bdubs wrote:Surprised everyone is saying Mich, Duke and Cornell are peers. Michigan is a bit better than Duke or Cornell, that is why it is MVP and not MVPDNC.
BMVPDCNG. People just break it down further because our culture is ranking-obsessed. But for all intents and purposes the bottom half of the T14 are peer schools.
For biglaw, MVPDN are pretty comparable. Cornell can also be included if you're talking about NYC placement only, but is somewhat less dominant outside of the region. Georgetown places slightly worse than these schools, but arguably has slightly better national reach than Cornell.
For clerkships, MVPD are pretty comparable. They all are placing on a percentage on par with Chicago, and above NYU and Columbia. There have been explanations for why students from CN are turning down clerkships because they care more about staying in NYC rather than advancing their careers through clerkships, so perhaps MVPDCCN is a fair clerkship grouping. There could be some validity to the argument - at least enough that I'd concede they're probably more equal than the raw-percentage figures show.
For academia, MBCCN have placed relatively comparably over the past four hiring seasons. Michigan has almost tripled Duke's per capita academia hiring (eat it, QO).
In reality, the reason people put schools like MVPB over other rankings doesn't (or at least, shouldn't) stem from biglaw placement. The place you need to be in your class from any one of the T7-13 is going to be pretty similar when it comes to most firms. Getting biglaw in DC is going to require roughly comparable grades from each of these schools. Getting biglaw in Chicago may
(but only may) be slightly easier from Michigan if you don't have ties from elsewhere, and only because they're familiar with Michigan grads. I personally don't believe biglaw in the south is so grade selective as to be more-or-less difficult from any school if you have legitimate ties to the area. Unlike a place like Chicago, I think southern markets are much more like the secondary markets I applied to where any T13 students with strong ties are pretty highly desired. Getting biglaw in California (especially SF) will be equally tough from all of the schools. The only place some of these schools really differentiate themselves, IMHO, are in arguably more marginal or "secondary" placement metrics like clerkships and academia. Even then, the differences aren't that enormous - unless, of course, you're talking about Michigan vs. Duke in academia placement. Because then it's an ass-whooping.
Also, and because I fucking love me some QO, there's something else I want to discuss here. He's put out these as-of-yet unsubstantiated claims that Duke has a placement edge in California. While that sounds beautiful, we've seen absolutely no data to suggest that firms are more likely to hire Duke students than Michigan students. If anything, Michigan has a more established alumni network in the state. As an example, here are some of Chambers' top corporate/litigation firms in SF using QOs' Bullshit Attorneys-In-The-Office Metric™ (yes, this includes all attorneys; no, I don't care to spend the time checking for associates vs. partners - do it yourself, the results are still more-or-less meaningless/hilarious):MoFo SF:
Michigan - 9
Duke - 0Kirkland SF:
Michigan - 7
Duke - 2Latham SF:
Michigan - 6
Duke - 0GDC SF:
Michigan - 6
Duke - 2Quinn SF:
Michigan - 1
Duke - 2
(Don't get your hopes up too much, QO - it's still Michigan (20) vs. Duke (6) firmwide)Skadden SV:
Michigan - 1
Duke - 0Fenwick (no office search, firmwide):
Michigan - 7
Duke - 2OMM SF:
Michigan - 5
Duke - 1Raw Numbers:
Michigan = 42
Duke = 9Post-Adjustment Totals:
42/375 = .112
9/200 = .045
So, QO, please do explain your California comment. Remember, you're the one who made the claim that Duke is the choice for California over Michigan. This is by far the toughest legal market in CA, so I don't want to hear any arguments about how you could be placing there but you aim for other places within the state. Instead, please explain to me why Michigan is absolutely skullfucking the face off of Duke throughout the best firms in the area based on your
stupid metric. TYIA.
To close, I'll leave you all with one of my favorite advertisements for why to go to Michigan or Cornell:
quakeroats wrote:Almost everyone here sounds young. If you're not sure, here's a quick test:
1. Have you gotten drunk fewer than 3 times a year in the last 10?
2. Can you name 4 composers who wrote only 9 numbered symphonies (bonus points for two more)?
3. Can you name 4 grapes traditionally found in red Bordeaux (bonus points for two more)?
4. Can you name the Marx brothers?
5. Can you disambiguate Metternich and Bismarck?