BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

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iwantT14
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BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby iwantT14 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:49 am

I know people are going to say its a bad idea to pay sticker at these schools but these are some of my options right now. After looking on lawschooltransparency.com, I've warmed up to the idea of paying sticker at one of these schools (i have a decent amount of savings so lets say I could pay for 1 year tuition out of pocket). For the class of 2009, it looks like about 40-45% of graduates were getting biglaw type of jobs paying above $145k. Am i missing something here? The economy seems to have gotten much better since then and (hopefully) will continue to improve so why are ppl so against paying sticker here? IMO, a 40% chance at a biglaw type of job is worth it. Obv you would prefer to have better odds, but its not that bad. Thoughts?

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bport hopeful
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby bport hopeful » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:54 am

Do you have options that arent sticker? If so what are they?

iwantT14
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby iwantT14 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:56 am

rutgers law with a large scholly and in-state tuition

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bport hopeful
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby bport hopeful » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:57 am

iwantT14 wrote:rutgers law with a large scholly and in-state tuition

Thats tough. I might go with that though depending on where you want to live.

Those schools at sticker is a lot of money. But id way rather live in Boston or NYC that NJ.

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Jack Smirks
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Jack Smirks » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:01 pm

iwantT14 wrote: The economy seems to have gotten much better since then and (hopefully) will continue to improve

No.

iwantT14
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby iwantT14 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:03 pm

naterj wrote:
iwantT14 wrote: The economy seems to have gotten much better since then and (hopefully) will continue to improve

No.


how much worse are class of 2010 and 2011 numbers than class of 2009? sorry i havent kept up to date with the stats lately.

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Jack Smirks
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Jack Smirks » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:15 pm

iwantT14 wrote:
naterj wrote:
iwantT14 wrote: The economy seems to have gotten much better since then and (hopefully) will continue to improve

No.


how much worse are class of 2010 and 2011 numbers than class of 2009? sorry i havent kept up to date with the stats lately.

I don't know about the class of 2011 but it looks like for the three schools you mentioned the percentage of those landing biglawl actually dropped. I got lazy making the comparisons myself but you can check out the links from this thread. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=152447#p4259889

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Helmholtz
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:17 pm

iwantT14 wrote:I know people are going to say its a bad idea to pay sticker at these schools but these are some of my options right now. After looking on lawschooltransparency.com, I've warmed up to the idea of paying sticker at one of these schools (i have a decent amount of savings so lets say I could pay for 1 year tuition out of pocket). For the class of 2009, it looks like about 40-45% of graduates were getting biglaw type of jobs paying above $145k. Am i missing something here? The economy seems to have gotten much better since then and (hopefully) will continue to improve so why are ppl so against paying sticker here? IMO, a 40% chance at a biglaw type of job is worth it. Obv you would prefer to have better odds, but its not that bad. Thoughts?


Class of 2005/2006/2007/2008/2009/2010 - how many got a job at an NLJ250 firm:

Fordham: 33%/39%/36%/44%/29%/26% - average 34.5%
Boston University: 29%/unknown/39%/41%/35%/30% - average 34.8%
Boston College:32%/39%/37%/46%/35%/34% - average 37.2%

First, who knows where the economy is going. Let's say that by the time it matters for you, a third of the people at each school have access to biglaw. Do you want to put a $200,000+ wager on being in the third that gets a market-paying job? Let that number sink in and imagine it hanging over your head. You owe people $200,000 -- that's a ridiculously large amount of money.

Now think about what you would do if you're in the two-thirds that don't get access to such a high-paying job. The thing is, the vast majority of law school students enter law school with the delusion that they can beat the odds. But the truth is, a majority won't be able to. By necessity, roughly half of the class is going to below median. How many people below median do you think assumed they were going to be above median when they were thinking this through as a 0L? Probably a lot. Frankly, you don't really know how well you'll perform on a law school exam. Nobody does until they start taking them. Going to any of these schools at sticker is a high-priced gamble with a lot of the relevant information unknown.

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby cinephile » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:22 pm

I thought the likelihood of getting biglaw was more like 1/3. I have no data supporting this view - also, I wouldn't pay sticker. Since you have a bit in savings, I'm assuming you're employed? How would you feel about taking a year off, improving your application, and reapplying to the same schools - hopefully getting a scholarship this time?

ETA: looks like Helmholtz has the data for this.

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NYC Law
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:24 pm

It's not the worst investment you can make. After you add in public sector jobs, you have about a 50% chance of getting something that won't make you want to /self.

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Gemini » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:27 pm

First, there are more options in law than biglaw and public sector.

Second, Helmholtz's advice seems VERY spot on.

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NYC Law
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:32 pm

Gemini wrote:First, there are more options in law than biglaw and public sector.

Second, Helmholtz's advice seems VERY spot on.


Biglaw and the Public sector are the two primary ways of dealing with that level of debt, even moreso in high COL areas like Boston and NYC.

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Helmholtz
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:38 pm

OP, in the end, I would go with BC unless you need to be in NYC. Both Boston schools have done better in keeping the ship afloat during the shifting economic crisis than Fordham, and BC has been relatively impressive. Any New York City school that's only putting a quarter of its students into biglaw raises a number of red flags. Also, that historic data might be even more skewed toward BC and BU since they've traditionally placed better in Article III clerkships (I'm fairly certain this is right; correct me if I'm wrong). Most of the people getting those level of clerkships are capable of biglaw employment. I would have a very, very hard time giving my approval to a friend who wanted to do Fordham at sticker (maybe only a very hard time giving my approval to BU and a hard time giving my approval to BC).

iwantT14
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby iwantT14 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:55 pm

i would put the amount of debt for those schools at closer to 100-120k which is a much easier pill to swallow than 200k. also, i currently am an auditor for a big4 accounting firm and have completed my CPA exam, will this help during the recruiting process to get me into that 1/3rd of ppl getting biglaw jobs?

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Cupidity » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:11 pm

The chance is likely closer to 30% for Biglaw. Keep in mind, diversity hires skew the data somewhat. I wouldn't put too much stock in the Article III clerkship thing though, we are talking 5 clerks vs. 3 clerks, or something like that, so saying "twice as many" really means, one or two more students.

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Helmholtz
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:21 pm

Cupidity wrote:The chance is likely closer to 30% for Biglaw. Keep in mind, diversity hires skew the data somewhat. I wouldn't put too much stock in the Article III clerkship thing though, we are talking 5 clerks vs. 3 clerks, or something like that, so saying "twice as many" really means, one or two more students.


Right. I should have clarified that neither of those three schools is spectacular in clerkship placement. It might be a couple percentage points or so between BC and Fordham.

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Cupidity
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Cupidity » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:23 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Cupidity wrote:The chance is likely closer to 30% for Biglaw. Keep in mind, diversity hires skew the data somewhat. I wouldn't put too much stock in the Article III clerkship thing though, we are talking 5 clerks vs. 3 clerks, or something like that, so saying "twice as many" really means, one or two more students.


Right. I should have clarified that neither of those three schools is spectacular in clerkship placement. It might be a couple percentage points or so between BC and Fordham.


Yeah, and if my experience tells me anything, the small handful aren't being hired so much on the merit or prestige of the school, they are generally students who interned/externed for a judge during 1L or 2L and return as clerks.

I'd say pay sticker for BU/BC, they are great schools. I've only got $15k a year schoarship and I haven't regretted it yet.

iwantT14
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby iwantT14 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:26 pm

any tips on trying to get a scholarship with just average numbers for those schools (3.4/167)?

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Helmholtz
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:27 pm

iwantT14 wrote:any tips on trying to get a scholarship with just average numbers for those schools (3.4/167)?


Schools are generally pretty formulaic with how much scholarship money they hand out. Almost all the time will boil down to numbers.

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NYC Law
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:31 pm

I got about $10k from each school (minus BC) with very similar #s. None offered anything at first, but you just have to play them against each other. The decreased applications next cycle won't hurt either.

iwantT14
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby iwantT14 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:38 pm

NYC Law wrote:I got about $10k from each school (minus BC) with very similar #s. None offered anything at first, but you just have to play them against each other. The decreased applications next cycle won't hurt either.


if i could get 10k/yr from BC/BU, i would be pretty damn happy....that along with my savings will significantly decrease the amount i need to borrow

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Cupidity » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:43 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
iwantT14 wrote:any tips on trying to get a scholarship with just average numbers for those schools (3.4/167)?


Schools are generally pretty formulaic with how much scholarship money they hand out. Almost all the time will boil down to numbers.


Respectfully, I dissent. Once the school has accepted you, they have a vested interest in bringing you in because yield numbers impact their ranking. As such, once you are accepted most schools, Boston University included, you have wide latitude to negotiate scholarships. Initially, Boston University offered me no money, Fordham offered $7,500 per year, and Boston College waitlisted me. By the end of it all, I had scraped $55,000 out of Boston University and $60,000 out of Boston College by playing them against each other, and against other offers. See if you can get any seed money anywhere, even a couple thousand to a state school, then see if the other will match. I believe I spoke the words, "Look, I really love you all at Boston University, but it would be unreasonable for me to attend with only $30,000 scholarship, when Boston College is offering $60,000."

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Helmholtz
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:46 pm

Cupidity wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
iwantT14 wrote:any tips on trying to get a scholarship with just average numbers for those schools (3.4/167)?


Schools are generally pretty formulaic with how much scholarship money they hand out. Almost all the time will boil down to numbers.


Respectfully, I dissent. Once the school has accepted you, they have a vested interest in bringing you in because yield numbers impact their ranking. As such, once you are accepted most schools, Boston University included, you have wide latitude to negotiate scholarships. Initially, Boston University offered me no money, Fordham offered $7,500 per year, and Boston College waitlisted me. By the end of it all, I had scraped $55,000 out of Boston University and $60,000 out of Boston College by playing them against each other, and against other offers. See if you can get any seed money anywhere, even a couple thousand to a state school, then see if the other will match. I believe I spoke the words, "Look, I really love you all at Boston University, but it would be unreasonable for me to attend with only $30,000 scholarship, when Boston College is offering $60,000."


Maybe it's different in this range of schools. I remember when I was applying, generally (key word: generally), schools seemed to have strict numbers cutoffs for scholarships and often refused to budge. The people I've talked to didn't have much luck playing Michigan against UVA or Penn against Berkeley, e.g.

iwantT14
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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby iwantT14 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:47 pm

Cupidity wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
iwantT14 wrote:any tips on trying to get a scholarship with just average numbers for those schools (3.4/167)?


Schools are generally pretty formulaic with how much scholarship money they hand out. Almost all the time will boil down to numbers.


Respectfully, I dissent. Once the school has accepted you, they have a vested interest in bringing you in because yield numbers impact their ranking. As such, once you are accepted most schools, Boston University included, you have wide latitude to negotiate scholarships. Initially, Boston University offered me no money, Fordham offered $7,500 per year, and Boston College waitlisted me. By the end of it all, I had scraped $55,000 out of Boston University and $60,000 out of Boston College by playing them against each other, and against other offers. See if you can get any seed money anywhere, even a couple thousand to a state school, then see if the other will match. I believe I spoke the words, "Look, I really love you all at Boston University, but it would be unreasonable for me to attend with only $30,000 scholarship, when Boston College is offering $60,000."


haha thats pretty awesome man, good job! yeh im pretty sure rutgers law will give me atleast 10k/yr to go there so I should look to get them to match that.

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Re: BC/BU/Fordham at sticker?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:52 pm

iwantT14 wrote:haha thats pretty awesome man, good job! yeh im pretty sure rutgers law will give me atleast 10k/yr to go there so I should look to get them to match that.


Probably not, the other offers generally need to be from peer schools (or better). The peer group in this instance is GW/BU/BC/Fordham/ND (most of the state school in that range don't hold as much negotiation weight since they're known to be looser with cash). Even if you don't get offers from another school, sometimes an acceptance alone to a peer school can do the trick.




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