BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

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Cupidity
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Cupidity » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:05 pm

NYC Law wrote:
iwantT14 wrote:haha thats pretty awesome man, good job! yeh im pretty sure rutgers law will give me atleast 10k/yr to go there so I should look to get them to match that.


Probably not, the other offers generally need to be from peer schools (or better). The peer group in this instance is GW/BU/BC/Fordham/ND (most of the state school in that range don't hold as much negotiation weight since they're known to be looser with cash). Even if you don't get offers from another school, sometimes an acceptance alone to a peer school can do the trick.


Forham matched my $7,500 from University of Florida. Work them one at a time. Once you get money at one of the three, use that offer against the other higher ranked schools.

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cinephile
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby cinephile » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:09 pm

You might just have better negotiation skills than some of us - or at least better than I do. I had no luck negotiating with BU, and I had higher scholarships elsewhere. I did manage to negotiate a bit with a couple state schools, but not BU.

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NYC Law
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:13 pm

Just don't give ultimatums and don't be a dick, also don't be afraid to ask later into the cycle if you don't get anywhere at first. BU pretty much refused to negotiate with anyone prior to April or so, but closer to summer I was able to get them to open up to negotiations.
And yeah Fordham seems pretty open if you approach them the right way. It wouldn't hurt to throw all your offers out there and see what sticks, for the most part that peer group holds the most weight though.

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cinephile
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby cinephile » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:17 pm

NYC Law wrote:Just don't give ultimatums and don't be a dick, also don't be afraid to ask later into the cycle if you don't get anywhere at first. BU pretty much refused to negotiate with anyone prior to April or so, but closer to summer I was able to get them to open up to negotiations.
And yeah Fordham seems pretty open if you approach them the right way. It wouldn't hurt to throw all your offers out there and see what sticks, for the most part that peer group holds the most weight though.


Thinking back, I probably should have deposited at multiple places so that I could have continued negotiations closer to summer.

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Cupidity
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Cupidity » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:18 pm

NYC Law wrote:Just don't give ultimatums and don't be a dick, also don't be afraid to ask later into the cycle if you don't get anywhere at first. BU pretty much refused to negotiate with anyone prior to April or so, but closer to summer I was able to get them to open up to negotiations.
And yeah Fordham seems pretty open if you approach them the right way. It wouldn't hurt to throw all your offers out there and see what sticks, for the most part that peer group holds the most weight though.


I negotiated with them up until June, with most of it happening in late May, after I got off BC's waitlist.

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby cr1stina » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:38 pm

Cupidity wrote:Board index » Choosing a Law SchoolAll times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?



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I also negotiated with Fordham by mentioning my $18k scholarship from University of Florida (6k/year) and they offered me $20k/year merit and another $10k/year need based grant...so 90k in total, I had a 3.16/166 but I'm a bit of a URM (Cuban).

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby JCougar » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:04 am

iwantT14 wrote:I know people are going to say its a bad idea to pay sticker at these schools but these are some of my options right now. After looking on lawschooltransparency.com, I've warmed up to the idea of paying sticker at one of these schools (i have a decent amount of savings so lets say I could pay for 1 year tuition out of pocket). For the class of 2009, it looks like about 40-45% of graduates were getting biglaw type of jobs paying above $145k. Am i missing something here? The economy seems to have gotten much better since then and (hopefully) will continue to improve so why are ppl so against paying sticker here? IMO, a 40% chance at a biglaw type of job is worth it. Obv you would prefer to have better odds, but its not that bad. Thoughts?


Here is what you're missing: The class of 2009 had it significantly better than the class of 2010, class of 2011, class of 2012, and likely the class of 2013. Plus, we have no idea how many of those c/o 2009 people who initially got those salaries got deferred or simply laid off. And it's not going to improve soon. Corporate clients have decided that they no longer want to pay $500/hour for a bevy of first-year associates to figure out how to do research, half of which leave before their fourth year at the firm. Their demands have been that biglaw firms hire fewer associates, yet retain these associates longer so the work they are getting is more "expert level" work. This new attitude basically seals the deal as far as whether biglaw hiring is ever going to return to the levels it once experienced.

Also, a 50/50 shot when gambling the price of a future home isn't really good odds.

DO NOT go to these schools at sticker.

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Cupidity
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Cupidity » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:16 am

JCougar wrote:
Also, a 50/50 shot when gambling the price of a future home isn't really good odds.

DO NOT go to these schools at sticker.

It's not like this is just probability, it's all about skill. It's less like a lottery and more like survivor. You got what it takes?

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby JCougar » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:20 am

Cupidity wrote:
JCougar wrote:
Also, a 50/50 shot when gambling the price of a future home isn't really good odds.

DO NOT go to these schools at sticker.

It's not like this is just probability, it's all about skill. It's less like a lottery and more like survivor. You got what it takes?


But generally, at schools like this, probably close to 80-90% of the students will have enough work ethic and skill to learn 1L legal doctrine. And most have enough gumption to make it through first year.

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby AffordablePrep » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:28 am

But what percentage can apply what they learn? You're not asked to learn concepts, and apply them to novel situations in UG. I doubt 80-90% of the class even at the top 14 "get it".

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Slevin Kelevra 2011 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:54 am

These are three of the only non-T14 schools that really place well in biglaw. If you are going to go to a non-T14 and want biglaw in the northeast, these are the schools you need to attend. The same can be said for UCLA/USC on the west coast. Probably the same for Vandy/UT in the south.

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby JCougar » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:48 am

AffordablePrep wrote:But what percentage can apply what they learn? You're not asked to learn concepts, and apply them to novel situations in UG. I doubt 80-90% of the class even at the top 14 "get it".


Applying what you learn on a law exam is even easier than learning the doctrine itself. If you really understand the doctrine, it will be very easy to apply.

People on here really underestimate the value of blowing smoke up the professor's ass on a law exam while still maintaining the verneer of credibility. There's an enormous amount of points out there to be attained by doing this, at least with the majority of the professors I've had. If your professor gives you the typical issue spotter exam with no word limit and grades using the tally mark approach, this is the path to success. If your professor asks a lot of policy questions, its even more true.

It's hard to wrap your head around an educational system that rewards this kind of approach...especially one that determines winners and losers before anyone has even set foot in a law firm. But those that learn it will succeed.

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Robespierre » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:55 am

OP isn't taking on 200K debt. He said more like 100-120K. Plus he's a CPA with Big 4 auditing experience so if he doesn't get Biglaw he can explore some "taxguy"-type options.

OP, those are good schools, so if you really want LS, don't hesitate.

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby JCougar » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:10 pm

Robespierre wrote:OP isn't taking on 200K debt. He said more like 100-120K. Plus he's a CPA with Big 4 auditing experience so if he doesn't get Biglaw he can explore some "taxguy"-type options.

OP, those are good schools, so if you really want LS, don't hesitate.


Already being a CPA with big 4 experience is all the more reason not to take on so much debt. You're foregoing an even greater salary than most aspiring law students for three years to get a degree where your chances are 2 in 3 you're going to come out of it with worse job prospects than when you entered.

If I were OP, I'd talk to the firm I'm working for right now and see if they'd rehire him/her at their firm after law school if things don't work out...as a safety valve. If they say they would, or if they would even give you a raise for having a JD, then maybe paying sticker would be worth it. The schools you talk about are decent schools, but even decent schools are not placing well these days.

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Robespierre
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Robespierre » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:49 pm

Yah, correct, there's definitely an issue as to whether it's worth it for him to move from accounting into law. I took him to mean he'd already made up his mind to do it.

iwantT14
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby iwantT14 » Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:49 pm

Robespierre wrote:Yah, correct, there's definitely an issue as to whether it's worth it for him to move from accounting into law. I took him to mean he'd already made up his mind to do it.


haven't made up my mind to do it yet. still trying to decide if i want to go to law school, do an mba or even stick it out at big4 for a few more years and leave to industry for a cushier 9-5 type accounting position.

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Chippy » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:56 pm

Stay in accounting. None of these schools is worth the debt. People here are calculating biglaw and assuming 100 percent of those biglaw associates are going to be able to pay their debt.

But what is you can't stand the work? What if you get sheath layoffed? Because you will have to work many years to pay down between 100-210k of debt at 8.5 percent interest w/ zero government subsidies during school time. People forget the latest debt deal eliminated the lower 6.5 (Federal Sub)/5.0 percent (Fed Perkins), subsidized loans that students were taking advantage of before. Interest will accrue during the three year JD period now. GradPLUS loans are toxic.

See: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scrip ... yments.cgi

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:30 pm

Chippy wrote:Stay in accounting. None of these schools is worth the debt. People here are calculating biglaw and assuming 100 percent of those biglaw associates are going to be able to pay their debt.

But what is you can't stand the work? What if you get sheath layoffed? Because you will have to work many years to pay down between 100-210k of debt at 8.5 percent interest w/ zero government subsidies during school time. People forget the latest debt deal eliminated the lower 6.5 (Federal Sub)/5.0 percent (Fed Perkins), subsidized loans that students were taking advantage of before. Interest will accrue during the three year JD period now. GradPLUS loans are toxic.

See: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scrip ... yments.cgi


To be fair, only $8500 per year worth of Stafford loans were subsidized. The impact on total payback time is minimal.

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Chippy » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:50 pm

Perkins was up to 8,000 dollars.
Fed Sub was up to 8,500 dollars.

Both are now gone. My whole debt loan was made up of these subsidized loans (10k a year, 30k total). So it is a big deal for a lot of people out there.

Slevin Kelevra 2011
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Slevin Kelevra 2011 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:49 am

In the down economy, you are going to need to be:
1) in the top 35% from BC;
2) in the top 30% from BU; and
3) in the top 25% from Fordham.


With these placement stats, you don't want to graduate with over 120k in debt. Luckily, you should be able to get some good aid from these schools if you have the stats. Also, if you create a budget and only borrow exactly what you need, graduating with under 120k in debt is doable.

However, as many have said, you'll want to try to get some money out of the schools first. Also note that Fordham is going to have a higher cost of living than BU, which in turn is going to have a higher cost of living than BC.

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby loblaw » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:38 pm

cinephile wrote:
NYC Law wrote:Just don't give ultimatums and don't be a dick, also don't be afraid to ask later into the cycle if you don't get anywhere at first. BU pretty much refused to negotiate with anyone prior to April or so, but closer to summer I was able to get them to open up to negotiations.
And yeah Fordham seems pretty open if you approach them the right way. It wouldn't hurt to throw all your offers out there and see what sticks, for the most part that peer group holds the most weight though.


Thinking back, I probably should have deposited at multiple places so that I could have continued negotiations closer to summer.


Absolutely. Deposits are powerful bargaining chips, and the money I lost in deposits was easily made up in scholarships. I used MN to get more from BU, then, BU to get more from BC, then BC to get more BU--this extended through mid July. I ended up with the same scholly as Cupidity (I'm assuming) with 15k/year + a 10k housing stipend my first year (off the waitlist at both BU and BC, mind you) and 16k/year at BC. I think mine worked out so well because I was very genuine in the way I approached the office. I truly couldn't decide between BU/BC and told them so in a very thoughtful way.

I think you can negotiate money from just acceptances, especially at peer schools. If it were me, I probably would have gone to BU or BC and let them know that you're leaning toward (or if you're really brave, planning to attend) a different school for X money-saving reason (shorter commute, can live at home, etc) but really like BU/BC for x reasons and could be easily swayed to commit if given a small scholarship.

+1 to everything Cupidity said--schools, especially very rank-conscious schools like BU and BC are concerned about their yield, and even moreso later in the the cycle. I actually think getting waitlisted helped me in that respect because both schools really wanted to start finalizing their classes when I was deciding.

Just my two cents.

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby WSJ_Law » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:13 pm

Fordham at Sticker. Yikes.

End self if below 25%ile.

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iwanta170
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby iwanta170 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:56 am

cinephile wrote:I had no luck negotiating with BU, and I had higher scholarships elsewhere. I did manage to negotiate a bit with a couple state schools, but not BU.

Same experience for me this cycle

I would retake OP. 167 is a good score but if you haven't taken the test the maximum amount of times (4) then you aren't doing it right unless you get in the 170's along the way.

Go up a few points and you'll get good money at some of these schools

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby blacklawboss » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:38 am

Fordham is the Shiznit :lol: (so biased)

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby LawSchoolChampion » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:49 am

25-30% is a pretty good BigLaw opportunity.

I mean, it's not 50%...but it's pretty good.

If you want to be in Boston, do it. As to NYC? There is a lot more competition as more people flock to NYC for BigLaw (including HLS).




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