when does it start to matter

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donawoe
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when does it start to matter

Postby donawoe » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:14 pm

I know everyone goes on about T6, T16,T20 etc. My question is at what point do the degrees from the schools stop having national mobility? Is anything below T30 regional or is that not until T50? I'm just trying to determine where in the rankings I want to stay and where to draw my cutoff.

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Grizz
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby Grizz » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:17 pm

All law schools are regional to varying degrees. Where you can get a job depends on 1) your grades, 2) our ties tithe region you're targeting, and 3) you're school's name brand recognition in that region. Some schools happen to he high on 3. There isn't a cutoff between national an regional schools.
Last edited by Grizz on Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ndirish2010
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby ndirish2010 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:20 pm

Yeah, T30s and even T50s can be national if you have the right grades. Top 1-5% at a T30 will get you looked at everywhere, you just have to be more proactive since only regional firms are likely to be at your OCI.

donawoe
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby donawoe » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:22 pm

Thanks Irish,
I know that if you're at the top of the class in a T50 you'd have some mobility. At the same time a degree from Cornell is going to have more reach than a degree from Tulane.
Just wasn't sure where in the rankings it shifted from primarily the school from which you got the degree to being in the top 10-15%.

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ndirish2010
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby ndirish2010 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:26 pm

donawoe wrote:Thanks Irish,
I know that if you're at the top of the class in a T50 you'd have some mobility. At the same time a degree from Cornell is going to have more reach than a degree from Tulane.
Just wasn't sure where in the rankings it shifted from primarily the school from which you got the degree to being in the top 10-15%.


You go to the best school you can get into with the assumption that wherever you go, the expected value of your class rank is median.

boilerplated
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby boilerplated » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:27 pm

It matters primarily in regards to the OCI hiring model. Outside of that, personal connections and networking savvy will matter a lot more than your school's perceived range of mobility. Don't go to law school expecting to be "placed" anywhere.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:37 pm

rad law wrote:All law schools are regional to varying degrees. Where you can get a job depends on 1) your grades, 2) our ties tithe region you're targeting, and 3) you're school's name brand recognition in that region. Some schools happen to he high on 3. There isn't a cutoff between national an regional schools.


Basically. People on this site like to issue magical cut offs for everything these days. There are no real cutoffs for anything, and following U.S. News Law School Rankings to a T will lead prospective law students into make horrible life decisions.

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minnbills
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby minnbills » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:15 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Basically. People on this site like to issue magical cut offs for everything these days. There are no real cutoffs for anything, and following U.S. News Law School Rankings to a T will lead prospective law students into make horrible life decisions.


What are you suggesting as an alternative? Target the best schools you can get into in the region you want to practice in? Focus on NLJ stats? Just curious.

Slevin Kelevra 2011
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby Slevin Kelevra 2011 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:16 pm

For biglaw, you want to go to one of the top 20 NLJ250 schools. See http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1. This is more important than "national".

If you want national mobility (not sure why you would. You should go to a school in the general region where you want to practice.), you'll want to attend a T5-14 school, although even then you are going to find the schools to be relatively regional.

The T14 could be considered national, and T14-30 would be considered super-regional (these schools are so closely ranked that every year there are fluctuations), and T30-50 are regional/local.

But I have to reiterate that if you want biglaw, you should only be looking at the top 20 from this list: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1.

duckmoney
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby duckmoney » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:24 pm

Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:For biglaw, you want to go to one of the top 20 NLJ250 schools. See http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1. This is more important than "national".

If you want national mobility (not sure why you would. You should go to a school in the general region where you want to practice.), you'll want to attend a T5-14 school, although even then you are going to find the schools to be relatively regional.

The T14 could be considered national, and T14-30 would be considered super-regional (these schools are so closely ranked that every year there are fluctuations), and T30-50 are regional/local.

But I have to reiterate that if you want biglaw, you should only be looking at the top 20 from this list: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1.


This is probably oversimplified. You can't just say that the T14 is national and the T30 is "super-regional" (which isn't true at all, think of Minnesota or Indiana).

No school is truly "national". If you go to school at Georgetown and grew up in New York you probably won't land a job in Seattle, no matter how good your grades are. On the other hand, most of the T14 schools will get you a job in New York just fine if you have the grades.

But yes, I agree that you should look at the NLJ250 placement lists if you want biglaw.

xyzbca
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby xyzbca » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:32 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
donawoe wrote:Thanks Irish,
I know that if you're at the top of the class in a T50 you'd have some mobility. At the same time a degree from Cornell is going to have more reach than a degree from Tulane.
Just wasn't sure where in the rankings it shifted from primarily the school from which you got the degree to being in the top 10-15%.


You go to the best school you can get into with the assumption that wherever you go, the expected value of your class rank is median.


I disagree with the bolded part. Outside of the T14, most 0L's would be better off choosing the best school that places in the market they want to work in.

Tulane over Wisconsin for New Orleans; Fordham over USC for NYC, Washington over WUSTL for Seattle, Alabama over BC for Birmingham etc....

I'm not suggesting students from better ranked schools can't end up in other markets but if you're Top 10% at BC odds are you are going to land a job through your OCI.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:39 am

If we're talking median grades then likely t14 + Vandy to some extent. If we're talking top 10% + Law Review then T30 easily and a good chunk of other schools as well.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:00 pm

minnbills wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Basically. People on this site like to issue magical cut offs for everything these days. There are no real cutoffs for anything, and following U.S. News Law School Rankings to a T will lead prospective law students into make horrible life decisions.


What are you suggesting as an alternative? Target the best schools you can get into in the region you want to practice in? Focus on NLJ stats? Just curious.


Prospective students should focus on researching schools that place graduates where they want to practice. Unless someone is comparing a T14ish school to a non-T14ish school, the NLJ250 rankings should be completely ignored.

Slevin Kelevra 2011
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby Slevin Kelevra 2011 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:00 pm

Aberzombie (really?), the exception to the rule is not the rule. If you want biglaw, focus on the NLJ250. However, if you want to work in a specific city, focus on the local schools (but even then, you'll want to get into a school that places well in biglaw). If anything, the NLJ250 list might be the only ranking that matters to anyone who wants biglaw.

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ahduth
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby ahduth » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:36 pm

Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:Aberzombie (really?), the exception to the rule is not the rule. If you want biglaw, focus on the NLJ250. However, if you want to work in a specific city, focus on the local schools (but even then, you'll want to get into a school that places well in biglaw). If anything, the NLJ250 list might be the only ranking that matters to anyone who wants biglaw.


I thought we'd generally come to an agreement that NLJ250 != big law?

Also:

Aberzombie1892 wrote:People on this site like to issue magical cut offs for everything these days.


A pair of enchanted jean shorts immediately came to mind.

flexityflex86
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby flexityflex86 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:45 pm

It matters from the start.

You can't predict grades.

You can predict your school's rank.

I'd say 1-3 are always going to be national as long as you don't blow it.

4-14 are largely all the same with minor fluctuations, but top third at Georgetown is going to be better than 50th percentile at Columbia unless we're talking about wanting to work in NYC where Columbia will still get a big boost.

What I've realized in the process is Rad Law's point about every school being somewhat regional is TCR. The only difference is schools have different regions largely based on rank.

1-3: 100% national.
4-14: Huge in home state, surrounding region and have national portability with decent grades.
16-20: Huge in home city/state (unless you're so-cal), and surrounding region. National with very good grades.
21-35: Big in city/nearest major city. Can transfer to rest of region with strong grades. National with law review.
36-50: Big in city if you have/near LR grades.
51 on: No portability. You'll get a job somewhere if you make LR.

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Grizz
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby Grizz » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:37 pm

Even the above is too simplistic. HYS isn't gonna get you a job in Mississippi, South Carolina, etc. if you're not from there. Even Vanderbilt can be very portable with not so good grades if you're from a market that really values ties. I know Cooley grads working in my hometown. Top third at GULC will not be better than top half at Columbia in my hometown if the Columbia guy is from here. There's just no simple formula or cutoffs.

Though the sentiment is correct that, out of the three factors I mentioned, you can only control the prestige of the school you go to.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:53 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:1-3: 100% national.
4-14: Huge in home state, surrounding region and have national portability with decent grades.
16-20: Huge in home city/state (unless you're so-cal), and surrounding region. National with very good grades.
21-35: Big in city/nearest major city. Can transfer to rest of region with strong grades. National with law review.
36-50: Big in city if you have/near LR grades.
51 on: No portability. You'll get a job somewhere if you make LR.

Using USNWR cutoffs are silly, especially when you're making bright lines based on round and arbitrary numbers. Minnesota is 20, UIUC and Notre Dame are 23; you really think Minnesota should be in a higher tier than the others? You think that Davis and Hastings are orders of magnitude different because of their rankings? C'mon, don't over simplify. Different schools are of different caliber in different regions and nationally, don't lump them together based on Bob Morse's criteria.

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Errzii
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby Errzii » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:07 pm

I don't believe there's really a definite range of schools or class rank that will guarantee you placement "anywhere". At best, "portability" is a luxury or a bonus and is not something you should rely on. My two cents is that you seriously consider where you want to practice and then make a decision about what law school to attend from there, rather than going to the highest ranked and/or assume you'll be in the top x% of your class then bank on portability of the degree.

flexityflex86
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby flexityflex86 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:08 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:1-3: 100% national.
4-14: Huge in home state, surrounding region and have national portability with decent grades.
16-20: Huge in home city/state (unless you're so-cal), and surrounding region. National with very good grades.
21-35: Big in city/nearest major city. Can transfer to rest of region with strong grades. National with law review.
36-50: Big in city if you have/near LR grades.
51 on: No portability. You'll get a job somewhere if you make LR.

Using USNWR cutoffs are silly, especially when you're making bright lines based on round and arbitrary numbers. Minnesota is 20, UIUC and Notre Dame are 23; you really think Minnesota should be in a higher tier than the others? You think that Davis and Hastings are orders of magnitude different because of their rankings? C'mon, don't over simplify. Different schools are of different caliber in different regions and nationally, don't lump them together based on Bob Morse's criteria.

I know it doesn't matter so much out of the top 14, but 21 and 35 isn't a big difference. Notre Dame isn't THAT much better than Minnesota. That's why I did 21-35.... I was trying to keep it simple. Obviously Fordham is better than Iowa, but I figured Fordham is say as much better than Iowa than Penn is than Georgetown - hence the 21-35 separation.

flexityflex86
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby flexityflex86 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:10 pm

rad law wrote:Even the above is too simplistic. HYS isn't gonna get you a job in Mississippi, South Carolina, etc. if you're not from there. Even Vanderbilt can be very portable with not so good grades if you're from a market that really values ties. I know Cooley grads working in my hometown. Top third at GULC will not be better than top half at Columbia in my hometown if the Columbia guy is from here. There's just no simple formula or cutoffs.

Though the sentiment is correct that, out of the three factors I mentioned, you can only control the prestige of the school you go to.

What's your hometown man? Where in Florida are you - north/south? I'd love to get a job in South Florida personally, but have no ties.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby yngblkgifted » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:11 pm

donawoe wrote:I know everyone goes on about T6, T16,T20 etc. My question is at what point do the degrees from the schools stop having national mobility? Is anything below T30 regional or is that not until T50? I'm just trying to determine where in the rankings I want to stay and where to draw my cutoff.



Egregious UCLA trolling..

flexityflex86
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby flexityflex86 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:14 pm

yngblkgifted wrote:
donawoe wrote:I know everyone goes on about T6, T16,T20 etc. My question is at what point do the degrees from the schools stop having national mobility? Is anything below T30 regional or is that not until T50? I'm just trying to determine where in the rankings I want to stay and where to draw my cutoff.



Egregious UCLA trolling..

dude you do these trolling comments all the time. it's obvious he just typed random numbers looking for advise - why not say top 14? too many people on this website are so uptight and sensitive about such silly things. i really hope the actual field is not like this. can we just say whether you go to vanderbilt or yale you go to a pretty good school, and then let your actual practice of law do the talking?

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Blessedassurance
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby Blessedassurance » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:21 pm

flexityflex86 wrote: Obviously Fordham is better than Iowa, but I figured Fordham is say as much better than Iowa than Penn is than Georgetown - hence the 21-35 separation.


It depends on the geographic region, which is what others have said. I doubt Fordham is better than Iowa if you're looking to practice in Iowa.

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northwood
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Re: when does it start to matter

Postby northwood » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:23 pm

go to the best school possible for you in the region you wan tto work.

But that doesnt always mean best school ( another one could offer you more guarenteed money, or something). Also- make sure that your decision is thought out- and you slept on it for a few days.




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