George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

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daas786saad
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George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby daas786saad » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:09 pm

Hi, any help/advice would be appreciated. I have until tomorrow to decide. I was accepted off of the waitlist at GW but I have a full tuition scholarship to Michigan State. I want to focus on international law and GW is ranked 5th in the nation for international law. I am torn between GW (ranked 20) and Michigan State (ranked 95). I don't want to be tied down to working in Michigan but I am from Chicago and Michigan State students to do take the Illinois bar often. Can I justify the jump from no debt to over 200k debt? I am torn. Please help guide me in this important decision. Thanks everyone!

minuit
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby minuit » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:13 pm

are there any stips on the scholarahip? if not then MSU 100%

daas786saad
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby daas786saad » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:20 pm

I have the King Scholar Scholarship which requires a 3.0 to maintain the scholarship and 3.5 to maintain the King Scholar distinction. The distinction allows me to take special sections for courses and attend exclusive events. Its like being an honors student.

Any insight on why MSU 100%? Thanks for the quick reply!

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bk1
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby bk1 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:24 pm

GW at sticker is a bad idea. Firstly GW is a regional school in DC and thus not a very good idea for Chicago and, more importantly, GW at sticker is a ridiculously risky decision considering only about 1/4, maybe 1/3, of GW grads can pay off the sticker price of $225,000 debt in a reasonable amount of time.

On the other hand only go to MSU if you are okay with working in Michigan. While it is possible to get to Chicago from MSU, it is ridiculously hard. As an MSU student you are pretty much bottom of the pile. You are behind 3 midwest T14's (UChi/NU/UMich), other T14 kids with ties to Chicago, strong regional midwest schools (UIUC/ND/WUSTL), midwest state schools with better reps than MSU (UMinn/Iowa/IUB/OSU/etc), and second tier Chicago schools (DePaul/Loyola/Chicago-Kent/etc). To put it bluntly, your chance of getting a Chicago job out of MSU isn't something worth banking on.

So if you really want a decent chance for Chicago you should retake/reapply, but if you are okay with working Michigan then MSU with a full ride is a good deal (assuming the scholarship stipulations are lenient). There is pretty much no reason to take GW at sticker unless you have enough money to finance it independently and even then it's not a great idea since you could have used that money for something else.

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WhoIsDonDraper
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby WhoIsDonDraper » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:25 pm

Do NOT base your decision on international law prospects.

daas786saad
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby daas786saad » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:33 pm

bk1 thanks for the input. I don't mind working outside of Chicago but I am not terribly excited about working in Michigan. I am tempted by GW's location. If I went to GW I would not be able to afford it. I would have to take out loans and hope I landed a decent job. Does the alumni network and national recognition justify the risk? I want a job in a great law firm with a great salary and I just don't see that happening with a degree from MSU.

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bk1
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby bk1 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:40 pm

daas786saad wrote:bk1 thanks for the input. I don't mind working outside of Chicago but I am not terribly excited about working in Michigan. I am tempted by GW's location. If I went to GW I would not be able to afford it. I would have to take out loans and hope I landed a decent job. Does the alumni network and national recognition justify the risk? I want a job in a great law firm with a great salary and I just don't see that happening with a degree from MSU.


Your chances of getting a job like that out of GW are around 30%ish. That means the other 70% of the time or so you're going to be saddled with $200,000+ worth of debt and a job that pays you around $40-50k making it very difficult to pay off that 6 figure debt in a reasonable amount of time.

GW does give you a better shot at work in what is known as biglaw but it is not a good enough shot that people would recommend you go to GW at sticker. Of course it is far less likely to happen out of MSU but you are far less likely to be screwed by debt coming out of MSU which is why people are advising you to take MSU with a full ride over GW at sticker. If you really want to work at a large firm and make a large salary (aka biglaw) you should retake/reapply for better schools than GW or at least get a large enough scholarship to a place like GW to make it financially viable.

daas786saad
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby daas786saad » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:44 pm

Thanks so much for the advice!

traficante
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby traficante » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:03 pm

What percentage of students get 3.0 or greater at MSU?

daas786saad
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby daas786saad » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:08 pm

33/38 (87%) renewed their full-tuition awards after year one.

Danteshek
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby Danteshek » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:24 pm

I think you should go to GW. DC is full of opportunities. You'll figure something out.

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ndirish2010
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby ndirish2010 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:26 am

Honestly, just go to MSU. If you're at the very top of the class, transfer to Chicago/NU/Michigan...if you're not, you're getting a free degree and MSU has a good name in the state so you should be able to find SOMETHING.

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vanwinkle
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:52 pm

Danteshek wrote:I think you should go to GW. DC is full of opportunities. You'll figure something out.

Are you giving terrible advice on purpose now?

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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby Danteshek » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:02 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Danteshek wrote:I think you should go to GW. DC is full of opportunities. You'll figure something out.

Are you giving terrible advice on purpose now?


Easy for you to say, from your perch Hahvaahd.
Last edited by Danteshek on Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kdw94780
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby kdw94780 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:08 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:Honestly, just go to MSU. If you're at the very top of the class, transfer to Chicago/NU/Michigan...if you're not, you're getting a free degree and MSU has a good name in the state so you should be able to find SOMETHING.


I agree. Remember the quality of student is going to be much higher at GW than at MSU. You will likely find it much easier to get in the top of the class at MSU than at GW where it sounds like you'll be facing competition from kids who a) had a better LSAT/GPA and b) will be just as desperate as you to get good grades to pay off that debt.

Transferring won't be a bad idea if you can't get into a school like ND right away. Do you think you've reached your LSAT limit?

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ndirish2010
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby ndirish2010 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:08 pm

Danteshek wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Danteshek wrote:I think you should go to GW. DC is full of opportunities. You'll figure something out.

Are you giving terrible advice on purpose now?



Nope. I think the best choice here is GW, despite the debt.
You could have had a full ride at any number of lower ranked schools. I wonder why you didn't do it.
I think you're an idiot, btw.


Yes, I even troll for the DC market now in addition to Loyola.



FTFY.

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ndirish2010
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby ndirish2010 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:10 pm

kdw94780 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Honestly, just go to MSU. If you're at the very top of the class, transfer to Chicago/NU/Michigan...if you're not, you're getting a free degree and MSU has a good name in the state so you should be able to find SOMETHING.


I agree. Remember the quality of student is going to be much higher at GW than at MSU. You will likely find it much easier to get in the top of the class at MSU than at GW where it sounds like you'll be facing competition from kids who a) had a better LSAT/GPA and b) will be just as desperate as you to get good grades to pay off that debt.

Transferring won't be a bad idea if you can't get into a school like ND right away. Do you think you've reached your LSAT limit?


No, no, no (are you a 0L?)...OP don't listen to the "going to a lower ranked school makes it easier" argument.

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kdw94780
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby kdw94780 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:13 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
kdw94780 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Honestly, just go to MSU. If you're at the very top of the class, transfer to Chicago/NU/Michigan...if you're not, you're getting a free degree and MSU has a good name in the state so you should be able to find SOMETHING.


I agree. Remember the quality of student is going to be much higher at GW than at MSU. You will likely find it much easier to get in the top of the class at MSU than at GW where it sounds like you'll be facing competition from kids who a) had a better LSAT/GPA and b) will be just as desperate as you to get good grades to pay off that debt.

Transferring won't be a bad idea if you can't get into a school like ND right away. Do you think you've reached your LSAT limit?


No, no, no (are you a 0L?)...OP don't listen to the "going to a lower ranked school makes it easier" argument.


I'm a rising 2L at Wash U dude. Actually, at my school, I've come to the conclusion that it makes a huge difference. In addition to my summer internship, I did a study abroad program where I mostly competed against Case Western, Florida Coastal, Montana, New Hampshire, and Ave Maria students. Believe me it was by far my highest grade in a substantive course. I am usually stuck around the top 40% in class at Wash U. For this summer course, I got like top 1%. It also required much less work. Competing against students at your level is much tougher than students who couldn't learn how to take the LSAT or lack the focus and discipline.
Last edited by kdw94780 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ndirish2010
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby ndirish2010 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:15 pm

Seems right in theory, but law school grades are far too arbitrary to count on that. Plenty of people who scored in the 150s can still write law school exams.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby JamMasterJ » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:16 pm

WhoIsDonDraper wrote:Do NOT base your decision on international law prospects.

This

Danteshek
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby Danteshek » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:19 pm

Come to think of it, I'm happy to "troll" for DC. I'm in Georgetown for the next three weeks staying with my fiancée. Nice place.

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kdw94780
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby kdw94780 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:22 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:Seems right in theory, but law school grades are far too arbitrary to count on that. Plenty of people who scored in the 150s can still write law school exams.



Ha ha, sure but you have to admit the odds are much less. People who score in the 150s usually either a) lack the focus and discipline that's crucial to do well in class or b) are just not the sharpest

At Wash U, most students work incredibly hard and are incredibly bright. Therefore, you can work really hard and have a history of being a top student and still barely crack median. At Wash U, the students learn to synthesize. At lower ranked schools, students rely more on canned outlines.

If OP goes to GW, you have to concede his chances of getting in let's say top 1/3 will be much less than at MSU. There's a reason why law firms target higher ranked schools...lol they want the best students.

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vanwinkle
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:23 pm

Danteshek wrote:Come to think of it, I'm happy to "troll" for DC. I'm in Georgetown for the next three weeks staying with my fiancée. Nice place.

I don't think anyone is contesting that DC is a nice place. But OP is asking where to go to get a job, not where would be a nice place to live for three years and then become unemployed. The DC market is saturated with law students who want to live there because it's such a nice place. It's not "full of opportunities" for law students. You were, and are, giving terrible advice.

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ndirish2010
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby ndirish2010 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:26 pm

kdw94780 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Seems right in theory, but law school grades are far too arbitrary to count on that. Plenty of people who scored in the 150s can still write law school exams.



Ha ha, sure but you have to admit the odds are much less. People who score in the 150s usually either a) lack the focus and discipline that's crucial to do well in class or b) are just not the sharpest

At Wash U, most students work incredibly hard and are incredibly bright. Therefore, you can work really hard and have a history of being a top student and still barely crack median. At Wash U, the students learn to synthesize. At lower ranked schools, students rely more on canned outlines.

If OP goes to GW, you have to concede his chances of getting in let's say top 1/3 will be much less than at MSU. There's a reason why law firms target higher ranked schools...lol they want the best students.


But OP will have to be much better than top 1/3 to get a decent job from MSU. I still think OP should go to MSU, but only because I don't think GW is worth sticker for anyone.

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vanwinkle
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Re: George Washington (Sticker) v. Michigan State (Full Ride)

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:04 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:But OP will have to be much better than top 1/3 to get a decent job from MSU. I still think OP should go to MSU, but only because I don't think GW is worth sticker for anyone.

This.

Here's how I'd rank options OP asked about:

1) Go to MSU
2) Go to GWU

Here's how either compare to other options:

1) Retake/reapply
2) Go to either




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