FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

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kozmosis
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FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby kozmosis » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:34 am

I had been set on FSU and would much rather stay in the southeast but I just received an scholarship offer from OU (15,000 per year). I'm looking for thoughts from anyone who has considered/visited either school. I haven't seen OU in person. Any help would be appreciated. I have until Sunday 7/24 to decide.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:36 am

Neither is a particularly good option. If there is a gun to your head and you must attend this year, pick where you want to live the next 5-10 years and enjoy.

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Grizz
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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:41 am

Dude FSU doesn't have a lot of Southern mobility. Neither does OU. Choose FL or Oklahoma and enjoy. Also if you can't get in-state at FSU your last two years, I wouldn't go.

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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby kozmosis » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:51 am

Its incredibly unhelpful when people pop on threads to discourage attendance at schools a person is picking between. i know neither pulls much weight nationally. i know both are regional schools. i know neither is good for big law. i am looking for opinions from people who have been to or looked into these schools.

As i stated in my first post i would prefer to stay in the southeast, i probably should have said florida as i know the degree doesn't travel. I plan on being eligible for in-state the following two years. i am aware that in picking either of these schools i will be bound to that area. All I am asking for is thoughts on the schools or thoughts on moving out of a preferred area to take on less debt.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:55 am

If you're butthurt over some replies you don't like in a forum (that most would constitute as good advice, I might add), you may want to seek out a different profession.

kozmosis
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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby kozmosis » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:57 am

your advice was the schools are crap. thanks for the advice.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:03 am

FeelTheHeat wrote:Neither is a particularly good option. If there is a gun to your head and you must attend this year, pick where you want to live the next 5-10 years and enjoy.



kozmosis wrote:your advice was the schools are crap. thanks for the advice.


Excellent reading comp.

kozmosis wrote: All I am asking for is thoughts on the schools or thoughts on moving out of a preferred area to take on less debt.


Actually looks like I answered all you were asking for. Anyways, carry on.

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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby kozmosis » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:17 am

well this thread is successfully derailed so i might as well just say what's on my mind.

in my opinion when a person is asking for advice or information involving two schools to choose from it is in bad taste to state that "neither is a particularly good option" and to only choose one if a "gun is to your head." Under this line of thinking no one should ever go to a school outside the top 30. I am aware that neither school is prestigious, but these are the options I have.

as for the other part of your advice "pick where you want to live for the next 5-10 years" i find it to be generic and unhelpful. i thought it would be obvious that in choosing between these schools i was looking for specific thoughts on those two areas/schools not cookie cutter advice of choose where you want to live. To clarify, and not to be a jerk, I am looking for specific thoughts on these two schools/areas not generic advice.

I am sorry this got turned into a small pissing match and I am sorry if you legitimately thought you were giving me good advice. We clearly disagree on what is helpful.

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Grizz
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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:21 am

kozmosis wrote:your advice was the schools are crap. thanks for the advice.


FSU is a good option for cheap. I'm not sure getting in-state at FL schools is particularly easy, though I could be wrong. Don't know much about OU though.

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TheFutureLawyer
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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby TheFutureLawyer » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:22 am

Personally, I'd rather live in Florida than Oklahoma (though admittedly I know nothing of Oklahoma and am from Florida).

But if you are financing law school completely with loans, I'd say go to Oklahoma (unless you are very averse to living there, in which case simply don't go there). I say this because even if you get in-state tuition at FSU after 1L, you'd still be taking out ~$115,000 in loans (and are you sure about getting in-state after your first year? You generally can't).

Median private sector first-year salary: $67,500 (Class of 2007, 58% reporting)

You know that these things are already inflated. And this is before the recession, in which Florida was hit especially hard, and where unemployment is above 10%. So the average c/o 2014 student (going into private sector) will probably have a salary of $45,000 (generous estimation). The average student will not get big raises every year. The debt will keep gaining interest. After 30 years, the student will have been lucky to have been able to live a dead center middle class life (economically speaking).

The rule of thumb is to not take out more in loans than you expect to make in your first year out of law school. You'd be taking out twice as much. Greece is about to go bankrupt from 150% debt of gdp. We are freaking out because we just hit the 100% mark. Your debt would be around 210% of income.

Now time to go to sleep.

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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:25 am

kozmosis wrote:well this thread is successfully derailed so i might as well just say what's on my mind.

in my opinion when a person is asking for advice or information involving two schools to choose from it is in bad taste to state that "neither is a particularly good option" and to only choose one if a "gun is to your head." Under this line of thinking no one should ever go to a school outside the top 30. I am aware that neither school is prestigious, but these are the options I have.


"Neither" can be good advice. If someone said "should I shoot myself in the foot or the hand," you would say "Don't shoot yourself." Yeah, this may seem drastic, but those schools are gonna cost you like $100k+. Most people from these schools will be making like $50k-unemployed. Think about it.

as for the other part of your advice "pick where you want to live for the next 5-10 years" i find it to be generic and unhelpful. i thought it would be obvious that in choosing between these schools i was looking for specific thoughts on those two areas/schools not cookie cutter advice of choose where you want to live. To clarify, and not to be a jerk, I am looking for specific thoughts on these two schools/areas not generic advice.


Because those law schools are so regional, a lot of it really comes down to where you want to live. It's pretty good advice.
Last edited by Grizz on Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

kozmosis
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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby kozmosis » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:25 am

rad law wrote:
kozmosis wrote:your advice was the schools are crap. thanks for the advice.


FSU is a good option for cheap. I'm not sure getting in-state at FL schools is particularly easy, though I could be wrong. Don't know much about OU though.


thank you for your opinion. my last response was not pointed at you.

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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby bk1 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:28 am

kozmosis wrote:in my opinion when a person is asking for advice or information involving two schools to choose from it is in bad taste to state that "neither is a particularly good option" and to only choose one if a "gun is to your head." Under this line of thinking no one should ever go to a school outside the top 30. I am aware that neither school is prestigious, but these are the options I have.


So if I asked you whether I should kill myself with a pistol or a shotgun you'd tell me to use a pistol because it's less messy rather than not to kill myself?

But in all seriousness, first off don't go to Oklahoma. I don't care how cheap it is, barely half of their graduates get jobs as full time lawyers (source: LST). It seems like a waste to spend 3 years (on top of the money it would cost) to have a 50/50 chance of actually being a full time lawyer. FSU is okay but still not a great idea. A quick interwebz search says FL residency is easy to get so you would be end up with 120k debt (not counting interest). That is a severe burden to pay off with the kind of salary you are going to get out of FSU not to mention that about 30% of the time you won't be getting a full time legal job out of FSU. You should retake/reapply if it is at all possible.

ETA: Rad beat me to it with the metaphor. :P

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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby kozmosis » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:33 am

rad law wrote:
kozmosis wrote:well this thread is successfully derailed so i might as well just say what's on my mind.

in my opinion when a person is asking for advice or information involving two schools to choose from it is in bad taste to state that "neither is a particularly good option" and to only choose one if a "gun is to your head." Under this line of thinking no one should ever go to a school outside the top 30. I am aware that neither school is prestigious, but these are the options I have.


"Neither" can be good advice. If someone said "should I shoot myself in the foot or the hand," you would say "Don't shoot yourself." Yeah, this may seem drastic, but those schools are gonna cost you like $100k+. Most people from these schools will be making like $50k-unemployed. Think about it.

as for the other part of your advice "pick where you want to live for the next 5-10 years" i find it to be generic and unhelpful. i thought it would be obvious that in choosing between these schools i was looking for specific thoughts on those two areas/schools not cookie cutter advice of choose where you want to live. To clarify, and not to be a jerk, I am looking for specific thoughts on these two schools/areas not generic advice.


Because those law schools are so regional, a lot of it really comes down to where you want to live. It's pretty good advice.


i guess i'm just not being clear. i know that it comes down to where i want to live when looking at regional schools. what i am looking for are specific opinions of the schools/areas from people who live in, went to school at, or researched them. there may not be many out there that can give this advice and i recognize that. i already know the generic advice. i'm sorry if i was unclear in that in my OP.

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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby kozmosis » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:40 am

bk1 wrote:
kozmosis wrote:in my opinion when a person is asking for advice or information involving two schools to choose from it is in bad taste to state that "neither is a particularly good option" and to only choose one if a "gun is to your head." Under this line of thinking no one should ever go to a school outside the top 30. I am aware that neither school is prestigious, but these are the options I have.


So if I asked you whether I should kill myself with a pistol or a shotgun you'd tell me to use a pistol because it's less messy rather than not to kill myself?

But in all seriousness, first off don't go to Oklahoma. I don't care how cheap it is, barely half of their graduates get jobs as full time lawyers (source: LST). It seems like a waste to spend 3 years (on top of the money it would cost) to have a 50/50 chance of actually being a full time lawyer. FSU is okay but still not a great idea. A quick interwebz search says FL residency is easy to get so you would be end up with 120k debt (not counting interest). That is a severe burden to pay off with the kind of salary you are going to get out of FSU not to mention that about 30% of the time you won't be getting a full time legal job out of FSU. You should retake/reapply if it is at all possible.

ETA: Rad beat me to it with the metaphor. :P


i'm not looking to be talked out of committing suicide just like i'm not looking to be talked out of going to either of these schools. i'm looking for specific thoughts from those close to the schools. thank you for your stats and thoughts.

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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:28 am

Ought to chime in about OU I suppose. Good school, very nice and well funded campus. The area around OU is pretty and nice, although still affordable. Very conservative religious state, but the people are friendly and kind and many of my friends who were agnostic or politically progressive were fine there. I enjoyed the people, myself, despite there one-sided politics.

OU is a huge deal in Oklahoma, whereas FSU is just an option in Florida. I would consider that but you may not, which is fine. I have toured both campuses and law schools and OU wins here, save for Doak Walker stadium which is just awesome (OU also has a great stadium, obviously). Overall campus and certainly the law school facilities are nicer in Norman, though.

After graduation, you would work in OKC or Tulsa. Tulsa is an attractive town (eastern Oklahoma is prettier) but there is more to do in OKC. You will probably end up with a mortgage in Edmond if you go to OU law. Throw in a wife and dogs/kids and that is the pinnacle of Oklahoma living for most people there.

Despite what TLS nerds may think, if you do well at a respected school like OU you can network and find a job in your home market. Most people who attend respected regional schools like OU and FSU end up not doing this but that is mainly because they know they would be throwing away their whole legal network by moving, not because they can't. You would need to do well, though, but really you should just go to FSU and spend more if you want to live in Florida. You definitely need to visit Oklahoma before deciding to attend LS there.

Also whoever said it's a 50/50 shot at OU to become a full time attorney is mistaken. It's been at least 70-80 percent. Salaries are low but they usually have very few part-time grads and report a very large number of salaries.

Native Okie here, PM with any specific Q's.

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Bill Cosby
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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby Bill Cosby » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:44 am

rad law wrote:
kozmosis wrote:your advice was the schools are crap. thanks for the advice.


FSU is a good option for cheap. I'm not sure getting in-state at FL schools is particularly easy, though I could be wrong. Don't know much about OU though.


Since I'll be attending FSU in the fall and am coming from out-of-state, I can comment a bit on this. It can be done, but it's a difficult process and it would be pretty challenging to get that ball rolling at this point.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:46 am

Bill Cosby wrote:
rad law wrote:
kozmosis wrote:your advice was the schools are crap. thanks for the advice.


FSU is a good option for cheap. I'm not sure getting in-state at FL schools is particularly easy, though I could be wrong. Don't know much about OU though.


Since I'll be attending FSU in the fall and am coming from out-of-state, I can comment a bit on this. It can be done, but it's a difficult process and it would be pretty challenging to get that ball rolling at this point.


Plus you got some $$$, right? The first year (at the minimum) is a giant, 40k bitch slap.

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Bill Cosby
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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby Bill Cosby » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:58 am

FeelTheHeat wrote:
Bill Cosby wrote:
rad law wrote:
kozmosis wrote:your advice was the schools are crap. thanks for the advice.


FSU is a good option for cheap. I'm not sure getting in-state at FL schools is particularly easy, though I could be wrong. Don't know much about OU though.


Since I'll be attending FSU in the fall and am coming from out-of-state, I can comment a bit on this. It can be done, but it's a difficult process and it would be pretty challenging to get that ball rolling at this point.


Plus you got some $$$, right? The first year (at the minimum) is a giant, 40k bitch slap.


I did and I absolutely agree. I wouldn't have attended at sticker.

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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby taxguy » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:27 am

kozmosis wrote:Its incredibly unhelpful when people pop on threads to discourage attendance at schools a person is picking between. i know neither pulls much weight nationally. i know both are regional schools. i know neither is good for big law. i am looking for opinions from people who have been to or looked into these schools.

As i stated in my first post i would prefer to stay in the southeast, i probably should have said florida as i know the degree doesn't travel. I plan on being eligible for in-state the following two years. i am aware that in picking either of these schools i will be bound to that area. All I am asking for is thoughts on the schools or thoughts on moving out of a preferred area to take on less debt.


Response:Kozmosis, I agree with you. There are a LOT of unhelpful , rude posters on this site. I think it is a function of both immaturity and insecurity. However, I believe,despite their blunt wording, many mean well. Certainly, it would be better if you could go to Florida over even FSU. In fact, going to a T14 would be better than either one,but you probably don't have that option. However, given your choices, I would suggest the following:

A lot depends on how much money you are getting and where you want to practice. If you were getting a full ride or almost full ride, I would take the scholarship as long as the requirements to keep it aren't too tough. Remember that law school grading is MUCH harder than undergrad. A "B" average would probably put you in the top 20%.

Secondly, absent that major scholarship, I would take the one in the state that you want to practice in. Florida State has a big alumni base and has a very decent reputation among Florida firms. I would place Florida States law school's cache as second or third in Florida. Outside of Florida, however, it would be problematic. In Florida the cache of law schools are: Florida>Florida State and Miami> Stetson> FIU ( although some would debate this)> probably Nova> everything else.

I like Florida State because if you plan correctly in your first year, you can get instate tuition starting in years 2 and 3,which make them a real steal. I don't know how doable this is for Oklahoma.
Just for the record if you check out how many courses are offered outside of first year curriculum, both don't offer a lot of choices compared to other schools. See
https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... px?sid=113 for a lot of good info. In addtion, both don't have good ranking at ratemyprofessor.com. Good luck on whatever choice you make.
Last edited by taxguy on Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bill Cosby
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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby Bill Cosby » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:35 am

taxguy wrote:
kozmosis wrote:Its incredibly unhelpful when people pop on threads to discourage attendance at schools a person is picking between. i know neither pulls much weight nationally. i know both are regional schools. i know neither is good for big law. i am looking for opinions from people who have been to or looked into these schools.

As i stated in my first post i would prefer to stay in the southeast, i probably should have said florida as i know the degree doesn't travel. I plan on being eligible for in-state the following two years. i am aware that in picking either of these schools i will be bound to that area. All I am asking for is thoughts on the schools or thoughts on moving out of a preferred area to take on less debt.


Response:Kozmosis, I agree with you. There are a LOT of unhelpful , rude posters on this site. I think it is a function of both immaturity and insecurity. However, I believe,despite their blunt wording, many mean well. Certainly, it would be better if you could go to Florida over even FSU. In fact, going to a T14 would be better than either one,but you probably don't have that option. However, given your choices, I would suggest the following:

A lot depends on how much money you are getting and where you want to practice. If you were getting a full ride or almost full ride, I would take the scholarship as long as the requirements to keep it aren't too tough. Remember that law school grading is MUCH harder than undergrad. A "B" average would probably put you in the top 20%.

Secondly, absent that major scholarship, I would take the one in the state that you want to practice in. Florida State has a big alumni base and has a very decent reputation among Florida firms. I would place Florida States law school's cache as second or third in Florida. Outside of Florida, however, it would be problematic. In Florida the cache of law schools are: Florida>Florida State and Miami> Stetson> FIU ( although some would debate this)> probably Nova> everything else.

I like Florida State because if you plan correctly in your first year, you can get instate tuition starting in years 2 and 3,which make them a real steal. I don't know how doable this is for Oklahoma. Good luck on whatever choice you make.


Kozmosis, whatever you do, ignore taxguy. He doesn't know what he's talking about in general, and it's even worse in this case. FSU places well, but it doesn't have a big alumni base compared to peer schools like UF (it's young in the scheme of things and doesn't have a large class). If you're starting this fall, it's unlikely you'll be able to swing in-state for second and third year at FSU. There are a lot of hoops to jump though (driver's license, car registration, intent to domicile form, pre-register for the Florida bar) that you need to do for consideration. All of those except for pre-registration need to be completed before the start of school. It's such a process that I'm moving to Tallahassee a month in advance of orientation to get it all done.

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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby Flips88 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:36 am

Went to OU for undergrad and have lots of friends at OU Law so figured I'd chime in. The school is far and away the best law school in the state. Tulsa is TTT and OCU is TTTT. The facilities are pretty nice. David Boren, the President of OU, is a very active fundraiser and has helped developed the entire campus including the law school, which is just south of the main campus. Re: jobs prospects...First off, abandon all hope of big law. There's no such thing in Oklahoma and your chances of getting it somewhere else are minimal. There are a few mid-sized firms in Oklahoma that, while they don't pay market, pay pretty well relative to the low COL is Oklahoma. Moreover, there are lots of energy companies based in Oklahoma that are in need of in-house counsel (Chesapeake, Devon, SandRidge, ONEOK). So while the job prospects aren't tremendous, I don't think they are as bleak as some people ITT believe. Your prospects will only reach as far as OK, maybe TX, AR, MO, and KS, but you should plan on working in Oklahoma. OU has a great community feel to it. You can get student tickets to football games. Norman is a great town and living is cheap. I can't speak to Florida State's quality, but this is just my two cents about OU.

ETA: Don't listen to TaxGuy

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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby taxguy » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:44 am

Bill Cosby wrote:
taxguy wrote:
kozmosis wrote:Its incredibly unhelpful when people pop on threads to discourage attendance at schools a person is picking between. i know neither pulls much weight nationally. i know both are regional schools. i know neither is good for big law. i am looking for opinions from people who have been to or looked into these schools.

As i stated in my first post i would prefer to stay in the southeast, i probably should have said florida as i know the degree doesn't travel. I plan on being eligible for in-state the following two years. i am aware that in picking either of these schools i will be bound to that area. All I am asking for is thoughts on the schools or thoughts on moving out of a preferred area to take on less debt.


Response:Kozmosis, I agree with you. There are a LOT of unhelpful , rude posters on this site. I think it is a function of both immaturity and insecurity. However, I believe,despite their blunt wording, many mean well. Certainly, it would be better if you could go to Florida over even FSU. In fact, going to a T14 would be better than either one,but you probably don't have that option. However, given your choices, I would suggest the following:

A lot depends on how much money you are getting and where you want to practice. If you were getting a full ride or almost full ride, I would take the scholarship as long as the requirements to keep it aren't too tough. Remember that law school grading is MUCH harder than undergrad. A "B" average would probably put you in the top 20%.

Secondly, absent that major scholarship, I would take the one in the state that you want to practice in. Florida State has a big alumni base and has a very decent reputation among Florida firms. I would place Florida States law school's cache as second or third in Florida. Outside of Florida, however, it would be problematic. In Florida the cache of law schools are: Florida>Florida State and Miami> Stetson> FIU ( although some would debate this)> probably Nova> everything else.

I like Florida State because if you plan correctly in your first year, you can get instate tuition starting in years 2 and 3,which make them a real steal. I don't know how doable this is for Oklahoma or even know much about Oklahoma other than their strong cache in Oklahoma.. Good luck on whatever choice you make.


Kozmosis, whatever you do, ignore taxguy. He doesn't know what he's talking about in general, and it's even worse in this case. FSU places well, but it doesn't have a big alumni base compared to peer schools like UF (it's young in the scheme of things and doesn't have a large class). If you're starting this fall, it's unlikely you'll be able to swing in-state for second and third year at FSU. There are a lot of hoops to jump though (driver's license, car registration, intent to domicile form, pre-register for the Florida bar) that you need to do for consideration. All of those except for pre-registration need to be completed before the start of school. It's such a process that I'm moving to Tallahassee a month in advance of orientation to get it all done.



Oh Bill Cosby, what part about rating Florida first in the state did you not understand by me! As for the rating of law schools, this came from a friend/partner at Holland and Knight in Florida,but I guess that you as a 0l know better. As for getting instate tuition, I never said it was easy. It isn't impossible either. Changing, drivers license, voters registration and filing tax returns aren't overly burdensome. However, there were some recent changes to obtaining in state residency status that should be thoroughly researched before you attempt this. I achieved this for my daughter a few years ago, and it worked for two years afterwards! Don't tell me it can't be done or is overly burdensome because I did it!

As for Flops88, what part about my saying "I don't know how doable this is for Oklahoma" did you not understand?! Unlike that of Florida, where I lived and know a lot of people, I freely admit that I don't know much about Oklahoma or the state itself nor do I know anyone that teaches there. How's that? However, I would still stand by the advice that I gave him.
Last edited by taxguy on Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bill Cosby
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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby Bill Cosby » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:58 am

You need to learn how to read. I disputing your objectively false claim that FSU has a large alumni base.

As for residency, I never said the process is burdensome or unreasonable. It's just that there are a lot of steps, which makes it time consuming. It's not the sort of thing you can show up a week before orientation and complete.

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Re: FSU (out of state sticker) vs Oklahoma ($$$)

Postby taxguy » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:09 am

[quote="Bill Cosby"]You need to learn how to read. I disputing your objectively false claim that FSU has a large alumni base.

Response: NO, you need to learn how to read. What I said was that FSU has a large alumni base. I didn't say FSU law school has a large base, although it isn't bad. The law school alumni number 7800, most of which are in florida ( seehttp://www.law.fsu.edu/alumni/index.html) FSU's overall alumni base, which has most in florida totals 301.197, which doesn't sound to shabby.
For objective data,which is all you seem to want, see:
http://www.ir.fsu.edu/Factbooks/2008-09 ... _State.pdf

Moreover, they have chapters in every state and many of them are very active. I get invited to Florida state alumni parties due to my connections. They are very active.
Last edited by taxguy on Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.




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