Best for Big Law: UMich, Duke, or Cornell? Forum

[quakeroats]

Duke is very good for Southern biglaw, but they didn't even place 40% into the NLJ250 for the C/O 2010 (C/O 2009 wasn't that pretty either). So I would be careful there.

Those numbers are beyond where a school can intervene. The 2L figures were 20 points higher, but the 50% offer rates in the South really hurt us. Cornell is as high as it is only because it places the super majority of its grads in New York.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

Cornell probably, but largely because of New York City (and maybe Ivy status, but not likely). All three are great schools but place in very different markets.

Pick where you want to live and choose accordingly.

[rangers0412]

cornell has a sweet a cappella group

[woeisme]

Title says it all: Which is the best of these schools for a student that wants to go into Big Law?

Probably Cornell, but none of these options will limit you. A better question is where you wanna practice. All else being equal, take Cornell for east coast, take UMich for midwest, and flip a coin for west coast.

[beachbum]

Peer schools are peer.

[bdubs]

Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.

[AreJay711]

Get market paying big law in Detroit->Use $40,000 to buy entire neighborhood worth of houses->Invest another $40,000 in kevlar and ak47s

Yea but those neighborhoods aren't even worth 40K.

I was in Detroit the other week and it wasn't that bad from what I saw. I know the unemployment including the county is around 12% but still.

[bk1]

Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.

Not MBP for most ballinest playa?

[bjsesq]

Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.

That "bit" is smaller than you think.

[bk1]

MVP get lumped together because they are all state schools, not because they have magically better jerb prospects.

[09042014]

Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.

MVP is flame.

[Tanicius]

MVP get lumped together because they are all state schools, not because they have magically better jerb prospects.

Not sure UPenn is actually a state school.

[bjsesq]

MVP get lumped together because they are all state schools, not because they have magically better jerb prospects.

Not sure Penn is actually a state school.

W
H
O
O
S
H

[barry]

MVP get lumped together because they are all state schools, not because they have magically better jerb prospects.[/quote

i haven't seen a good dig at U Penn State in a while haha

[bdubs]

Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.

That "bit" is smaller than you think.

Yes, but of the 3 Michigan has the lowest tuition and tends to be more uniformly generous with financial aid. Combine that with some small distinctions in prestige and placement, all signs point to Michigan unless OP gets better money from Duke or Cornell.

[bjsesq]

Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.

That "bit" is smaller than you think.

Yes, but of the 3 Michigan has the lowest tuition and tends to be more uniformly generous with financial aid. Combine that with some small distinctions in prestige and placement, all signs point to Michigan unless OP gets better money from Duke or Cornell.

You're moving the goal posts, bro.

[barry]

I'm thinking M = D > C..... in reality they are probably all the same but it seems that people usually consider Cornell the weakest and the most limited geographically

[woeisme]

Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.

It is BMVPDCNG. People just break it down further because our culture is ranking-obsessed. But for all intents and purposes the bottom half of the T14 are peer schools.

[bk1]

It is BMVPDCNG. People just break it down further because our culture is ranking-obsessed. But for all intents and purposes the bottom half of the T14 are peer schools.

I think MVP is a real thing i/r/t admissions since they tend to do similar things (regularly take GPAs in the 3.0-3.5 range, have decently predictable ED results, forgive lower LSAT or GPA for ED applicants, etc).

[IAFG]

Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.

That "bit" is smaller than you think.

Yes, but of the 3 Michigan has the lowest tuition and tends to be more uniformly generous with financial aid. Combine that with some small distinctions in prestige and placement, all signs point to Michigan unless OP gets better money from Duke or Cornell.

You're moving the goal posts, bro.

It's also not the question. It's not "what's a better school when you take into account money and weather and policies on pets at neighboring apartments." Saving $10k on tuition doesn't mean jack shit if you strike out.

[Patriot1208]

Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.

It is BMVPDCNG. People just break it down further because our culture is ranking-obsessed. But for all intents and purposes the bottom half of the T14 are peer schools.

fixed

[JamMasterJ]

Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.

It is BMVPDCNG. People just break it down further because our culture is ranking-obsessed. But for all intents and purposes the bottom half of the T14 are peer schools.

fixed

I was about to call that egregious GULC trolling. Damn, you beat me

[FlightoftheEarls]

Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.

It is BMVPDCNG. People just break it down further because our culture is ranking-obsessed. But for all intents and purposes the bottom half of the T14 are peer schools.

For biglaw, MVPDN are pretty comparable. Cornell can also be included if you're talking about NYC placement only, but is somewhat less dominant outside of the region. Georgetown places slightly worse than these schools, but arguably has slightly better national reach than Cornell.

For clerkships, MVPD are pretty comparable. They all are placing on a percentage on par with Chicago, and above NYU and Columbia. There have been explanations for why students from CN are turning down clerkships because they care more about staying in NYC rather than advancing their careers through clerkships, so perhaps MVPDCCN is a fair clerkship grouping. There could be some validity to the argument - at least enough that I'd concede they're probably more equal than the raw-percentage figures show.

For academia, MBCCN have placed relatively comparably over the past four hiring seasons. Michigan has almost tripled Duke's per capita academia hiring (eat it, QO).

In reality, the reason people put schools like MVPB over other rankings doesn't (or at least, shouldn't) stem from biglaw placement. The place you need to be in your class from any one of the T7-13 is going to be pretty similar when it comes to most firms. Getting biglaw in DC is going to require roughly comparable grades from each of these schools. Getting biglaw in Chicago may (but only may) be slightly easier from Michigan if you don't have ties from elsewhere, and only because they're familiar with Michigan grads. I personally don't believe biglaw in the south is so grade selective as to be more-or-less difficult from any school if you have legitimate ties to the area. Unlike a place like Chicago, I think southern markets are much more like the secondary markets I applied to where any T13 students with strong ties are pretty highly desired. Getting biglaw in California (especially SF) will be equally tough from all of the schools. The only place some of these schools really differentiate themselves, IMHO, are in arguably more marginal or "secondary" placement metrics like clerkships and academia. Even then, the differences aren't that enormous - unless, of course, you're talking about Michigan vs. Duke in academia placement. Because then it's an ass-whooping.

Also, and because I fucking love me some QO, there's something else I want to discuss here. He's put out these as-of-yet unsubstantiated claims that Duke has a placement edge in California. While that sounds beautiful, we've seen absolutely no data to suggest that firms are more likely to hire Duke students than Michigan students. If anything, Michigan has a more established alumni network in the state. As an example, here are some of Chambers' top corporate/litigation firms in SF using QOs' Bullshit Attorneys-In-The-Office Metric™ (yes, this includes all attorneys; no, I don't care to spend the time checking for associates vs. partners - do it yourself, the results are still more-or-less meaningless/hilarious):

MoFo SF:
Michigan - 9
Duke - 0

Kirkland SF:
Michigan - 7
Duke - 2

Latham SF:
Michigan - 6
Duke - 0

GDC SF:
Michigan - 6
Duke - 2

Quinn SF:
Michigan - 1
Duke - 2
(Don't get your hopes up too much, QO - it's still Michigan (20) vs. Duke (6) firmwide)

Skadden SV:
Michigan - 1
Duke - 0

Fenwick (no office search, firmwide):
Michigan - 7
Duke - 2

OMM SF:
Michigan - 5
Duke - 1

Raw Numbers:
Michigan = 42
Duke = 9

Post-Adjustment Totals:
42/375 = .112
9/200 = .045

So, QO, please do explain your California comment. Remember, you're the one who made the claim that Duke is the choice for California over Michigan. This is by far the toughest legal market in CA, so I don't want to hear any arguments about how you could be placing there but you aim for other places within the state. Instead, please explain to me why Michigan is absolutely skullfucking the face off of Duke throughout the best firms in the area based on your stupid metric. TYIA.


To close, I'll leave you all with one of my favorite advertisements for why to go to Michigan or Cornell:

Almost everyone here sounds young. If you're not sure, here's a quick test:

1. Have you gotten drunk fewer than 3 times a year in the last 10?
2. Can you name 4 composers who wrote only 9 numbered symphonies (bonus points for two more)?
3. Can you name 4 grapes traditionally found in red Bordeaux (bonus points for two more)?
4. Can you name the Marx brothers?
5. Can you disambiguate Metternich and Bismarck?

Enjoy Duke!

[woeisme]

Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.

It is BMVPDCNG. People just break it down further because our culture is ranking-obsessed. But for all intents and purposes the bottom half of the T14 are peer schools.

For biglaw, MVPDN are pretty comparable. Cornell can also be included if you're talking about NYC placement only, but is somewhat less dominant outside of the region. Georgetown places slightly worse than these schools, but arguably has slightly better national reach than Cornell.

For clerkships, MVPD are pretty comparable. They all are placing on a percentage on par with Chicago, and above NYU and Columbia. There have been explanations for why students from CN are turning down clerkships because they care more about staying in NYC rather than advancing their careers through clerkships, so perhaps MVPDCCN is a fair clerkship grouping. There could be some validity to the argument - at least enough that I'd concede they're probably more equal than the raw-percentage figures show.

For academia, MBCCN have placed relatively comparably over the past four hiring seasons. Michigan has almost tripled Duke's per capita academia hiring (eat it, QO).

In reality, the reason people put schools like MVPB over other rankings doesn't (or at least, shouldn't) stem from biglaw placement. The place you need to be in your class from any one of the T7-13 is going to be pretty similar when it comes to most firms. Getting biglaw in DC is going to require roughly comparable grades from each of these schools. Getting biglaw in Chicago may (but only may) be slightly easier from Michigan if you don't have ties from elsewhere, and only because they're familiar with Michigan grads. I personally don't believe biglaw in the south is so grade selective as to be more-or-less difficult from any school if you have legitimate ties to the area. Unlike a place like Chicago, I think southern markets are much more like the secondary markets I applied to where any T13 students with strong ties are pretty highly desired. Getting biglaw in California (especially SF) will be equally tough from all of the schools. The only place some of these schools really differentiate themselves, IMHO, are in arguably more marginal or "secondary" placement metrics like clerkships and academia. Even then, the differences aren't that enormous - unless, of course, you're talking about Michigan vs. Duke in academia placement. Because then it's an ass-whooping.

Also, and because I fucking love me some QO, there's something else I want to discuss here. He's put out these as-of-yet unsubstantiated claims that Duke has a placement edge in California. While that sounds beautiful, we've seen absolutely no data to suggest that firms are more likely to hire Duke students than Michigan students. If anything, Michigan has a more established alumni network in the state. As an example, here are some of Chambers' top corporate/litigation firms in SF using QOs' Bullshit Attorneys-In-The-Office Metric™ (yes, this includes all attorneys; no, I don't care to spend the time checking for associates vs. partners - do it yourself, the results are still more-or-less meaningless/hilarious):

MoFo SF:
Michigan - 9
Duke - 0

Kirkland SF:
Michigan - 7
Duke - 2

Latham SF:
Michigan - 6
Duke - 0

GDC SF:
Michigan - 6
Duke - 2

Quinn SF:
Michigan - 1
Duke - 2
(Don't get your hopes up too much, QO - it's still Michigan (20) vs. Duke (6) firmwide)

Skadden SV:
Michigan - 1
Duke - 0

Fenwick (no office search, firmwide):
Michigan - 7
Duke - 2

OMM SF:
Michigan - 5
Duke - 1

Raw Numbers:
Michigan = 42
Duke = 9

Post-Adjustment Totals:
42/375 = .112
9/200 = .045

So, QO, please do explain your California comment. Remember, you're the one who made the claim that Duke is the choice for California over Michigan. This is by far the toughest legal market in CA, so I don't want to hear any arguments about how you could be placing there but you aim for other places within the state. Instead, please explain to me why Michigan is absolutely skullfucking the face off of Duke throughout the best firms in the area based on your stupid metric. TYIA.


To close, I'll leave you all with one of my favorite advertisements for why to go to Michigan or Cornell:

Almost everyone here sounds young. If you're not sure, here's a quick test:

1. Have you gotten drunk fewer than 3 times a year in the last 10?
2. Can you name 4 composers who wrote only 9 numbered symphonies (bonus points for two more)?
3. Can you name 4 grapes traditionally found in red Bordeaux (bonus points for two more)?
4. Can you name the Marx brothers?
5. Can you disambiguate Metternich and Bismarck?

Enjoy Duke!

lolwut? This is some egregious Michigan and anti-Cornell trolling my friend. Nevertheless, thanks for some stats!

[Grizz]

Almost everyone here sounds young. If you're not sure, here's a quick test:
5. Can you disambiguate Metternich and Bismarck?

So you too AP Euro too?