George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

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ihhwap1
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Postby ihhwap1 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:09 pm

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Last edited by ihhwap1 on Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Danteshek
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby Danteshek » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:09 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Come to think of it, I'm happy to "troll" for DC. I'm in Georgetown for the next three weeks staying with my fiancée. Nice place.

I don't think anyone is contesting that DC is a nice place. But OP is asking where to go to get a job, not where would be a nice place to live for three years and then become unemployed. The DC market is saturated with law students who want to live there because it's such a nice place. It's not "full of opportunities" for law students. You were, and are, giving terrible advice.


You took your shot. Why shouldn't he? I think you are being hypocritical.

daas786saad
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby daas786saad » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:33 pm

Thanks for all the advice everyone! GW gave me until Thursday to decide. I am going to wait for my fafsa to see if I get need based grants before deciding. The dean called me last night and layed out quite a few oppurtunities for me if I chose GW. He pretty much told me that I have to be in the top 5-10 of my class at MSU to have a shot at good Chicago firms but At GW, its not as tough especially if I focus on IP. If I choose GW it will be for IP simply because of the stronger job prospects.

Z3RO
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby Z3RO » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:39 pm

GW at sticker is tough, but a full ride scholly at MSU still has you taking out cost of living loans. Neither one will get you Chicago.

Chances of getting a worthwhile job out of MSU is almost 0.

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bk1
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby bk1 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:56 pm

Danteshek wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Come to think of it, I'm happy to "troll" for DC. I'm in Georgetown for the next three weeks staying with my fiancée. Nice place.

I don't think anyone is contesting that DC is a nice place. But OP is asking where to go to get a job, not where would be a nice place to live for three years and then become unemployed. The DC market is saturated with law students who want to live there because it's such a nice place. It's not "full of opportunities" for law students. You were, and are, giving terrible advice.


You took your shot. Why shouldn't he? I think you are being hypocritical.


There's a difference between going to UVA at sticker and going to GW at sticker.

CanadianWolf
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:12 pm

The safer option is MSU. If you do exceptionally well at MSU, then your options include possible Chicago employment & law review or transfer. But attending MSU is really about very low indebtedness upon graduation.
The 33/38 scholarship retention figure includes those with Trustee's scholarships who are required to maintain a 2.5 GPA. The 3.0/3.5 GPA requirements for your scholarship are reasonable & difficult, respectively. Overall, MSU scholarships have reasonable to very reasonable stipulations.
FWIW, MSU should advance in the rankings next year.

Danteshek
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby Danteshek » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:26 am

Not a very big difference.

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ndirish2010
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:48 am

Danteshek wrote:Not a very big difference.


LOL. It's funny how someone with as many posts as you can give objectively bad advice so often. The difference between UVA and GW at sticker is "not very big?" That's laughable. UVA probably costs less too with COL being insane in DC.

Danteshek
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby Danteshek » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:58 am

ndirish2010 wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Not a very big difference.


LOL. It's funny how someone with as many posts as you can give objectively bad advice so often. The difference between UVA and GW at sticker is "not very big?" That's laughable. UVA probably costs less too with COL being insane in DC.


Hardly. There are benefits to attending school in DC.

scammedhard
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby scammedhard » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:04 am

daas786saad wrote:Thanks for all the advice everyone! GW gave me until Thursday to decide. I am going to wait for my fafsa to see if I get need based grants before deciding. The dean called me last night and layed out quite a few oppurtunities for me if I chose GW. He pretty much told me that I have to be in the top 5-10 of my class at MSU to have a shot at good Chicago firms but At GW, its not as tough especially if I focus on IP. If I choose GW it will be for IP simply because of the stronger job prospects.

LOL. Yes, we all know that deans are very honest and truthful, especially when it comes down to "oppurtunities." When the dean calls you, he/she is not thinking about "opportunities" for you; rather, he/she is salivating about your 150K in tuition payments. Think about it? These "opportunities" deans describe have a long history of not materializing, and then YOU will be stuck with the bill... The GWU dean, fine, thanks; he/she already got paid upfront.

Don't be naive. There is no way you can pay back the 225K+ GWU is going to cost you (according to their own website: --LinkRemoved--). In fact, your only have one viable option here is MSU; and you better make sure you keep your scholarship because that is the only thing making MSU viable.

Best luck!

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ndirish2010
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:21 am

Scammedhard, I agree with you that MSU is the only viable option, but to say that OP would have "no way" to pay back the debt is hyperbole. OP would have a 25-33% chance of doing just fine. While I wouldn't bet the house on it, that is not "no chance."

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ndirish2010
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:21 am

Danteshek wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Not a very big difference.


LOL. It's funny how someone with as many posts as you can give objectively bad advice so often. The difference between UVA and GW at sticker is "not very big?" That's laughable. UVA probably costs less too with COL being insane in DC.


Hardly. There are benefits to attending school in DC.


High cost of living, few job prospects, having to deal with the constant political crap, 100 degree heat w/ 75 degree dewpoints in the summer...what am I missing?

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vanwinkle
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:22 am

ndirish2010 wrote:
Danteshek wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Not a very big difference.

LOL. It's funny how someone with as many posts as you can give objectively bad advice so often. The difference between UVA and GW at sticker is "not very big?" That's laughable. UVA probably costs less too with COL being insane in DC.

Hardly. There are benefits to attending school in DC.

High cost of living, few job prospects, having to deal with the constant political crap, 100 degree heat w/ 75 degree dewpoints in the summer...what am I missing?

You're missing the chance to do prestigious unpaid internships for federal agencies along with 40 other people who'll be gunning alongside you for the same 3 job openings after graduation.

Of course, many of them will lose to the UVA grad anyway.

Danteshek
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby Danteshek » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:28 am

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

"Citizenship in a Republic,"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

scammedhard
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby scammedhard » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:30 am

ndirish2010 wrote:Scammedhard, I agree with you that MSU is the only viable option, but to say that OP would have "no way" to pay back the debt is hyperbole. OP would have a 25-33% chance of doing just fine. While I wouldn't bet the house on it, that is not "no chance."

Yes, you are totally right, and I struggled a bit to write down what my thoughts were. TLSers are so hopeful that they sort of only hear/read/remember what they want to hear/read/remember, so I figured I would make it clear GWU is not a viable financial option.

What I meant to say is that the odds of paying back the debt are low, but I realize that "unusual" situations can always arise (like winning the lottery, getting a high-paying job, etc), thereby providing the OP a chance to pay back the debt. And that is my point: OP needs to realize that the only way he/she can pay back the 225K+ debt from GWU is by means on an unlikely event, not a likely scenario.

And that just deals with being able to service the debt; what the about the question: Is GWU at 225K+ worth it considering the likely scenario? The answer for that is absolutely not. Even if OP lands a high-paying job, it's going to take a long time to pay a quarter-million dollars.

Anyhow, thank for catching my exaggeration.

crazyblink653
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby crazyblink653 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:50 am

daas786saad wrote:Thanks for all the advice everyone! GW gave me until Thursday to decide. I am going to wait for my fafsa to see if I get need based grants before deciding. The dean called me last night and layed out quite a few oppurtunities for me if I chose GW. He pretty much told me that I have to be in the top 5-10 of my class at MSU to have a shot at good Chicago firms but At GW, its not as tough especially if I focus on IP. If I choose GW it will be for IP simply because of the stronger job prospects.


i would take anything the dean said with a grain of salt. of course he's going to tell you that you have better job prospects coming out of GW, because he wants your money. This is not a decision to take lightly, though I disagree with what some posters have said about the competition being harder at GW. While, sure, the students there will definitely have higher LSAT scores and probably higher GPAs, but the LSAT is a terrible predictor of law school success. The only reason it gets so much credence is because it's the best predictor that is AVAILABLE. You're still going to encounter people who are lazy, don't show up to class, think they can cram everything in the week before the final, etc. As long as you are diligent about studying you shouldn't have a problem cracking the top 1/3, even if your LSAT was below the median at your school (i can speak from experience).

My advice, though, is to take the full ride to MSU, study like crazy, finish at the top of the class and try to transfer. While this is by no means a given (as law school grades ARE incredibly unpredictable), at least you'll have the fallback of having very little debt to pay back upon graduation which, in this economy, should not be downplayed.

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kwais
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby kwais » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:01 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:Seems right in theory, but law school grades are far too arbitrary to count on that. Plenty of people who scored in the 150s can still write law school exams.


isn't this argument substantially undermined by the fact that most law schools have a very small range of LSATs? Would a school with equal amounts of 130s, 140s, 150s, 160s, 170s and 180s, really seem arbitrary come grade time? (serious question)

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kdw94780
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby kdw94780 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:09 pm

kwais wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Seems right in theory, but law school grades are far too arbitrary to count on that. Plenty of people who scored in the 150s can still write law school exams.


isn't this argument substantially undermined by the fact that most law schools have a very small range of LSATs? Would a school with equal amounts of 130s, 140s, 150s, 160s, 170s and 180s, really seem arbitrary come grade time? (serious question)



People want to think what they want to think. I KNOW from experience that competing against 168s, 3.7s is different than competing against 154s, 3.4s. Come on I know that if my summer class had more than 4 average Wash U students competing against 20 t2,3,4 students that I would not have gotten top 1% with less work that gets me top 40% at Wash U.

I would like to ask ndirish10 how does he know from experience? I am sure there are indeed plenty of t2,3, or even 4 students who finish at the top of their class after 1L year then transfer who do well as in average at ND. Out of those t2 and especially t3 and t4 transfers, I am curious how many actually can do as well in the higher ranked program.

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ndirish2010
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:06 pm

You guys are both right, I don't know enough transfers to adequately assess how T4 people do in transferring to the T25, but in general the LSAT does not seem to matter as much as you think it does. I got a 161 the first time, does that make me not qualified for the T25? There is a large variation in scores with people that have taken it 2, 3, or even 4 times.

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kwais
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby kwais » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:11 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:You guys are both right, I don't know enough transfers to adequately assess how T4 people do in transferring to the T25, but in general the LSAT does not seem to matter as much as you think it does. I got a 161 the first time, does that make me not qualified for the T25? There is a large variation in scores with people that have taken it 2, 3, or even 4 times.


The retake thing is an interesting and further complicating factor. However, you were able to go into the room and bang out a 168. Your 161 doesn't change that. There are some people, no matter what they do, they will never, ever, break certain thresholds.

sparty99
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby sparty99 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:35 pm

Go to MSU...Even if you don't want to live in Michigan, you can move to Chicago after graduation and get an easy job and study for the BAR then take the BAR....If you go to GW, you will just be seriously in debt...

keg411
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby keg411 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:19 am

kdw94780 wrote:
kwais wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Seems right in theory, but law school grades are far too arbitrary to count on that. Plenty of people who scored in the 150s can still write law school exams.


isn't this argument substantially undermined by the fact that most law schools have a very small range of LSATs? Would a school with equal amounts of 130s, 140s, 150s, 160s, 170s and 180s, really seem arbitrary come grade time? (serious question)



People want to think what they want to think. I KNOW from experience that competing against 168s, 3.7s is different than competing against 154s, 3.4s. Come on I know that if my summer class had more than 4 average Wash U students competing against 20 t2,3,4 students that I would not have gotten top 1% with less work that gets me top 40% at Wash U.

I would like to ask ndirish10 how does he know from experience? I am sure there are indeed plenty of t2,3, or even 4 students who finish at the top of their class after 1L year then transfer who do well as in average at ND. Out of those t2 and especially t3 and t4 transfers, I am curious how many actually can do as well in the higher ranked program.


I hate to break it to you, but there are people at T2's with mid-upper 16x LSAT's. :roll:
OP: re-take or go to MSU and be prepared to be in Michigan forever.

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kdw94780
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby kdw94780 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:36 am

keg411 wrote:
kdw94780 wrote:
kwais wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Seems right in theory, but law school grades are far too arbitrary to count on that. Plenty of people who scored in the 150s can still write law school exams.


isn't this argument substantially undermined by the fact that most law schools have a very small range of LSATs? Would a school with equal amounts of 130s, 140s, 150s, 160s, 170s and 180s, really seem arbitrary come grade time? (serious question)



People want to think what they want to think. I KNOW from experience that competing against 168s, 3.7s is different than competing against 154s, 3.4s. Come on I know that if my summer class had more than 4 average Wash U students competing against 20 t2,3,4 students that I would not have gotten top 1% with less work that gets me top 40% at Wash U.

I would like to ask ndirish10 how does he know from experience? I am sure there are indeed plenty of t2,3, or even 4 students who finish at the top of their class after 1L year then transfer who do well as in average at ND. Out of those t2 and especially t3 and t4 transfers, I am curious how many actually can do as well in the higher ranked program.


I hate to break it to you, but there are people at T2's with mid-upper 16x LSAT's. :roll:
OP: re-take or go to MSU and be prepared to be in Michigan forever.


Yep ppl who get full schollys like this guy, but T2s don't hand out full schollys like candy. 95% of MSU students at least won't have this guy's numbers.

Eco
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby Eco » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:16 pm

I'm a GW student and I'm telling u now, paying full-sticket for this school is not worth it. Get the full-ride. You will feel good getting a degree without paying anything. At that point, the 40-50k job would be a good job, as opposed to a reason to commit suicide.

daas786saad
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby daas786saad » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:52 pm

Thanks for all the advice everyone! I am still waiting on my FAFSA before deciding. I am hoping for some grants.

Eco, have you graduated? What area of the law did you specialize in?




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