For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

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ksllaw
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby ksllaw » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:36 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
ksllaw wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:A large percentage of the rest of the class ends up on school funded "fellowships" where they beg a public interest legal employer to allow them to volunteer for a year and live off of a 30K stipend from the law school.



What optoins are there after the fellowship ends?

Go ahead and ask them. Linkedin should be your friend.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/2010/05 ... ships.html


I performed a little bit of online research based on your link above, Tiago. These were some of the members of the Class of 2010 at Harvard Law School, who were fellowship recipients from the link above (I listed their Harvard fellowship from the link and also their most recent position):

Titus Lin
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/titus-lin/14/5b9/804
Associate at Gellas Shah LLP (2011- Present)
Harvard Holmes Fellowship (2010)


Caroline Bredeson
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/caroline-bredeson/a/754/603
Assistant Public Defender at Hennepin County Public Defender's Office (September 2010 – Present)
Harvard Restone Fellowship (2010 Recipient)


Hillary Steinbrook
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/hillary-ste ... /5/839/965
Adjunct Faculty at Salem State College (September 2012 – Present)
Adjunct Faculty at Northeastern University (June 2012 – Present)
Adjunct Faculty at New England Law (June 2012-present)
Harvard Holmes Fellowship (2010 Recipient)


Craig Altemose
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/craig-altemose/7/19a/589
Executive Director at Better Future Project (January 2011 – Present)
Description: Working to build consensus that there is a more just, secure, healthy, and prosperous future ahead for us all if we stop burning fossil fuels.
Harvard Irving Kaufman Fellowship (2010 Recipient)


Al Sahlstrom
--LinkRemoved--
Attorney at Halifax Legal LLC (Sole Proprietorship) (October 2011 – Present)
Description: Sole Proprietorship; Myself Only; Law Practice industry
Harvard Skirnick Fellowship (2010 Recipient)


Komala Ramachandra
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/komala-rama ... /40/20/421
Attorney at Accountability Counsel (September 2010 – Present)
Description: Nonprofit; 1-10 employees; Law Practice industry
Harvard Holmes Fellowship (2010 Recipient)


Lawrence Horsburgh
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/lawrence-horsburgh/15/8b7/5
Litigation Associate at White and Case (May 2012 – Present)
Description: Partnership; 1001-5000 employees; Law Practice industry
Harvard Restone Fellowship (2010 Recipient)



Anna Myles-Primakoff
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/anna-myles- ... 18/112/9a4
Staff Attorney at Children's Law Center (October 2010 – Present)
Description: Nonprofit; 51-200 employees; Legal Services industry
Harvard Redstone Fellowship (2010 Recipient)


Leigh Ann Webster
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/leigh-ann-webster/38/587/60
Staff Attorney at Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals (April 2012 – Present)
Harvard Redstone Fellowship (2010 Recipient)


Pablo Svirsky
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/pablo-svirsky/15/713/43b
Attorney at Faegre Baker Daniels LLP (August 2011 – Present)
Description: Partnership; 1001-5000 employees; Law Practice industry
Harvard Redstone Fellowship (2010 Recipient)


Shannon Erwin
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/shannon-erwin/31/52a/46b
State Policy Director at Massachusetts Immigrant & Refugee Advocacy Coalition (MIRA) (August 2011 – Present)
Description: Nonprofit; 11-50 employees; Public Policy industry
Harvard Irving Kaufman Fellowship (2010 Recipient)


Leah Cohen
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/leah-cohen/15/87b/6a2
Policy Advisor at NYC Mayor's Office of Long-Term Planning and Sustainability (October 2011 – Present)
Climate Adaptation Fellow at US EPA (January 2011 – September 2011)
Harvard Redstone Fellowship (2010 Recipient)


Jennifer MacLeod
http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/jennifer-macleod/25/b45/1ab
Consultant for Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women at UN Women (September 2012 – Present)
Co-Director and Co-Founder at Lawyers Against Abuse (January 2011 – Present)
Harvard Holmes Fellowship (2010 Recipient)


It looks like there was a mix of post-fellowship outcomes for these HLS fellowship winners. Out of curiosity, were these particular "fellowships" the type that are given to and taken by those who generally could not otherwise find "desirable" employment elsewhere and needed something desparately (the type of fellowship Law Professor Paul Campos has mentioned before as being a kind of euphemistic title for something that is actually an "undesirable outcome" from an ex ante perspective)? Or were they more of a prestigious honor that top students competed for? Or possibly something in-between or something else?
Last edited by ksllaw on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:11 am, edited 5 times in total.

ksllaw
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby ksllaw » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:29 pm

romothesavior wrote:1. This thread is from 2011. You people are arguing with pisters who no longer exist on TLS.

2. LOL @ "moving up" in the average ID shop. They are generally terrible to their associates, pay terribly, and have terrible long-term prospects. Are there exceptions? Sure. But this is a bad route to plan to take.

3.
rad lulz wrote:
JO 14 wrote:Apparently things have greatly improved since this thread was created. Going by what I experienced and witnessed, I do not know a person who did not get a solid SA (aside from a few that wanted DC and settled for somewhere else).

News flash: the people who don't get one tend not to talk about it

Yup.


2. ID salaries of $80K actually did not sound that terrible to me (is that not similar to the salary of government law work?) if one's debt load post-law school was not that high. I'm curious how difficult/easy it might be to break into ID work (pre-recession and post-recession)? How large of a slice of the legal pie is ID work?

It sounds that the negatives are mainly:

a.) Lower ceiling for advancement long-term.
b.) Hectic work conditions.

But does b.) not vary with specific firm culture? I.e., Are areyouinsane's descriptions merely generalizations and/or stereotypes? I've been hearing that in biglaw the firm culture can vary widely. Some can be quite pressure-filled and unpleasant (with nastiness of attitudes), while other environments seem to have more mutual respect and relative calm to them.
Last edited by ksllaw on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:38 pm

ksllaw wrote: It looks like there was a mix of post-fellowship outcomes for these HLS fellowship winners. Out of curiosity, were these particular "fellowships" the type that are given to and taken by those who generally could not otherwise find desirable employment elsewhere and needed something desparately (the type of fellowship Law Professor Paul Campos has mentioned before as being a kind of euphemistic title for something that is actually an "undesirable outcome" from an ex ante perspective)? Or were they more of a prestigious honor that top students competed for? Or possibly something in-between or something else?

These are named fellowships from Harvard. I really doubt this is what Campos is talking about.

ksllaw
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby ksllaw » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:10 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
These are named fellowships from Harvard. I really doubt this is what Campos is talking about.



I did have that feeling as well. I had hoped to find some data on post-fellowship career trajectories of that type that Campos and TLS poster, BruceWayne, had described.

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JCougar
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby JCougar » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:16 am

Campos, et al. were likely talking about the massive amounts of graduates that Virginia, Columbia, George Washington, etc. were throwing into these positions to game the placement numbers. I think there was another NY school that had an unusually high number, too, but I can't remember which.

Everyone expected the Harvard school-funded jobs to lead to something better because, well, it's Harvard.

The fact that the Harvard outcomes seem mixed at best isn't a good sign for people who attend GW who also get these same positions.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:37 am

JCougar wrote:Campos, et al. were likely talking about the massive amounts of graduates that Virginia, Columbia, George Washington, etc. were throwing into these positions to game the placement numbers. I think there was another NY school that had an unusually high number, too, but I can't remember which.

Everyone expected the Harvard school-funded jobs to lead to something better because, well, it's Harvard.

The fact that the Harvard outcomes seem mixed at best isn't a good sign for people who attend GW who also get these same positions.

Harvard's school funded placement shot up along with everyone else's. Credit to them for providing this info, which I doubt exists for any other schools. That said, it's not reasonable to assume these Harvard people all did fine but everyone at non-HYS T-14s must have been working as a waiter at the end of their fellowship. We should assume as with everything else that Harvard has the best outcomes, Columbia's are a bit worse, UVA's a bit worse still, and GW's much worse. And as you say, the outcomes at the school which should have the best results seem less than ideal.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:11 am

ksllaw wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
These are named fellowships from Harvard. I really doubt this is what Campos is talking about.

I did have that feeling as well. I had hoped to find some data on post-fellowship career trajectories of that type that Campos and TLS poster, BruceWayne, had described.

Well, anecdotally, my school did those post-grad fellowships and they actually turned out well for most people I know of. One person worked for legal aid doing DV cases and then got a DV policy position; two people interned for state Supreme Court justices, and one got a state court of appeals clerkship and the other a family law gig; one worked for the state AG and got a permanent gig out of it. I do know of one person who I think didn't have a great outcome - is employed, but not in a traditional JD required gig (which I think he'd have preferred).

For context, my school places very few in true biglaw, more in regional biglaw (which is small out here), and then a lot in small firms and some as PDs and DAs. Although a lot of people were unemployed at graduation (2011), I'd say almost everyone I can track is now employed. Underemployment is the bigger problem, though - some people are contract attorneys/doing doc review, but not tons; mostly people are working pretty long hours for very little money. It's real law work, but it's probably not paying down their debt very well.

In any case, I actually think at my school most people in these fellowships did fairly well. BUT not everyone could get such a fellowship, and a lot of the people who did were pretty strong candidates overall, who in previous years could have legitimately counted on getting hired before graduation.

ksllaw
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby ksllaw » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:55 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Well, anecdotally, my school did those post-grad fellowships and they actually turned out well for most people I know of. One person worked for legal aid doing DV cases and then got a DV policy position; two people interned for state Supreme Court justices, and one got a state court of appeals clerkship and the other a family law gig; one worked for the state AG and got a permanent gig out of it. I do know of one person who I think didn't have a great outcome - is employed, but not in a traditional JD required gig (which I think he'd have preferred).

For context, my school places very few in true biglaw, more in regional biglaw (which is small out here), and then a lot in small firms and some as PDs and DAs. Although a lot of people were unemployed at graduation (2011), I'd say almost everyone I can track is now employed. Underemployment is the bigger problem, though - some people are contract attorneys/doing doc review, but not tons; mostly people are working pretty long hours for very little money. It's real law work, but it's probably not paying down their debt very well.

In any case, I actually think at my school most people in these fellowships did fairly well. BUT not everyone could get such a fellowship, and a lot of the people who did were pretty strong candidates overall, who in previous years could have legitimately counted on getting hired before graduation.


What is a "DV case," A. Nony?

I'm also curious actually what proportion of T14 graduates obtained entirely no legal employment, nor fellowship at all? In other words, they were completely unemployed.

Thank you for the overview at your school. Would you by chance be at a T14-T20?
Last edited by ksllaw on Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:59 pm

ksllaw wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Well, anecdotally, my school did those post-grad fellowships and they actually turned out well for most people I know of. One person worked for legal aid doing DV cases and then got a DV policy position; two people interned for state Supreme Court justices, and one got a state court of appeals clerkship and the other a family law gig; one worked for the state AG and got a permanent gig out of it. I do know of one person who I think didn't have a great outcome - is employed, but not in a traditional JD required gig (which I think he'd have preferred).

For context, my school places very few in true biglaw, more in regional biglaw (which is small out here), and then a lot in small firms and some as PDs and DAs. Although a lot of people were unemployed at graduation (2011), I'd say almost everyone I can track is now employed. Underemployment is the bigger problem, though - some people are contract attorneys/doing doc review, but not tons; mostly people are working pretty long hours for very little money. It's real law work, but it's probably not paying down their debt very well.

In any case, I actually think at my school most people in these fellowships did fairly well. BUT not everyone could get such a fellowship, and a lot of the people who did were pretty strong candidates overall, who in previous years could have legitimately counted on getting hired before graduation.


What is a "DV case," A. Nony?

I'm also curious actually what proportion of T14 graduates obtained entirely no legal employment, nor fellowship at all? In other words, they were completely unemployed?

Thank you for the overview at your school. Would you by chance be at a T14-T20?

Sorry, DV = domestic violence. As for the proportion of those completely unemployed, I'd check Law School Transparency. And no, not a T14-20. (T1 below that.)

nba101790
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby nba101790 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:15 pm

To add my two cents here:

It seems like most of the focus on these boards is T14 at all costs, with a focus on being hired by big law. While there's obviously a clear advantage to this, and a serious correlation between the two things, anecdotally I'll say that I know a great number of people that went to law school for vaguer reasons and are doing extremely well.

Without getting into details, a number of friends who've been interested in and worked in real estate decided to go to law school about 5-7 years ago, during the boom. Three went to T14, three went to decent T50-60 schools. All graduated and went back into development. To my knowledge, five of those guys now effectively serve as their own counsel and are entrepreneurs with a host of legal connections and background into the most minute details of building in their respective markets. Self-employment's precariousness aside, they make much, much more than the average big law lawyer based on the numbers here.

My point is that while big law is a compelling reason to "retake" and get into Yale at all costs, law school can be a more holistic experience for branching into related industries as well.

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bluepenguin
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby bluepenguin » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:19 pm

It doesn't sound like the people you cited branched into anything. They went back into fields they were already working in before. That's a big difference from a K-JD trying to work in a non-legal field with a law degree.

nba101790
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby nba101790 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:24 pm

Bluepenguin, maybe I wasn't that clear as I was just relating what I've heard from these guys. Basically, these guys were interested in development and saw a fast-approaching ceiling based on their UG credentials and ability to raise capital as 24-25 year olds. Law school and law credentials, in their estimation, helped them become legitimate players much faster. So, while they didn't "branch out," they were able to move into the most lucrative parts of the industry in a way they probably wouldn't otherwise have been able to.

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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby bluepenguin » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:17 pm

Right, that's what I thought and that's an appropriate path for some people if they have that option. For the people who come in from undergrad or crap jobs in lousy industries, they're going to need a legal job after graduation, and that's tough out of most schools (even T14, but *especially* non-T14).




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