Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

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quakeroats
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby quakeroats » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:04 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
woeisme wrote:
bdubs wrote:Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.


It is BMVPDCNG. People just break it down further because our culture is ranking-obsessed. But for all intents and purposes the bottom half of the T14 are peer schools.

For biglaw, MVPDN are pretty comparable. Cornell can also be included if you're talking about NYC placement only, but is somewhat less dominant outside of the region. Georgetown places slightly worse than these schools, but arguably has slightly better national reach than Cornell.

For clerkships, MVPD are pretty comparable. They all are placing on a percentage on par with Chicago, and above NYU and Columbia. There have been explanations for why students from CN are turning down clerkships because they care more about staying in NYC rather than advancing their careers through clerkships, so perhaps MVPDCCN is a fair clerkship grouping. There could be some validity to the argument - at least enough that I'd concede they're probably more equal than the raw-percentage figures show.

For academia, MBCCN have placed relatively comparably over the past four hiring seasons. Michigan has almost tripled Duke's per capita academia hiring (eat it, QO).

In reality, the reason people put schools like MVPB over other rankings doesn't (or at least, shouldn't) stem from biglaw placement. The place you need to be in your class from any one of the T7-13 is going to be pretty similar when it comes to most firms. Getting biglaw in DC is going to require roughly comparable grades from each of these schools. Getting biglaw in Chicago may (but only may) be slightly easier from Michigan if you don't have ties from elsewhere, and only because they're familiar with Michigan grads. I personally don't believe biglaw in the south is so grade selective as to be more-or-less difficult from any school if you have legitimate ties to the area. Unlike a place like Chicago, I think southern markets are much more like the secondary markets I applied to where any T13 students with strong ties are pretty highly desired. Getting biglaw in California (especially SF) will be equally tough from all of the schools. The only place some of these schools really differentiate themselves, IMHO, are in arguably more marginal or "secondary" placement metrics like clerkships and academia. Even then, the differences aren't that enormous - unless, of course, you're talking about Michigan vs. Duke in academia placement. Because then it's an ass-whooping.

Also, and because I fucking love me some QO, there's something else I want to discuss here. He's put out these as-of-yet unsubstantiated claims that Duke has a placement edge in California. While that sounds beautiful, we've seen absolutely no data to suggest that firms are more likely to hire Duke students than Michigan students. If anything, Michigan has a more established alumni network in the state. As an example, here are some of Chambers' top corporate/litigation firms in SF using QOs' Bullshit Attorneys-In-The-Office Metric™ (yes, this includes all attorneys; no, I don't care to spend the time checking for associates vs. partners - do it yourself, the results are still more-or-less meaningless/hilarious):

MoFo SF:
Michigan - 9
Duke - 0

Kirkland SF:
Michigan - 7
Duke - 2

Latham SF:
Michigan - 6
Duke - 0

GDC SF:
Michigan - 6
Duke - 2

Quinn SF:
Michigan - 1
Duke - 2
(Don't get your hopes up too much, QO - it's still Michigan (20) vs. Duke (6) firmwide)

Skadden SV:
Michigan - 1
Duke - 0

Fenwick (no office search, firmwide):
Michigan - 7
Duke - 2

OMM SF:
Michigan - 5
Duke - 1

Raw Numbers:
Michigan = 42
Duke = 9

Post-Adjustment Totals:
42/375 = .112
9/200 = .045

So, QO, please do explain your California comment. Remember, you're the one who made the claim that Duke is the choice for California over Michigan. This is by far the toughest legal market in CA, so I don't want to hear any arguments about how you could be placing there but you aim for other places within the state. Instead, please explain to me why Michigan is absolutely skullfucking the face off of Duke throughout the best firms in the area based on your stupid metric. TYIA.


California is a tertiary market for us. I think comparing primary market to primary market is a bit better (and of course it needs to be just associate data). Btw I think your California stats are missing something, like the biggest market in the state.

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quakeroats
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby quakeroats » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:08 am

rad law wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
quakeroats wrote:Almost everyone here sounds young. If you're not sure, here's a quick test:
5. Can you disambiguate Metternich and Bismarck?


So you too AP Euro too?


Hoist by my own petard.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:39 am

woeisme wrote:lolwut? This is some egregious Michigan and anti-Cornell trolling my friend. Nevertheless, thanks for some stats!


You really love Cornell but they aren't particulary good for anything except working in NYC biglaw. I know that this website claims that those are the only jobs that matter/in existence, so that's all one should be concerned about, but still, it's really not great at anything but that. Other than the NYC thing, Cornell isn't really any different from a school like Texas, Vanderbilt, or UCLA. In some ways worse when you take into account that basically any school within the top 20 gives you a decent shot at NYC. Whereas Texas, Vanderbilt, and UCLA all give you an in door to 3 very insular markets. The true answer to this guy's question is whichever school he can pull off top quarter grades. Because firms will want the same grades from each school (with the exception of the firms that don't hire from one of the 3. And the only school of the 3 that I know a significant number of firms that don't hire from is Cornell--significant number of DC firms, southern firms, midwestern firms).

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bk1
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:49 pm

BruceWayne wrote:The true answer to this guy's question is whichever school he can pull off top quarter grades.


That is a pretty useless answer since the difference is negligible to nonexistent.

09042014
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:52 pm

bk1 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:The true answer to this guy's question is whichever school he can pull off top quarter grades.


That is a pretty useless answer since the difference is negligible to nonexistent.


Duke has better applicants. /quakeroats, but also a lil srs

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bk1
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:56 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Duke has better applicants. /quakeroats, but also a lil srs


If it wasn't for Mich/Cornell, 168's would have their T14 dreams dashed.

ETA: Just saw NU's 25th percentile GPA... trollololololol

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BruceWayne
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:59 pm

bk1 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:The true answer to this guy's question is whichever school he can pull off top quarter grades.


That is a pretty useless answer since the difference is negligible to nonexistent.


Clearly the post went over your head. In other words it won't matter which of the 3 he goes to outside of his specific interests (ie interested in the South-Duke, interested in Chicago-Michigan, interested in small class sizes and living in Ithaca-Cornell).
Last edited by BruceWayne on Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:00 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Clearly the post went over your head.


Nah I think you just give shitty advice.

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monarchylover
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby monarchylover » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:54 pm

Duke or Cornell..... UMich sucks

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IAFG
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby IAFG » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:00 pm

bk1 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Clearly the post went over your head.


Nah I think you just give shitty advice.

In this case, he's totally right. Peer schools are peer schools are peer schools. I would feel the same about OCI with my ranking at Duke, Michigan, UVa (well maybe not, pre-selects make me nervous), etc.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:06 pm

bk1 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Clearly the post went over your head.


Nah I think you just give shitty advice.


Aren't you one of those posters who's never been to law school so they just repeat whatever they see the 3,000+ count posters say? How have you even managed to post 12,000+ times even though you've never been to law school? Either you're asking a lot of questions or you're giving a shit ton of baseless advice/commentary. For the sake of people looking for serious advice I hope it's the former.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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monarchylover
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby monarchylover » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:09 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
bk1 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Clearly the post went over your head.


Nah I think you just give shitty advice.


Aren't you one of those posters who's never been to law school so they just repeat whatever they see the 3,000+ count posters say?

I am one of those as well now. 99% of my responses from now on will be "retake"

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Moxie
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby Moxie » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:11 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
bk1 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Clearly the post went over your head.


Nah I think you just give shitty advice.


Aren't you one of those posters who's never been to law school so they just repeat whatever they see the 3,000+ count posters say?


Doesn't that describe every OL on TLS?

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bk1
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:11 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
bk1 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Clearly the post went over your head.


Nah I think you just give shitty advice.


Aren't you one of those posters who's never been to law school so they just repeat whatever they see the 3,000+ count posters say?

I'm not disagreeing with your general advice because it was spot on. But mentioning which school has it easiest for grades is a red herring because the academic profiles of the student bodies at these schools are virtually identical for all practical purposes.

Unless you meant personal comfort level helping with grades then in that case I would say that the difference there is still minimal. Are people really so temperamental that living in one of these places would have a non-marginal effect on their grades?

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monarchylover
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby monarchylover » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:13 pm

bk1 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
bk1 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Clearly the post went over your head.


Nah I think you just give shitty advice.


Aren't you one of those posters who's never been to law school so they just repeat whatever they see the 3,000+ count posters say?

I'm not disagreeing with your general advice because it was spot on. But mentioning which school has it easiest for grades is a red herring because the academic profiles of the student bodies at these schools are virtually identical for all practical purposes.

Unless you meant personal comfort level helping with grades then in that case I would say that the difference there is still minimal. Are people really so temperamental that living in one of these places would have a non-marginal effect on their grades?


madd skills dodging questions wicked ninja cat

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BruceWayne
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:17 pm

bk1 wrote:I'm not disagreeing with your general advice because it was spot on. But mentioning which school has it easiest for grades is a red herring because the academic profiles of the student bodies at these schools are virtually identical for all practical purposes.

Unless you meant personal comfort level helping with grades then in that case I would say that the difference there is still minimal. Are people really so temperamental that living in one of these places would have a non-marginal effect on their grades?


Like I said the first time, the post went over your head. I meant exactly what IAFG said; it won't matter which school he attends (with the exception of him having specific interests--like working in the South etc.) because they're peer schools. Unless you're talking about HYS or to a lesser extent CC, grades and individual market are going to come into play with top 14 schools and firm hiring more than anything else.

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bk1
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:18 pm

monarchylover wrote:
madd skills dodging questions wicked ninja cat

He got me. I've totally been masquerading as a law student, have never spoken to law students prior to TLS, and have not dealt with a fair amount of lawyers. Yup, that totally describes me.

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bk1
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:19 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
bk1 wrote:I'm not disagreeing with your general advice because it was spot on. But mentioning which school has it easiest for grades is a red herring because the academic profiles of the student bodies at these schools are virtually identical for all practical purposes.

Unless you meant personal comfort level helping with grades then in that case I would say that the difference there is still minimal. Are people really so temperamental that living in one of these places would have a non-marginal effect on their grades?


Like I said the first time, the post went over your head. I meant exactly what IAFG said; it won't matter which school he attends (with the exception of him having specific interests--like working in the South etc.) because they're peer schools. Unless you're talking about HYS or to a lesser extent CC, grades and individual market are going to come into play with top 14 schools and firm hiring more than anything else.

I get that. I'm just questioning why even bring up the grades thing.

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monarchylover
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby monarchylover » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:19 pm

bk1 wrote:
monarchylover wrote:
madd skills dodging questions wicked ninja cat

He got me. I've totally been masquerading as a law student, have never spoken to law students prior to TLS, and have not dealt with a fair amount of lawyers. Yup, that totally describes me.


Mwahahahahahaha

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bk1
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:27 pm

As an honest aside I do think it's fair and right to call people out and that I was being slightly combative.

My general point is that saying "the true answer is wherever you can get the best grades" implies that the chances for getting good grades differ. I understand I'm taking issue with a single line and being an aspie nitpicker.

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IAFG
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby IAFG » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:29 pm

bk1 wrote:As an honest aside I do think it's fair and right to call people out and that I was being slightly combative.

My general point is that saying "the true answer is wherever you can get the best grades" implies that the chances for getting good grades differ. I understand I'm taking issue with a single line and being an aspie nitpicker.

i think he was being a smartass with the way he framed it, not actually suggesting you try to predict where the competition is less fierce.

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Kronk
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby Kronk » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:32 pm

trollololol @ Duke and Cornell students getting jobs in California.

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bk1
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:37 pm

IAFG wrote:
bk1 wrote:As an honest aside I do think it's fair and right to call people out and that I was being slightly combative.

My general point is that saying "the true answer is wherever you can get the best grades" implies that the chances for getting good grades differ. I understand I'm taking issue with a single line and being an aspie nitpicker.

i think he was being a smartass with the way he framed it, not actually suggesting you try to predict where the competition is less fierce.


Ah so the sarcasm did go over my head. I need to rewelcome myself to the internet.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:41 pm

IAFG wrote:i think he was being a smartass with the way he framed it, not actually suggesting you try to predict where the competition is less fierce.


Basically IAFG has been reading my mind this whole thread.


bk1 wrote:I get that. I'm just questioning why even bring up the grades thing.


Because the guy (and many others, including myself at one point) are freaking out thinking that his kind of thing will make a difference. People need to know that things don't really work like that. It also helps to clue them in to how tough the hiring market is right now, and just how much what you actually do once you get to law school matters, as opposed to the individual school (within the realm of schools with reputations this close).

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IAFG
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Re: Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell?

Postby IAFG » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:44 pm

BruceWayne, it's a red-letter day. We could not be more on the exact same page here. Generally we are on polar opposite sides.




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