What I'm saying is that for someone to get a six figure paying firm job out of UVA if they are under a 3.3 they are going to have a very difficult time getting one (especially if they are from the NE or DC). If you're below a 3.2 your chances become even more scary.

Saying it is "very, very likely" that someone will end up below median makes no sense. Assuming that you will have no job if you are below median at a T14 is also pretty naive. Taking any school at sticker is risky ITE, but most would agree that with good private sector prospects and LRAP/IBR, a T14 at close-to-sticker is still a good investment.

Are you serious with the bolded? Are you in law school? If so you must be one of those people who is very insensitive about other people's grades. Not everyone is able to pull off stellar grades (in fact MOST of them don't). And you shouldn't make it seem like it's outlandish/or almost ridiculous to get sub median grades. It's condescending and belittling to many of your classmates. Getting below median is very likely and very easy. Have you ever done the math? Get more than one B and don't pull any A-s or higher, and guess what--you're below median. Get any B- or less and don't pull at least one A, and guess what--you're probably below median. Pull all B+s one semester and then a mix of Bs and B+s the next, and guess what--you're below median. I'm saying it like this because it becomes a lot more real to people when it's described this way. Oftentimes we use this broad abstract language when describing rank that makes it seem like it's crazy to end up at a certain rank. Saying it like this brings a reality check. To say that it's not likely to get below median grades is one of the more absurd things I've heard on this site.

Also, it should have been pretty obvious that my post that you quoted was giving a possibility in terms of no job or a job. If you thought that I meant all people with bad grades at UVA/Duke don't get jobs, then you did some serious extrapolating with my post. And frankly I don't think you got that from it; you just responded the way you did because it's easier to respond to the particular strawman you concocted than to address the gist of what I'm saying: that the economy has gotten so bad that, for many, top 14 at sticker really isn't any better than regional for free or close to it if you're fine with that region.

lol hyperbole much?

Honestly, don't ask me if it's hyberbole. You should ask those in the 30 percent of unemployed 3L's at UVA who paid sticker if it's "hyperbole". Then you could ask the same of the unemployed 3L's at the 10 other non HYS non UVA top 14's what they think. People need to understand that times have changed. This isn't 2007.

I was talking to the person I quoted, not you. And I've already taken the LSAT, but thanks for your concern.

Check back; you quoted both of us. And like I said, watch out for it in 1L too!

[Real Madrid]

so you're saying 90% of people come out unemployed?

even according to the cynics 50% of people graduating don't get legal jobs so why would it be over 50% at a top 10? are law firms striving to hire less competent people?

This is one of the more blatant strawmen arguments I've seen. Where did I say 90 percent of people at top 14 schools come out unemployed? That's such a mis-characterization of what I said I'm almost wondering if this is flame. 90 percent really? That's what you took from my post--that doesn't even make sense.

I think you are kind of missing the point. The SMU splitter scholarship is barely more than half tuition. For somebody borrowing the full amount SMU really isn't less risky since they are still going to be effed without finding a good paying job or one that qualifies for PSLF and this is much harder to accomplish than it would be at a school like UVA.

The only thing I missed is that SMU's splitter friendliness for scholarships is low. The bottom line is that taking out 210K worth of loans to attend UVA/Duke is extremely risky, and should be balanced with the risk of attending a good regional school for big scholarship money if this is an option. If not then attending Duke/UVA for sticker is a different thing.

No offense, but why is it always the people that were not accepted to any T14s telling others that T14s are not worth sticker? This post seriously sounds like sour grapes to me.

Lol no--I attend UVA. Be careful with that kind of reasoning; it can get you in a lot of trouble on the LSAT and in law school.

I don't agree with the notion that if you arent above median at Duke/UVA you have no chance of landing a good job. I know plenty of people below median with firm jobs, and as someone below median (fairly well below), I have had a significant number of interviews and call back interviews already. It's not a fun place to be and I spent all summer networking with alumni, but going to a top 10 school has gotten me in the door and allowed me to show my strengths. I even received callbacks before coming back to school from firms coming to OGI. So telling someone that is below median, or bottom 1/3, that they won't get a decent job is pretty dumb.

Again there are a lot of strawmen arguments in this thread. I never said that if you aren't above median you have not chance of landing a good job-in fact that is so far from what I said I'm almost wondering if this is an alt from an earlier strawman post in this thread. And I DEFINITELY never said that someone below median that they won't get a decent job--that's absurd--where are you getting these strawmen arguments from?? First, many many law schools can get you a decent legal job if you're below median. Let alone UVA and Duke. What I'm saying is that for someone to get a six figure paying firm job out of UVA if they are under a 3.3 they are going to have a very difficult time getting one (especially if they are from the NE or DC). If you're below a 3.2 your chances become even more scary.

Saying it is "very, very likely" that someone will end up below median makes no sense. Assuming that you will have no job if you are below median at a T14 is also pretty naive. Taking any school at sticker is risky ITE, but most would agree that with good private sector prospects and LRAP/IBR, a T14 at close-to-sticker is still a good investment.

Are you serious with the bolded? Are you in law school? If so you must be one of those people who is very insensitive about grades. Getting below median is very very likely and very easy. Have you ever done the math? Get more than one B and don't pull any A-s or higher, and guess what--you're below median. Get any B- or less and don't pull at least one A, and guess what--you're probably below median. Pull all B+s one semester and then a mix of Bs and B+s the next, and guess what--you're below median. To say that it's not likely to get below median grades is one of the more absurd things I've heard on this site. Also, it should have been pretty obvious that my post that you quoted was giving a possibility in terms of no job or a job. If you thought that I meant all people with bad grades at UVA/Duke don't get jobs, then you did some serious extrapolating with my post. And frankly I don't think you got that from it; you just responded the way you did because it's easier to respond to the particular strawman you concocted than to address the gist of what I'm saying: that the economy has gotten so bad that, for many, top 14 at sticker really isn't any better than regional for free or close to it if you're fine with that region.

lol hyperbole much?

Honestly, don't ask me if it's hyberbole. You should ask those in the 30 percent of unemployed 3L's at UVA who paid sticker if it's "hyperbole". Then you could ask the same of the unemployed 3L's at the 10 other non HYS non UVA top 14's what they think. People need to understand that times have changed. This isn't 2007.

I was talking to the person I quoted, not you. And I've already taken the LSAT, but thanks for your concern.

Check back; you quoted both of us. And like I said, watch out for it in 1L too!

Um, the person immediately above my text was the one I was speaking to - I thought it was pretty widely understood that that's how quoting worked.

And I don't think I'm going far out on a limb by assuming a poster that was rejected at Emory and attends Tulane on a partial scholarship was not accepted at a T14. And regardless, the point of my post was to point out a trend that I've noticed a lot of whenever talk comes up about T14s at sticker.

[BruceWayne]

Um, the person immediately above my text was the one I was speaking to - I thought it was pretty widely understood that that's how quoting worked.

And I don't think I'm going far out on a limb by assuming a poster that was WLed at Vandy and attends Tulane was not accepted at a T14. And regardless, the point of my post was to point out a trend that I've noticed a lot of whenever talk comes up about T14s at sticker.

To make your posts more clear, when there are imbedded quotes, quote only the poster you are responding to, or bold highlight the quote that you are responding to (or increase the font size of the quote you're responding to).

If you're responding to this thread the way you are because you are going to UVA for sticker, don't worry about your chances of landing a job. If you want a Bama firm job from UVA, with your ties, you will get one regardless of grades. This is why I said that sticker is not always bad for everyone, just that for many people it is. If you were from the NE or DC and went to UVA and got a 3.0 you'd be in for a hell of a fight.

[Grizz]

Um, the person immediately above my text was the one I was speaking to - I thought it was pretty widely understood that that's how quoting worked.

And I don't think I'm going far out on a limb by assuming a poster that was rejected at Emory and attends Tulane on a partial scholarship was not accepted at a T14. And regardless, the point of my post was to point out a trend that I've noticed a lot of whenever talk comes up about T14s at sticker.

I've noticed that a lot of 0Ls who don't have the numbers to get $ at T14 schools love to talk up attending T14 schools at sticker. What of it.

[BruceWayne]

I've noticed that a lot of 0Ls who don't have the numbers to get $ at T14 schools love to talk up attending T14 schools at sticker. What of it.

That was pretty funny.

[Real Madrid]

Um, the person immediately above my text was the one I was speaking to - I thought it was pretty widely understood that that's how quoting worked.

And I don't think I'm going far out on a limb by assuming a poster that was rejected at Emory and attends Tulane on a partial scholarship was not accepted at a T14. And regardless, the point of my post was to point out a trend that I've noticed a lot of whenever talk comes up about T14s at sticker.

I've noticed that a lot of 0Ls who don't have the numbers to get $ at T14 schools love to talk up attending T14 schools at sticker. What of it.

Interesting. Have you noticed any patterns about individuals with 2/3 of tuition for a T14 saved up already? I'm guessing not.

[drylo]

Um, the person immediately above my text was the one I was speaking to - I thought it was pretty widely understood that that's how quoting worked.

And I don't think I'm going far out on a limb by assuming a poster that was rejected at Emory and attends Tulane on a partial scholarship was not accepted at a T14. And regardless, the point of my post was to point out a trend that I've noticed a lot of whenever talk comes up about T14s at sticker.

I've noticed that a lot of 0Ls who don't have the numbers to get $ at T14 schools love to talk up attending T14 schools at sticker. What of it.

LOL.

Just for Real Madrid's sake, though, I will say that I am glad I did not pay sticker at a T14 HYS.

[BruceWayne]

Um, the person immediately above my text was the one I was speaking to - I thought it was pretty widely understood that that's how quoting worked.

And I don't think I'm going far out on a limb by assuming a poster that was rejected at Emory and attends Tulane on a partial scholarship was not accepted at a T14. And regardless, the point of my post was to point out a trend that I've noticed a lot of whenever talk comes up about T14s at sticker.

I've noticed that a lot of 0Ls who don't have the numbers to get $ at T14 schools love to talk up attending T14 schools at sticker. What of it.

No joke.

Just for Real Madrid's sake, though, I will say that I am glad I did not pay sticker at a T14 HYS.

Damn how much income were you making for you to have to pay sticker at HYS (considering they do need-based grants)? And that's the irony of the sticker for top 14 debate. Really the only top 14 schools that are universally worth sticker are HYS, but the only people who'd end up paying sticker at HYS are making so much income that it wouldn't be that big of a deal for them to pay sticker anyway.

[drylo]

Um, the person immediately above my text was the one I was speaking to - I thought it was pretty widely understood that that's how quoting worked.

And I don't think I'm going far out on a limb by assuming a poster that was rejected at Emory and attends Tulane on a partial scholarship was not accepted at a T14. And regardless, the point of my post was to point out a trend that I've noticed a lot of whenever talk comes up about T14s at sticker.

I've noticed that a lot of 0Ls who don't have the numbers to get $ at T14 schools love to talk up attending T14 schools at sticker. What of it.

No joke.

Just for Real Madrid's sake, though, I will say that I am glad I did not pay sticker at a T14 HYS.

Damn how much income were you making for you to have to pay sticker at HYS (considering they do need-based grants)? And that's the irony of the sticker for top 14 debate. Really the only top 14 schools that are universally worth sticker are HYS, but the only people who'd end up paying sticker at HYS are making so much income that it wouldn't be that big of a deal for them to pay sticker anyway.

Well I withdrew before doing the aid paperwork, but it still would have been well into the six figures. [/derail]

[Real Madrid]

Um, the person immediately above my text was the one I was speaking to - I thought it was pretty widely understood that that's how quoting worked.

And I don't think I'm going far out on a limb by assuming a poster that was rejected at Emory and attends Tulane on a partial scholarship was not accepted at a T14. And regardless, the point of my post was to point out a trend that I've noticed a lot of whenever talk comes up about T14s at sticker.

I've noticed that a lot of 0Ls who don't have the numbers to get $ at T14 schools love to talk up attending T14 schools at sticker. What of it.

LOL.

Just for Real Madrid's sake, though, I will say that I am glad I did not pay sticker at a T14 HYS.

Well, I'm sincerely glad you're happy with your decision. I for one would take UVA at sticker over a full ride at UGA or Wake, but to each their own.

[TheFactor]

Saying it is "very, very likely" that someone will end up below median makes no sense. Assuming that you will have no job if you are below median at a T14 is also pretty naive. Taking any school at sticker is risky ITE, but most would agree that with good private sector prospects and LRAP/IBR, a T14 at close-to-sticker is still a good investment.

Are you serious with the bolded? Are you in law school? If so you must be one of those people who is very insensitive about other people's grades. Not everyone is able to pull off stellar grades (in fact MOST of them don't). And you shouldn't make it seem like it's outlandish/or almost ridiculous to get sub median grades. It's condescending and belittling to many of your classmates. Getting below median is very likely and very easy. Have you ever done the math? Get more than one B and don't pull any A-s or higher, and guess what--you're below median. Get any B- or less and don't pull at least one A, and guess what--you're probably below median. Pull all B+s one semester and then a mix of Bs and B+s the next, and guess what--you're below median. I'm saying it like this because it becomes a lot more real to people when it's described this way. Oftentimes we use this broad abstract language when describing rank that makes it seem like it's crazy to end up at a certain rank. Saying it like this brings a reality check. To say that it's not likely to get below median grades is one of the more absurd things I've heard on this site.

Also, it should have been pretty obvious that my post that you quoted was giving a possibility in terms of no job or a job. If you thought that I meant all people with bad grades at UVA/Duke don't get jobs, then you did some serious extrapolating with my post. And frankly I don't think you got that from it; you just responded the way you did because it's easier to respond to the particular strawman you concocted than to address the gist of what I'm saying: that the economy has gotten so bad that, for many, top 14 at sticker really isn't any better than regional for free or close to it if you're fine with that region.

I'm honestly not sure if this srs, but I'm not going to spend time explaining why it is not more likely that any one student ends up in the bottom 50% of the class than in the top 50% of the class.

[BruceWayne]

Saying it is "very, very likely" that someone will end up below median makes no sense. Assuming that you will have no job if you are below median at a T14 is also pretty naive. Taking any school at sticker is risky ITE, but most would agree that with good private sector prospects and LRAP/IBR, a T14 at close-to-sticker is still a good investment.

Are you serious with the bolded? Are you in law school? If so you must be one of those people who is very insensitive about other people's grades. Not everyone is able to pull off stellar grades (in fact MOST of them don't). And you shouldn't make it seem like it's outlandish/or almost ridiculous to get sub median grades. It's condescending and belittling to many of your classmates. Getting below median is very likely and very easy. Have you ever done the math? Get more than one B and don't pull any A-s or higher, and guess what--you're below median. Get any B- or less and don't pull at least one A, and guess what--you're probably below median. Pull all B+s one semester and then a mix of Bs and B+s the next, and guess what--you're below median. I'm saying it like this because it becomes a lot more real to people when it's described this way. Oftentimes we use this broad abstract language when describing rank that makes it seem like it's crazy to end up at a certain rank. Saying it like this brings a reality check. To say that it's not likely to get below median grades is one of the more absurd things I've heard on this site.

Also, it should have been pretty obvious that my post that you quoted was giving a possibility in terms of no job or a job. If you thought that I meant all people with bad grades at UVA/Duke don't get jobs, then you did some serious extrapolating with my post. And frankly I don't think you got that from it; you just responded the way you did because it's easier to respond to the particular strawman you concocted than to address the gist of what I'm saying: that the economy has gotten so bad that, for many, top 14 at sticker really isn't any better than regional for free or close to it if you're fine with that region.

I'm honestly not sure if this srs, but I'm not going to spend time explaining why it is not more likely that any one student ends up in the bottom 50% of the class than in the top 50% of the class.

You're going wild with the strawmen arguments. I didn't say that it was MORE likely than ending up in the top, rather that it is VERY likely. And to be frank, it actually is MORE likely for a particular individual to end up bottom 50 percent than top 50 percent depending on their background. For example, if you just slipped in (i.e you got in only because you did early decision) as opposed to someone who was first in their class in college (and those type of people exist at every top 14) then you actually are more likely to be bottom. But we're both beating a dead horse here.

[sundance95]

I didn't say that it was MORE likely than ending up in the top, rather that it is VERY likely. And to be frank, it actually is MORE likely for a particular individual to end up bottom 50 percent than top 50 percent depending on their background. For example, if you just slipped in (i.e you got in only because you did early decision) as opposed to someone who was first in their class in college (and those type of people exist at every top 14) then you actually are more likely to be bottom.

That's a hell of a claim to make, given that you don't have a shred of empirical data to support it.

If you are very likely to be in the bottom half of the class, then you're also very likely to be in the top of the class, given the bell-curve nature of law school grading.

[Stringer Bell]

I didn't say that it was MORE likely than ending up in the top, rather that it is VERY likely. And to be frank, it actually is MORE likely for a particular individual to end up bottom 50 percent than top 50 percent depending on their background. For example, if you just slipped in (i.e you got in only because you did early decision) as opposed to someone who was first in their class in college (and those type of people exist at every top 14) then you actually are more likely to be bottom.

That's a hell of a claim to make, given that you don't have a shred of empirical data to support it.

If you are very likely to be in the bottom half of the class, then you're also very likely to be in the top of the class, given the bell-curve nature of law school grading.

I'll plus one this. Someone with a 3.2/180 in a difficult major would likely have to ED to be accepted to UVA. For BW to make the claim that this person would have a better chance of finishing below median than a 3.7/170 that majored in communications is pretty presumptive.

[Gecko of Doom]

I didn't say that it was MORE likely than ending up in the top, rather that it is VERY likely. And to be frank, it actually is MORE likely for a particular individual to end up bottom 50 percent than top 50 percent depending on their background. For example, if you just slipped in (i.e you got in only because you did early decision) as opposed to someone who was first in their class in college (and those type of people exist at every top 14) then you actually are more likely to be bottom.

That's a hell of a claim to make, given that you don't have a shred of empirical data to support it.

TLS needs to make up its mind on this. If you're going to a lower-ranked school hoping to be at the top of the class, you get the whole "GPA and LSAT aren't predictive of law school performance" thing. If you're going someplace where you squeaked in at sticker, you get "you're screwed because you're going to be at the bottom of the class and $200,000 in debt." I mean, normally I'm sympathetic to the doom and gloom stuff, but it can't be both.

[AffordablePrep]

I didn't say that it was MORE likely than ending up in the top, rather that it is VERY likely. And to be frank, it actually is MORE likely for a particular individual to end up bottom 50 percent than top 50 percent depending on their background. For example, if you just slipped in (i.e you got in only because you did early decision) as opposed to someone who was first in their class in college (and those type of people exist at every top 14) then you actually are more likely to be bottom.

That's a hell of a claim to make, given that you don't have a shred of empirical data to support it.

TLS needs to make up its mind on this. If you're going to a lower-ranked school hoping to be at the top of the class, you get the whole "GPA and LSAT aren't predictive of law school performance" thing. If you're going someplace where you squeaked in at sticker, you get "you're screwed because you're going to be at the bottom of the class and $200,000 in debt." I mean, normally I'm sympathetic to the doom and gloom stuff, but it can't be both.

tls isn't one person. different people think differently. what is ironic is the only schools i've heard of giving complete full rides this past yr were IU, Card, WUSTL, Bama and the top 14's.

[TheFactor]

Saying it is "very, very likely" that someone will end up below median makes no sense. Assuming that you will have no job if you are below median at a T14 is also pretty naive. Taking any school at sticker is risky ITE, but most would agree that with good private sector prospects and LRAP/IBR, a T14 at close-to-sticker is still a good investment.

Are you serious with the bolded? Are you in law school? If so you must be one of those people who is very insensitive about other people's grades. Not everyone is able to pull off stellar grades (in fact MOST of them don't). And you shouldn't make it seem like it's outlandish/or almost ridiculous to get sub median grades. It's condescending and belittling to many of your classmates. Getting below median is very likely and very easy. Have you ever done the math? Get more than one B and don't pull any A-s or higher, and guess what--you're below median. Get any B- or less and don't pull at least one A, and guess what--you're probably below median. Pull all B+s one semester and then a mix of Bs and B+s the next, and guess what--you're below median. I'm saying it like this because it becomes a lot more real to people when it's described this way. Oftentimes we use this broad abstract language when describing rank that makes it seem like it's crazy to end up at a certain rank. Saying it like this brings a reality check. To say that it's not likely to get below median grades is one of the more absurd things I've heard on this site.

Also, it should have been pretty obvious that my post that you quoted was giving a possibility in terms of no job or a job. If you thought that I meant all people with bad grades at UVA/Duke don't get jobs, then you did some serious extrapolating with my post. And frankly I don't think you got that from it; you just responded the way you did because it's easier to respond to the particular strawman you concocted than to address the gist of what I'm saying: that the economy has gotten so bad that, for many, top 14 at sticker really isn't any better than regional for free or close to it if you're fine with that region.

I'm honestly not sure if this srs, but I'm not going to spend time explaining why it is not more likely that any one student ends up in the bottom 50% of the class than in the top 50% of the class.

You're going wild with the strawmen arguments. I didn't say that it was MORE likely than ending up in the top, rather that it is VERY likely. And to be frank, it actually is MORE likely for a particular individual to end up bottom 50 percent than top 50 percent depending on their background. For example, if you just slipped in (i.e you got in only because you did early decision) as opposed to someone who was first in their class in college (and those type of people exist at every top 14) then you actually are more likely to be bottom. But we're both beating a dead horse here.

lol this is pure speculation. Not a shred of evidence supports the bolded claim.

You are making yourself look silly trying to rationalize an elementary error in reasoning. You claim that it is "VERY likely" that a given student will finish below median. But according to the logic in your argument, it is also "VERY likely" that a student will finish above median. When considering two mutually exclusive categories, it is impossible for a given data point (i.e. a student) to be very likely (which in this case, by the way, is equivalent to saying more likely) to fall, simultaneously, within both categories.