Indiana vs. Notre Dame

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NYCbound35
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby NYCbound35 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:15 pm

IU-B should be looked at as a slightly better alternative than IU-I and Cincy. If you are trying to compare it to stronger Midwest Tier 1s like ND, WUSTL and UIUC then it is going to lose every time.

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Verity
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby Verity » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:19 pm

NYCbound35 wrote:IU-B should be looked at as a slightly better alternative than IU-I and Cincy. If you are trying to compare it to stronger Midwest Tier 1s like ND, WUSTL and UIUC then it is going to lose every time.


The first part is wrong, IU-B does much better than those two.

The second part is true, for now. If they continue to move their medians, and its T25 spot gets people to recognize it as a T25, then it could conceivable move into T20 territory after about a decade or so. It all depends on who it can attract, and you never know how the dice will fall.

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RMstratosphere
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby RMstratosphere » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:21 pm

NYCbound35 wrote:IU-B should be looked at as a slightly better alternative than IU-I and Cincy. If you are trying to compare it to stronger Midwest Tier 1s like ND, WUSTL and UIUC then it is going to lose every time.


This type of hyperbole or misinformation is unhelpful.

downstream
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby downstream » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:22 pm

NYCbound35 wrote:IU-B should be looked at as a slightly better alternative than IU-I and Cincy. If you are trying to compare it to stronger Midwest Tier 1s like ND, WUSTL and UIUC then it is going to lose every time.



WUSTL got to where it is today by throwing money at anyone over a 165, then 166 the next year, then 167, etc. Look back in the USNWR, it was not a t20 in the 90's or even the early 2000's. Schools throw money to get better 1L stats to improve in the rankings. Getting upset at schools that do this is akin to getting angry at ballplayers that lift weights to hit more home runs. It's the ante for doing better at the statistical measure that matters, nothing more, nothing less. If ND had a $35m to spend on scholly's, they would be doing the exact same thing.

ND is the stronger law school. UIUC is the stronger law school. If you go to either school expecting a easy path to Chicago, you are gravely mistaken. At that point, the schools become a little more like IUB regardless of the fact that they have a stronger student body. You're going to have to hustle to get Chicago Biglaw if you are below top 10% at any of these schools.

downstream
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby downstream » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:26 pm

WSJ_Law wrote:I just hope for IU-B students that they actually attain T25-calibre placement



What does "T25 caliber [sic] placement" even mean? I really don't think there is such a thing.

flexityflex86
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby flexityflex86 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:26 pm

NYCbound35 wrote:IU-B should be looked at as a slightly better alternative than IU-I and Cincy. If you are trying to compare it to stronger Midwest Tier 1s like ND, WUSTL and UIUC then it is going to lose every time.

Is Fordham slightly better than Hofstra?

This comment is way off base. When I was visiting and doing a road trip through the area, the consensus even in Indianapolis was that IU: I is where you go if you can't get into IU: B.

I agree that it is not in the same league as WUSTL. I also think this limits how high IU: B can surge as they are not going to get many 170s with 120k when WUSTL, which is considered a much better school levies out 75k and 90k like it's nobody's business, and has a much lower COL as Bloomington's real estate is driven up by all the dumb rich kids who go to UG there.

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RMstratosphere
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby RMstratosphere » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:31 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:
NYCbound35 wrote:IU-B should be looked at as a slightly better alternative than IU-I and Cincy. If you are trying to compare it to stronger Midwest Tier 1s like ND, WUSTL and UIUC then it is going to lose every time.

Is Fordham slightly better than Hofstra?

This comment is way off base. When I was visiting and doing a road trip through the area, the consensus even in Indianapolis was that IU: I is where you go if you can't get into IU: B.

I agree that it is not in the same league as WUSTL. I also think this limits how high IU: B can surge as they are not going to get many 170s with 120k when WUSTL, which is considered a much better school levies out 75k and 90k like it's nobody's business, and has a much lower COL as Bloomington's real estate is driven up by all the dumb rich kids who go to UG there.


Finally, an accurate characterization of IU. Seriously.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:32 pm

WUSTL got to where it is today by throwing money at anyone over a 165, then 166 the next year, then 167, etc. Look back in the USNWR, it was not a t20 in the 90's or even the early 2000's. Schools throw money to get better 1L stats to improve in the rankings. Getting upset at schools that do this is akin to getting angry at ballplayers that lift weights to hit more home runs. It's the ante for doing better at the statistical measure that matters, nothing more, nothing less. If ND had a $35m to spend on scholly's, they would be doing the exact same thing.

ND is the stronger law school. UIUC is the stronger law school. If you go to either school expecting a easy path to Chicago, you are gravely mistaken. At that point, the schools become a little more like IUB regardless of the fact that they have a stronger student body. You're going to have to hustle to get Chicago Biglaw if you are below top 10% at any of these schools.


We give out tons of scholarships- honestly, more than half the people in my class probably have at least 18K scholarship. Not as much as IU, of course, but enough to keep you out of 100K debt range with the cheap South Bend cost of living. Nobody said there was an "easy path to Chicago" from either school, but it is far easier from NDLS than IU. Our NLJ placement, BTW, took a much smaller hit than UIUC and WUSTL for the c/o 2010.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:33 pm

RMstratosphere wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:
NYCbound35 wrote:IU-B should be looked at as a slightly better alternative than IU-I and Cincy. If you are trying to compare it to stronger Midwest Tier 1s like ND, WUSTL and UIUC then it is going to lose every time.

Is Fordham slightly better than Hofstra?

This comment is way off base. When I was visiting and doing a road trip through the area, the consensus even in Indianapolis was that IU: I is where you go if you can't get into IU: B.

I agree that it is not in the same league as WUSTL. I also think this limits how high IU: B can surge as they are not going to get many 170s with 120k when WUSTL, which is considered a much better school levies out 75k and 90k like it's nobody's business, and has a much lower COL as Bloomington's real estate is driven up by all the dumb rich kids who go to UG there.


Finally, an accurate characterization of IU. Seriously.


Haha +1. Bloomington is a nice college town though. IU yield protected me.

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NYCbound35
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby NYCbound35 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:34 pm

RMstratosphere wrote:
NYCbound35 wrote:IU-B should be looked at as a slightly better alternative than IU-I and Cincy. If you are trying to compare it to stronger Midwest Tier 1s like ND, WUSTL and UIUC then it is going to lose every time.


This type of hyperbole or misinformation is unhelpful.


via Law School Transparency

IU-B has 59% of their grads reporting salary data - median income 99k
Cincinatti has 59% of their grads reporting salary data - median income 115k

The only hyperbole or misinformation I used were the words slightly better (to Cincinnati at least, IU-I had virtually no info on LST). Both are decent options if they come at a reasonable price and you are willing to work in Indianapolis/Cincinnati/other nearby markets. Nothing more, nothing less.

downstream
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby downstream » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:35 pm

This is the odd conundrum:

WUSTL, UIUC and ND are better schools than IUB in terms of student quality, prestige, and everything else that matters. However, none of these schools place so much considerably better than IUB (or even Wisconsin/Iowa/OSU) so I have to wonder what the real trade off is.

Texas, Vandy, UCLA have tangibly better options and outcomes than IUB or any school ranked in the mid to high 20's. Obviously the T14 is on a different level altogether. Tell me what opportunities at UIUC/ND/WUSTL are so much better than IUB's? I just don't see it.

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RMstratosphere
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby RMstratosphere » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:37 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
WUSTL got to where it is today by throwing money at anyone over a 165, then 166 the next year, then 167, etc. Look back in the USNWR, it was not a t20 in the 90's or even the early 2000's. Schools throw money to get better 1L stats to improve in the rankings. Getting upset at schools that do this is akin to getting angry at ballplayers that lift weights to hit more home runs. It's the ante for doing better at the statistical measure that matters, nothing more, nothing less. If ND had a $35m to spend on scholly's, they would be doing the exact same thing.

ND is the stronger law school. UIUC is the stronger law school. If you go to either school expecting a easy path to Chicago, you are gravely mistaken. At that point, the schools become a little more like IUB regardless of the fact that they have a stronger student body. You're going to have to hustle to get Chicago Biglaw if you are below top 10% at any of these schools.


We give out tons of scholarships- honestly, more than half the people in my class probably have at least 18K scholarship. Not as much as IU, of course, but enough to keep you out of 100K debt range with the cheap South Bend cost of living. Nobody said there was an "easy path to Chicago" from either school, but it is far easier from NDLS than IU. Our NLJ placement, BTW, took a much smaller hit than UIUC and WUSTL for the c/o 2010.


I don't want to parse too finely, but what is NDLS's placement like in Chicago? Is it really "far easier" to get Chicago biglaw from NDLS than IU? Better than ~10% in Chicago NLJ250?

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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby downstream » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:38 pm

In truth, ITE just devastated schools ranked in the 20's. They command high tuition rates but I think their placement has really trickled off now that firms have contracted their recruiting. Even Paul Pless at UIUC said that they have really gotten overlooked compared to UMich/UC/NU. UIUC and NDLS will place better than IUB but is it so much better that you shouldnt take a full ride from IUB? I wonder about this.

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NYCbound35
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby NYCbound35 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:40 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:
NYCbound35 wrote:IU-B should be looked at as a slightly better alternative than IU-I and Cincy. If you are trying to compare it to stronger Midwest Tier 1s like ND, WUSTL and UIUC then it is going to lose every time.

Is Fordham slightly better than Hofstra?

This comment is way off base. When I was visiting and doing a road trip through the area, the consensus even in Indianapolis was that IU: I is where you go if you can't get into IU: B.

I agree that it is not in the same league as WUSTL. I also think this limits how high IU: B can surge as they are not going to get many 170s with 120k when WUSTL, which is considered a much better school levies out 75k and 90k like it's nobody's business, and has a much lower COL as Bloomington's real estate is driven up by all the dumb rich kids who go to UG there.


maybe I was off about IU-I...there is just no data for me to back my claims and I will concede on that issue. But your Fordham comparison has absolutely no merit.

Fordham...94% reporting with a 160k median income
Hofstra...34% reporting with 90k median income


And before I get jumped on because this is 2009 data before ITE; I am only posting the data for comparisons sake, not because I believe that half the kids at Fordham are making that kind of money. I don't know if this is a fair assumption, but I am going forward with the belief that schools in similar markets were effected similarly (proportionally of course) by the economic downturn, so I think that comparisons with these numbers still hold merit

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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby downstream » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:40 pm

I am certain of the fact that NDLS does not have far better placement in Chicago. Notre Dame undergrad runs Chicago especially in finance and ND ugrads get stellar jobs in Chicago. I don't think the same is true for the law school.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:41 pm

I don't want to parse too finely, but what is NDLS's placement like in Chicago? Is it really "far easier" to get Chicago biglaw from NDLS than IU? Better than ~10% in Chicago NLJ250?


I'd be interested in the actual percentage myself (our CDO probably wouldn't tell me). How many (and which?) Chicago firms are at IU's OCI?

downstream
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby downstream » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:42 pm

NYCbound35 wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:
NYCbound35 wrote:IU-B should be looked at as a slightly better alternative than IU-I and Cincy. If you are trying to compare it to stronger Midwest Tier 1s like ND, WUSTL and UIUC then it is going to lose every time.

Is Fordham slightly better than Hofstra?

This comment is way off base. When I was visiting and doing a road trip through the area, the consensus even in Indianapolis was that IU: I is where you go if you can't get into IU: B.

I agree that it is not in the same league as WUSTL. I also think this limits how high IU: B can surge as they are not going to get many 170s with 120k when WUSTL, which is considered a much better school levies out 75k and 90k like it's nobody's business, and has a much lower COL as Bloomington's real estate is driven up by all the dumb rich kids who go to UG there.


maybe I was off about IU-I...there is just no data for me to back my claims and I will concede on that issue. But your Fordham comparison has absolutely no merit.

Fordham...94% reporting with a 160k median income
Hofstra...34% reporting with 90k median income


And before I get jumped on because this is 2009 data before ITE; I am only posting the data for comparisons sake, not because I believe that half the kids at Fordham are making that kind of money. I don't know if this is a fair assumption, but I am going forward with the belief that schools in similar markets were effected similarly (proportionally of course) by the economic downturn, so I think that comparisons with these numbers still hold merit



IUB gets doubly screwed with pre-ITE data. First, their ranking pre-ITE was not where it is today and they flat out were not recruiting the types of kids that go there now. So the reportable numbers from pre-ITE do not reflect the increased student body of ITE due to IU's big donation and rankings bump. It is not an apples to apples comparison.

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RMstratosphere
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby RMstratosphere » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:44 pm

NYCbound35 wrote:
RMstratosphere wrote:
NYCbound35 wrote:IU-B should be looked at as a slightly better alternative than IU-I and Cincy. If you are trying to compare it to stronger Midwest Tier 1s like ND, WUSTL and UIUC then it is going to lose every time.


This type of hyperbole or misinformation is unhelpful.


via Law School Transparency

IU-B has 59% of their grads reporting salary data - median income 99k
Cincinatti has 59% of their grads reporting salary data - median income 115k

The only hyperbole or misinformation I used were the words slightly better (to Cincinnati at least, IU-I had virtually no info on LST). Both are decent options if they come at a reasonable price and you are willing to work in Indianapolis/Cincinnati/other nearby markets. Nothing more, nothing less.


IU-B had twice as many students reporting private sector income, more overall students reporting, fewer students unemployed and placements in Article III Clerkships (Cincinnati didn't). I won't even start on IU-I

crazyblink653
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby crazyblink653 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:45 pm

downstream wrote:I am certain of the fact that NDLS does not have far better placement in Chicago. Notre Dame undergrad runs Chicago especially in finance and ND ugrads get stellar jobs in Chicago. I don't think the same is true for the law school.


not sure how undergrad placement really factors in here...seems like a mask for NDLS's otherwise average job placement. In fact, I think most of NDLS's "superior" reputation to IUB derives more from the quality of its undergrad reputation than from a vastly superior legal education.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:46 pm

crazyblink653 wrote:
downstream wrote:I am certain of the fact that NDLS does not have far better placement in Chicago. Notre Dame undergrad runs Chicago especially in finance and ND ugrads get stellar jobs in Chicago. I don't think the same is true for the law school.


not sure how undergrad placement really factors in here...seems like a mask for NDLS's otherwise average job placement. In fact, I think most of NDLS's "superior" reputation to IUB derives more from the quality of its undergrad reputation than from a vastly superior legal education.


No, it comes from the fact that NDLS has been a T25 for a long time, has placed more than double (sometimes triple) IU into NLJ 250 firms consistently, etc...

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RMstratosphere
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby RMstratosphere » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:47 pm

crazyblink653 wrote:
downstream wrote:I am certain of the fact that NDLS does not have far better placement in Chicago. Notre Dame undergrad runs Chicago especially in finance and ND ugrads get stellar jobs in Chicago. I don't think the same is true for the law school.


not sure how undergrad placement really factors in here...seems like a mask for NDLS's otherwise average job placement. In fact, I think most of NDLS's "superior" reputation to IUB derives more from the quality of its undergrad reputation than from a vastly superior legal education.


IU-B undergrad is a public ivy. Notre Dame undergrad is... well endowed.

crazyblink653
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby crazyblink653 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:47 pm

RMstratosphere wrote:
NYCbound35 wrote:
RMstratosphere wrote:
NYCbound35 wrote:IU-B should be looked at as a slightly better alternative than IU-I and Cincy. If you are trying to compare it to stronger Midwest Tier 1s like ND, WUSTL and UIUC then it is going to lose every time.


This type of hyperbole or misinformation is unhelpful.


via Law School Transparency

IU-B has 59% of their grads reporting salary data - median income 99k
Cincinatti has 59% of their grads reporting salary data - median income 115k

The only hyperbole or misinformation I used were the words slightly better (to Cincinnati at least, IU-I had virtually no info on LST). Both are decent options if they come at a reasonable price and you are willing to work in Indianapolis/Cincinnati/other nearby markets. Nothing more, nothing less.


IU-B had twice as many students reporting private sector income, more overall students reporting, fewer students unemployed and placements in Article III Clerkships (Cincinnati didn't). I won't even start on IU-I


in addition, it's certainly accurate that IUB primarily places in regional markets whic, coincidentally, have a lower starting saary than most other markets (e.g. starting salary in Indy biglaw is $100k. not an excuse, but may explain lower median income.

downstream
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby downstream » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:49 pm

I dunno about the IUB being a public ivy idea...

Doubt there are many people that would put it on the level of Cal/Michigan/Virginia/UCLA

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ndirish2010
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:50 pm

RMstratosphere wrote:
crazyblink653 wrote:
downstream wrote:I am certain of the fact that NDLS does not have far better placement in Chicago. Notre Dame undergrad runs Chicago especially in finance and ND ugrads get stellar jobs in Chicago. I don't think the same is true for the law school.


not sure how undergrad placement really factors in here...seems like a mask for NDLS's otherwise average job placement. In fact, I think most of NDLS's "superior" reputation to IUB derives more from the quality of its undergrad reputation than from a vastly superior legal education.


IU-B undergrad is a public ivy. Notre Dame undergrad is... well endowed.


Besides my general dislike for the term "public ivy," IU hardly fits that definition. It is a solid public school, but it is like the 7th best school in the Big Ten (NU, Michigan, Wisconsin, OSU, Minnesota, Purdue...maybe even Penn State). Great music program, though.

flexityflex86
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Re: Indiana vs. Notre Dame

Postby flexityflex86 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:51 pm

@RM: Are you joking? Public Ivy?




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