University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

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puravidamae
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University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby puravidamae » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:29 pm

First of all I am quite happy with my decision to attend the University of Arizona with in-state tuition. However, I am fully aware that most posters on this site still think this is a terrible decision. I will have to fund my education primarily by taking out loans, although I do have a little savings that will basically cover the cost of living for a year. In-state tuition at Arizona is 26K per year and cost of living is around 12-14k. Is this really that bad of a decision? Thanks

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:33 pm

puravidamae wrote:First of all I am quite happy with my decision to attend the University of Arizona with in-state tuition. However, I am fully aware that most posters on this site still think this is a terrible decision. I will have to fund my education primarily by taking out loans, although I do have a little savings that will basically cover the cost of living for a year. In-state tuition at Arizona is 26K per year and cost of living is around 12-14k. Is this really that bad of a decision? Thanks


Do you want to be an attorney? Would you be just as fulfilled in a different career?

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Veyron
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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby Veyron » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:38 pm

puravidamae wrote:First of all I am quite happy with my decision to attend the University of Arizona with in-state tuition. However, I am fully aware that most posters on this site still think this is a terrible decision. I will have to fund my education primarily by taking out loans, although I do have a little savings that will basically cover the cost of living for a year. In-state tuition at Arizona is 26K per year and cost of living is around 12-14k. Is this really that bad of a decision? Thanks


U of A is a chill school but yah, probably. Also, be damn sure you want to work in AZ, because thats where the opportunities will be outside of the top 10%.

puravidamae
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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby puravidamae » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:46 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
puravidamae wrote:First of all I am quite happy with my decision to attend the University of Arizona with in-state tuition. However, I am fully aware that most posters on this site still think this is a terrible decision. I will have to fund my education primarily by taking out loans, although I do have a little savings that will basically cover the cost of living for a year. In-state tuition at Arizona is 26K per year and cost of living is around 12-14k. Is this really that bad of a decision? Thanks


Do you want to be an attorney? Would you be just as fulfilled in a different career?


Yes I want to be an attorney. I wanted to be an attorney before undergrad, during undergrad, and now 5 years after undergrad...I still want it. It is hard to say if I would be just as fulfilled in a different career. My concern is not if I will enjoy being an attorney or not rather my concerns are purely financial. Practicing law could make me the most happy person in the world, but if I cannot get a job that will allow me to afford paying off my loans and living a decent life I will certainly be miserable. Who wouldn't be miserable if they were in debt up to their eyeballs with no way to survive.

puravidamae
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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby puravidamae » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:49 pm

Veyron wrote:
puravidamae wrote:First of all I am quite happy with my decision to attend the University of Arizona with in-state tuition. However, I am fully aware that most posters on this site still think this is a terrible decision. I will have to fund my education primarily by taking out loans, although I do have a little savings that will basically cover the cost of living for a year. In-state tuition at Arizona is 26K per year and cost of living is around 12-14k. Is this really that bad of a decision? Thanks


U of A is a chill school but yah, probably. Also, be damn sure you want to work in AZ, because thats where the opportunities will be outside of the top 10%.


I have lived in AZ my whole life and don't mind staying here, the only other place I would want to live is maybe San Diego. So still terrible decision eh? Thanks for the input Veyron.

scammedhard
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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby scammedhard » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:55 pm

puravidamae wrote:First of all I am quite happy with my decision to attend the University of Arizona with in-state tuition. However, I am fully aware that most posters on this site still think this is a terrible decision. I will have to fund my education primarily by taking out loans, although I do have a little savings that will basically cover the cost of living for a year. In-state tuition at Arizona is 26K per year and cost of living is around 12-14k. Is this really that bad of a decision? Thanks

So you basically are going to invest 3 years of your life and about 120K for a JD of UofA...

Looking at the LST data, I think it's a terrible idea.
--LinkRemoved--
See how large gray area is, more than 50% of the 2009 class; and see how small the blue area is, only 35% of the 2009 class. So, a positive outcome for you would be to land in the blue area and make their median (115K). In that case, you will struggle to pay back your debt, but will manage to do it. But what if you land in the much bigger gray area? How much do they make? Are they even working as lawyers? Remember that more than half of the 2009 class ended up there.

EDIT

Wait. It gets even worse. Part of the blue area is Clerkships. CanadianWolf got suspicious that its reported number was so high compared to other school, so he called and ask about the data. UofA replied that the actual number is 5.5% not 12.3%. So the blue are is probable even smaller than 30%. And about the other data then? Is it accurate? Maybe the blue area is even smaller... Good luck with that!
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=154423

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Veyron
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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby Veyron » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:13 pm

puravidamae wrote:
Veyron wrote:
puravidamae wrote:First of all I am quite happy with my decision to attend the University of Arizona with in-state tuition. However, I am fully aware that most posters on this site still think this is a terrible decision. I will have to fund my education primarily by taking out loans, although I do have a little savings that will basically cover the cost of living for a year. In-state tuition at Arizona is 26K per year and cost of living is around 12-14k. Is this really that bad of a decision? Thanks


U of A is a chill school but yah, probably. Also, be damn sure you want to work in AZ, because thats where the opportunities will be outside of the top 10%.


I have lived in AZ my whole life and don't mind staying here, the only other place I would want to live is maybe San Diego. So still terrible decision eh? Thanks for the input Veyron.


Hmmm, still kinda a bad decision. I have friends at both schools that are doing OK but they are highly ranked and report that opportunities are meager for the majority. If you want to be an attorney as badly as you claim prove it by sinking some more time and effort into the LSAT and then go on a substantial scholarship.

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby robotclubmember » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:56 pm

scammedhard wrote:
puravidamae wrote:First of all I am quite happy with my decision to attend the University of Arizona with in-state tuition. However, I am fully aware that most posters on this site still think this is a terrible decision. I will have to fund my education primarily by taking out loans, although I do have a little savings that will basically cover the cost of living for a year. In-state tuition at Arizona is 26K per year and cost of living is around 12-14k. Is this really that bad of a decision? Thanks

So you basically are going to invest 3 years of your life and about 120K for a JD of UofA...

Looking at the LST data, I think it's a terrible idea.
--LinkRemoved--
See how large gray area is, more than 50% of the 2009 class; and see how small the blue area is, only 35% of the 2009 class. So, a positive outcome for you would be to land in the blue area and make their median (115K). In that case, you will struggle to pay back your debt, but will manage to do it. But what if you land in the much bigger gray area? How much do they make? Are they even working as lawyers? Remember that more than half of the 2009 class ended up there.

EDIT

Wait. It gets even worse. Part of the blue area is Clerkships. CanadianWolf got suspicious that its reported number was so high compared to other school, so he called and ask about the data. UofA replied that the actual number is 5.5% not 12.3%. So the blue are is probable even smaller than 30%. And about the other data then? Is it accurate? Maybe the blue area is even smaller... Good luck with that!
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=154423


Lol.

The stats may seem harsh, but you'd be a fool to not think long and hard about them OP.

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Glock
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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby Glock » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:33 pm

If:

1. You do not mind working in Arizona
2. You cannot retake and get to a higher school
3. You think you can realistically achieve academic success

Then:

Arizona is a pretty good school. In-state tuition is a fantastic value and is probably the best value you will get in the legal education market unless you get into the T14. Grading curves in law school are harder than you think. If you end up out of the top 33% your job prospects are very bad. If you end up below median your job prospects are terrible and you would have certainly been better off not going.

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby Veyron » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:01 pm

Glock wrote:If:

1. You do not mind working in Arizona
2. You cannot retake and get to a higher school
3. You think you can realistically achieve academic success

Then:

Arizona is a pretty good school. In-state tuition is a fantastic value and is probably the best value you will get in the legal education market unless you get into the T14. Grading curves in law school are harder than you think. If you end up out of the top 33% your job prospects are very bad. If you end up below median your job prospects are terrible and you would have certainly been better off not going.


I would replace "higher ranked school" with T-14, UCLA, Vandy, Texas. U of A places as well as any lower ranked school.

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby Glock » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:13 pm

Veyron wrote:
Glock wrote:If:

1. You do not mind working in Arizona
2. You cannot retake and get to a higher school
3. You think you can realistically achieve academic success

Then:

Arizona is a pretty good school. In-state tuition is a fantastic value and is probably the best value you will get in the legal education market unless you get into the T14. Grading curves in law school are harder than you think. If you end up out of the top 33% your job prospects are very bad. If you end up below median your job prospects are terrible and you would have certainly been better off not going.


I would replace "higher ranked school" with T-14, UCLA, Vandy, Texas. U of A places as well as any lower ranked school.


QFT. It is what I meant.

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby BeautifulSW » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:55 pm

I don't know how many posters here know very much about Arizona...not many, I suspect. It's an incredible state and has a much lower than average lawyer to population ratio. I made my life in N.Mex. But had I not, AZ would have been very, very high on the list. True, the state's economy is in the tank and at the moment it's being governed by a cabal of ultra-right wing wackos but the state should return to the mean one of these days. If you want to live and work in Arizona the University Of is a good school to go to.

Now, having said that, Rogers School of Law IS overpriced. No question about it. But shoot, folks, what law degree ISN'T overpriced? UofA still runs much less than most schools around its rank. I would NOT go there these days but I date from a time when in-state tuition at UNM Law ran less than you all are paying for BOOKS so you need to adjust for "old fogeyism". Once over that hump, yes, I'd say " Go."

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Veyron
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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby Veyron » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:59 pm

^ Lower than average lawyer/pop ratio but also a lower than average large company corporate HQ/pop ratio which means that the demand for legal services (expecially the high end ones that make it easy to pay off debt) is also lower than average. That being said, yes, the relatively small glut of lawyers does mean that the average U of A grad has a better shot of getting a job than say, someone at a comparably ranked school.

aldoleopold
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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby aldoleopold » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:12 pm

The U of A places well in Tucson and Phoenix, Arizona, and has a sizable alumni imprint in parts of Texas, Nevada, Southern California and the Bay Area. If you do well, you are sure to land a 112K-120K gig, which coupled with the low cost of living in Tucson and parts of Phoenix will more than make your loan loan payments manageable. With that being said, there are far less lawyers practicing in Arizona than in other states and the U of A still has the market locked-up for the next few years. As long as you have reasonable expectations and want to practice somewhere in the Greater Southwest, you should not have a problem.

Also, a lot of people who get law degrees from the U of A actually use it to advance their careers in quasi-legal occupations or go in-house at one of the military contractors (eg: Raytheon) that call Tucson home. So, a lot of these folks are not employed as lawyers, and it was never their intention to pursue an outright legal career, which only improves your chances of landing a gig at one of the town's big-name firms (Lewis and Roca, Snell and Wilmer, etc).

Also, 26K for law school tuition is a relative steal, when you consider that many kids pay the same price for four years of undergrad tuition at non-Arizona universities.

With that in mind, the U of A seems like a great choice, granted, you work hard and earn the grades (just like everything else in life).

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby Chippy » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:23 pm

See:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/ ... ss&emc=rss

Arizona doesn't look too bad, at least compared other states. Estimated to have quite a few openings.

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby Veyron » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:48 pm

aldoleopold wrote:If you do well, you are sure to land a 112K-120K gig


Meth, its a hell of a drug.

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby BeautifulSW » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:09 pm

Yeah, I am assuming that the poster was being sarcastic about that "112K-120K gig". I doubt that ANY new associates in Arizona get six-figures. But Tucson and Phoenix are pretty cheap to live in so that adjustment should be made.

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby Glock » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:39 pm

aldoleopold wrote:The U of A places well in Tucson and Phoenix, Arizona, and has a sizable alumni imprint in parts of Texas, Nevada, Southern California and the Bay Area. If you do well, you are sure to land a 112K-120K gig, which coupled with the low cost of living in Tucson and parts of Phoenix will more than make your loan loan payments manageable. With that being said, there are far less lawyers practicing in Arizona than in other states and the U of A still has the market locked-up for the next few years. As long as you have reasonable expectations and want to practice somewhere in the Greater Southwest, you should not have a problem.

Also, a lot of people who get law degrees from the U of A actually use it to advance their careers in quasi-legal occupations or go in-house at one of the military contractors (eg: Raytheon) that call Tucson home. So, a lot of these folks are not employed as lawyers, and it was never their intention to pursue an outright legal career, which only improves your chances of landing a gig at one of the town's big-name firms (Lewis and Roca, Snell and Wilmer, etc).

Also, 26K for law school tuition is a relative steal, when you consider that many kids pay the same price for four years of undergrad tuition at non-Arizona universities.

With that in mind, the U of A seems like a great choice, granted, you work hard and earn the grades (just like everything else in life).



There are some alumni in those places, but a person cannot reasonably expect to actually land a job from UA in those places. There are very few that pull that off and it would only be the very tip top of the class. There are too many better options in those places for firms to take a risk on an unknown school. It is a myth that Arizona places well into California and Texas.

The only chance a UA grad has at landing a job before graduation at the prominent midlaw in phoenix (Snell and Wilmer, Lewis and Roca, Fennemore Craig) is being in the top 10% of the class. Your generic 0L entering UA has a 90% chance of not even being a serious candidate for interviews at the 3 firms that provide well over half of the summer associate positions in phoenix. You still have other private jobs that materialize in the 70-85k range, but those also go to a top portion of the class.

I am just saying that one cannot go to UA and reasonably expect to land that 115k midlaw job in Phoenix. It is rare ITE. T14 candidates have much better odds at getting those jobs, even in Phoenix. There are so many candidates firms can cherrypick from much higher ranked schools.

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby Veyron » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:40 pm

BeautifulSW wrote:Yeah, I am assuming that the poster was being sarcastic about that "112K-120K gig". I doubt that ANY new associates in Arizona get six-figures. But Tucson and Phoenix are pretty cheap to live in so that adjustment should be made.


No, Phoenix "biglaw" pays 115.

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby aldoleopold » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:06 pm

Your generic 0L entering UA has a 90% chance of not even being a serious candidate for interviews at the 3 firms that provide well over half of the summer associate positions in phoenix


This statistic is a complete fabrication. I mean, how do you calculate the percentage of a non-likelihood? I think the sizable donations that firms such as Lewis and Roca and Snell and Wilmer made to the College and their significant involvement in most social functions represents the fact that these firms realize that the Arizona law schools are their bread and butter when it comes to summer and entry-level associates. I do not quite see a torrential flow of T-14 grads into Arizona markets, and even if that was the case, an U of A grad will have a significant shot at being considered.

And, there are sizable imprints of grads in the Texas and California, as well as the Nevada markets once you factor in the overall small size of the college.

And yes, you do need to perform well to be considered for the more well-known firms in Phoenix and Tucson, but I doubt this person, or any applicant for that matter, attends law school without believing that they can perform at their respective school's highest-level Even, if grades preclude this person from obtaining a +100K position in Phoenix or Tucson, there are still a plethora of more middling, legal and quasi-legal jobs in Arizona that will more than cover loan payments when you factor in the low-cost of living in Tucson and portions of Phoenix.

The fact of the matter is, the U of A is an excellent REGIONAL school that will more than make you competitive in its region's legal markets as long as you have earned the grades to do so.

And let's face it, Arizonans, and most Westerners are very skeptical of Easterners with immaculate credentials. If you want a judgeship, political office or government work nothing will carry you as far as an Arizona or ASU JD.

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby aldoleopold » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:12 pm

Veyron wrote:
BeautifulSW wrote:Yeah, I am assuming that the poster was being sarcastic about that "112K-120K gig". I doubt that ANY new associates in Arizona get six-figures. But Tucson and Phoenix are pretty cheap to live in so that adjustment should be made.


No, Phoenix "biglaw" pays 115.


The superfluous comma makes this statement ambiguous. Not sure if the poster is saying that there are no Phoenix firms that pay 115K ,or if Phoenix firms pay 115K?
Last edited by aldoleopold on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby emciosn » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:18 pm

Someone above said you would "struggle" to pay back your debt with a $115K salary. I don't know what your definition of struggle is but if he does in fact get $115K (I know, not even close to guaranteed) I don't think paying back the $120K over ten years would be a struggle at all. Look at a take home salary calculator (Harvard has one I think). There would be plenty left over to have a good life. Not a baller lifestyle but comfortable.

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby BeautifulSW » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:26 pm

Wow. I wonder how many $115K associates are hired every year in Phoenix?

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby Veyron » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:32 pm

BeautifulSW wrote:Wow. I wonder how many $115K associates are hired every year in Phoenix?


Between 20 and 30.

The superfluous comma makes this statement ambiguous. Not sure if the poster is saying that there are no Phoenix firms that pay 115K or if, Phoenix firms pay 115K?


You, sir, are an idiot.

Someone above said you would "struggle" to pay back your debt with a $115K salary. I don't know what your definition of struggle is but if he does in fact get $115K (I know, not even close to guaranteed) I don't think paying back the $120K over ten years would be a struggle at all. Look at a take home salary calculator (Harvard has one I think). There would be plenty left over to have a good life. Not a baller lifestyle but comfortable.


Yah, 20k a year in loan payments is no problem in Phx if you get a 115 job - as long as you manage to keep that job.

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Re: University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision?

Postby Glock » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:36 pm

aldoleopold wrote:
Your generic 0L entering UA has a 90% chance of not even being a serious candidate for interviews at the 3 firms that provide well over half of the summer associate positions in phoenix


This statistic is a complete fabrication. I mean, how do you calculate the percentage of a non-likelihood? I think the sizable donations that firms such as Lewis and Roca and Snell and Wilmer made to the College and their significant involvement in most social functions represents the fact that these firms realize that the Arizona law schools are their bread and butter when it comes to summer and entry-level associates. I do not quite see a torrential flow of T-14 grads into Arizona markets, and even if that was the case, an U of A grad will have a significant shot at being considered.

And, there are sizable imprints of grads in the Texas and California, as well as the Nevada markets once you factor in the overall small size of the college.

And yes, you do need to perform well to be considered for the more well-known firms in Phoenix and Tucson, but I doubt this person, or any applicant for that matter, attends law school without believing that they can perform at their respective school's highest-level Even, if grades preclude this person from obtaining a +100K position in Phoenix or Tucson, there are still a plethora of more middling, legal and quasi-legal jobs in Arizona that will more than cover loan payments when you factor in the low-cost of living in Tucson and portions of Phoenix.

The fact of the matter is, the U of A is an excellent REGIONAL school that will more than make you competitive in its region's legal markets as long as you have earned the grades to do so.

And let's face it, Arizonans, and most Westerners are very skeptical of Easterners with immaculate credentials. If you want a judgeship, political office or government work nothing will carry you as far as an Arizona or ASU JD.



LOL at fabrication. My fabrication is what the firms list for OCI at both ASU and UA. Fennemore and Lewis both list top 10%. Snell says top 15% but rarely give interviews out of the top 10%. Fennemore is known to only hire from the top handful of students (ie ranks 1-5). So how do you calculate the 90% figure? hmmm. That is a hard one.

Obviously those firms are plugged into both ASU and UA. They draw from ASU and UA. The point is that they only draw from the top of the class, which is objectively true. Look at the handful of UA and ASU grades hired by those three firms in the last 3 years. Summa and magna cum laude unless it is an IP job.

There is no torrential flow of T14 or ASU and UA grads because there are very few jobs available. The point is that Snell, Lewis, and Fennemore often do draw from the T14 and all want at least one T3 candidate per summer class- when they can get one.

A generic 0L entering UA has a 90% chance of being outside the top 10%. Since the prominent phoenix firms basically require that, it also serves as the chance you will not be considered for those jobs. There are other firms and a lot of other firms that pay less. It is just delusional to think you are going to go to UA and end up and Snell bringing in 115k. Only a handful even have a shot.




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