Michigan's outstanding reputation tested by time

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flcath
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Michigan's outstanding reputation tested by time

Postby flcath » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:00 pm

I keep hearing (veiled or otherwise) references to how Michigan is in decline, it's reputation is foundering, etc., often from Michigan Law alumni themselves.

To what does this refer, is it true, and should it be something that a prospective student should take into account?

(I don't really think it's going into TTTdom--I just need a catchy thread title--so please no knee-jerk responses. Tyia.)
Last edited by flcath on Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

dabbadon8
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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby dabbadon8 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:07 pm

TLS 0L's looking at the historic rankings prior to this years rankings which having michigan moving down from three to nine. That combined with stories about a piss poor oci in which the career services office told students to bid in a way that apparently screwed people over. I wouldn't worry about those things. I think they learned from the oci experience (I asked about it during asw). I wouldn't worry about the rankings one way or another.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby flcath » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:17 pm

dabbadon8 wrote:TLS 0L's looking at the historic rankings prior to this years rankings which having michigan moving down from three to nine. That combined with stories about a piss poor oci in which the career services office told students to bid in a way that apparently screwed people over. I wouldn't worry about those things. I think they learned from the oci experience (I asked about it during asw). I wouldn't worry about the rankings one way or another.

Any chance it goes deeper than the rankings? Besides aren't they at #7 right now?

It's open knowledge that they've gone from being a notch below HY (40 years ago) to where they are now, but the same can be said of C. I've seen threads both here and on XO in which Mich posters go out of their way to ask law professors (in those "law prof taking Qs" threads) concerned questions about Mich's rep w/o giving further details... Brian Leiter has also made similar allusions, and he's an alumnus as well.

I hate to be so vague, and my hope is that it is just micro-rankings bullshit coupled with an unexpectedly bad OCI year.

flcath
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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby flcath » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:20 pm

And to stem off any criticism you peeps might throw at me for being so rumor-mongering and vague, plz remember that Michigan costs more than a Lamborghini, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna let these little references pass without finding out more.

This kinda shit is what TLS is made for; if we just wanted NLJ 250 charts passed around we'd post them on the homepage and not have forums at all.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby dabbadon8 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:31 pm

flcath wrote:
dabbadon8 wrote:TLS 0L's looking at the historic rankings prior to this years rankings which having michigan moving down from three to nine. That combined with stories about a piss poor oci in which the career services office told students to bid in a way that apparently screwed people over. I wouldn't worry about those things. I think they learned from the oci experience (I asked about it during asw). I wouldn't worry about the rankings one way or another.

Any chance it goes deeper than the rankings? Besides aren't they at #7 right now?

It's open knowledge that they've gone from being a notch below HY (40 years ago) to where they are now, but the same can be said of C. I've seen threads both here and on XO in which Mich posters go out of their way to ask law professors (in those "law prof taking Qs" threads) concerned questions about Mich's rep w/o giving further details... Brian Leiter has also made similar allusions, and he's an alumnus as well.

I hate to be so vague, and my hope is that it is just micro-rankings bullshit coupled with an unexpectedly bad OCI year.


The rankings supposedly changed their criteria after that first year which is what led to the drop (which really wasn't a drop, just a different evaluation). It was only the first time the rankings came out that they were next to harvard. I don't think them being ranked higher meant anything. They have been ranked in the same general area since then. I think their rep is fine. I think they may suffer some from their location, in terms of attracting and keeping faculty. Overall though I think they are generally where they always have been. What matters most is their job placement is consistent with their peer group.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby Verity » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:40 pm

On TLS, little else seems to matter but job placement. That would yield a totally different ranking line-up, and a different scheme (by region, goals, etc.). Berkeley would be knocked out of place hard.

Unless lay prestige is catching up with Michigan, it doesn't seem that job placement or anything else is bringing it down.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby Bronte » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:47 pm

dabbadon8 wrote:
flcath wrote:
dabbadon8 wrote:TLS 0L's looking at the historic rankings prior to this years rankings which having michigan moving down from three to nine. That combined with stories about a piss poor oci in which the career services office told students to bid in a way that apparently screwed people over. I wouldn't worry about those things. I think they learned from the oci experience (I asked about it during asw). I wouldn't worry about the rankings one way or another.

Any chance it goes deeper than the rankings? Besides aren't they at #7 right now?

It's open knowledge that they've gone from being a notch below HY (40 years ago) to where they are now, but the same can be said of C. I've seen threads both here and on XO in which Mich posters go out of their way to ask law professors (in those "law prof taking Qs" threads) concerned questions about Mich's rep w/o giving further details... Brian Leiter has also made similar allusions, and he's an alumnus as well.

I hate to be so vague, and my hope is that it is just micro-rankings bullshit coupled with an unexpectedly bad OCI year.


The rankings supposedly changed their criteria after that first year which is what led to the drop (which really wasn't a drop, just a different evaluation). It was only the first time the rankings came out that they were next to harvard. I don't think them being ranked higher meant anything. They have been ranked in the same general area since then. I think their rep is fine. I think they may suffer some from their location, in terms of attracting and keeping faculty. Overall though I think they are generally where they always have been. What matters most is their job placement is consistent with their peer group.


Correct. It's general ignorance, not general knowledge, that the school "went from HY to where it is now." Michigan was #3 the first year the rankings came out, and due to a change in methodology, it went to where it is now now, a solid T10, which is where it's always been, and likely always will be. Despite the rumors about bad OCI, the NJL 250 numbers have consistently shown Michigan to be right where it should be. Every ranking, from US News to Leiter, has the school in its correct position.

I go to Michigan, so I'm obviously biased, but the plethora of rankings on the subject are not. Further, the statistics that OCI has handed out show that Michigan has consistently placed large percentages of its class into the largest and most prestigious firms in the country.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby flcath » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:36 pm

Bronte wrote:Correct. It's general ignorance, not general knowledge, that the school "went from HY to where it is now." Michigan was #3 the first year the rankings came out, and due to a change in methodology, it went to where it is now now, a solid T10, which is where it's always been, and likely always will be.

Look, I said 40 years ago, not 25. I was referring to this quote from Brian Leiter:

"Reputations die hard and are long in being born-especially among attorneys. In 1970, the top five law schools were Harvard, Yale, and Michigan, with Columbia, Stanford, and Chicago fighting it out for the remaining two spots. Penn was just on the cusp of the "top five," Virginia was clearly top ten, and then some mix of Duke, Northwestern, Texas, and Berkeley fought it out for the remaining top ten spots. Cornell was surely top 15, NYU might have been top 15, Vanderbilt was surely top 20, and Georgetown might have been top 20. UCLA was a brand new law school, just a half-dozen years old."

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2003 ... onal.shtml

I was NOT referring to a one-year blip on USNews.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby Bronte » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:39 pm

flcath wrote:
Bronte wrote:Correct. It's general ignorance, not general knowledge, that the school "went from HY to where it is now." Michigan was #3 the first year the rankings came out, and due to a change in methodology, it went to where it is now now, a solid T10, which is where it's always been, and likely always will be.

Look, I said 40 years ago, not 25. I was referring to this quote from Brian Leiter:

"Reputations die hard and are long in being born-especially among attorneys. In 1970, the top five law schools were Harvard, Yale, and Michigan, with Columbia, Stanford, and Chicago fighting it out for the remaining two spots. Penn was just on the cusp of the "top five," Virginia was clearly top ten, and then some mix of Duke, Northwestern, Texas, and Berkeley fought it out for the remaining top ten spots. Cornell was surely top 15, NYU might have been top 15, Vanderbilt was surely top 20, and Georgetown might have been top 20. UCLA was a brand new law school, just a half-dozen years old."

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2003 ... onal.shtml

I was NOT referring to a one-year blip on USNews.


Whether or not that's true, I don't know, but regardless what happened 25 years ago is irrelevant to whether or not Michigan is currently declining from the position that it has held for the last quarter century, especially given that whatever decline did occur was small. Further, the perception that Michigan may once have been a member of HYM is if anything an advantage. My boss, who graduated from law school decades ago, still considers Michigan a top five school. This at the very least cancels out with the fact that the person whom you spoke to thinks Michigan slightly declined sometime in the 1980s.
Last edited by Bronte on Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:40 pm

IBQuakerOats.

flcath
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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby flcath » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:46 pm

Bronte wrote:
flcath wrote:
Bronte wrote:Correct. It's general ignorance, not general knowledge, that the school "went from HY to where it is now." Michigan was #3 the first year the rankings came out, and due to a change in methodology, it went to where it is now now, a solid T10, which is where it's always been, and likely always will be.

Look, I said 40 years ago, not 25. I was referring to this quote from Brian Leiter:

"Reputations die hard and are long in being born-especially among attorneys. In 1970, the top five law schools were Harvard, Yale, and Michigan, with Columbia, Stanford, and Chicago fighting it out for the remaining two spots. Penn was just on the cusp of the "top five," Virginia was clearly top ten, and then some mix of Duke, Northwestern, Texas, and Berkeley fought it out for the remaining top ten spots. Cornell was surely top 15, NYU might have been top 15, Vanderbilt was surely top 20, and Georgetown might have been top 20. UCLA was a brand new law school, just a half-dozen years old."

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2003 ... onal.shtml

I was NOT referring to a one-year blip on USNews.


Whether or not that's true, I don't know, but regardless what happened 25 years ago is irrelevant to whether or not Michigan is currently declining from the position that it has held for the last quarter century, especially given that whatever decline did occur was small.

Yeah, I suspect it's irrelevant as well. That's why I asked whether these things I've been hearing are just a reference to that, in which case it's nothing to worry about... Then you went on to challenge the premise, so I put up the quote from BL.

Do you feel there's any type of ongoing decline (especially relative to V and P) at M? I'd appreciate your frankness, and I've already apologized for being so vague. Also, do you think the large class size hurts?

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby Bronte » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:02 pm

flcath wrote:Yeah, I suspect it's irrelevant as well. That's why I asked whether these things I've been hearing are just a reference to that, in which case it's nothing to worry about... Then you went on to challenge the premise, so I put up the quote from BL.

Do you feel there's any type of ongoing decline (especially relative to V and P) at M? I'd appreciate your frankness, and I've already apologized for being so vague. Also, do you think the large class size hurts?


From the position of a rising 2L, it's difficult to assess employment prospects any more accurately than as an 0L. One set of data that I have that you probably don't--the GPA and offer sheet of previous OCI--indicates that Michigan has placed large quantity of students into all the most prestigious firms in the country (with the exception of Wachtell, which does not come to OCI, and only OCIs at private schools). Around 150 firms are coming to OCI. Otherwise, you probably have all the data that I have.

US News rankings indicate that Michigan still maintains its historic (at least for the past 25+ years) reputation. NLJ 250 rankings also demonstrate that Michigan has held or increased it's position, including during the crisis. Other rankings, including stupid rankings like Super Lawyers and other rankings like Leiter, continue to put Michigan in its deserved position.

As far as anecdotal evidence, I've heard upperclassmen lamenting their employment situation. I have a feeling you hear the same at Harvard and certainly at Virginia and Penn. For the most part, however, most upperclassman seem to be employed and seem to be happy. The overall vibe at the school is that of a group of relatively modest people at a top caliber institution. All the 1Ls I know got summer positions with firms, federal judges, state supreme courts, federal executive departments, local government departments, or NGOs. I don't know any 1Ls that didn't get a legal job.

I strongly believe that the rankings in terms of employment prospects are something like HYS, CCN, MVPDN, BGCTV. I don't think there's any significant differentiation between MVPDN and maybe BGC. (I also have no interest in debating the latter part of those rankings, as it really doesn't matter to me.) I don't think you can go wrong choosing between MVPDN. Good luck.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby K.R.I.T. » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:16 pm

flcath wrote:
Bronte wrote:
flcath wrote:
Bronte wrote:Correct. It's general ignorance, not general knowledge, that the school "went from HY to where it is now." Michigan was #3 the first year the rankings came out, and due to a change in methodology, it went to where it is now now, a solid T10, which is where it's always been, and likely always will be.

Look, I said 40 years ago, not 25. I was referring to this quote from Brian Leiter:

"Reputations die hard and are long in being born-especially among attorneys. In 1970, the top five law schools were Harvard, Yale, and Michigan, with Columbia, Stanford, and Chicago fighting it out for the remaining two spots. Penn was just on the cusp of the "top five," Virginia was clearly top ten, and then some mix of Duke, Northwestern, Texas, and Berkeley fought it out for the remaining top ten spots. Cornell was surely top 15, NYU might have been top 15, Vanderbilt was surely top 20, and Georgetown might have been top 20. UCLA was a brand new law school, just a half-dozen years old."

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2003 ... onal.shtml

I was NOT referring to a one-year blip on USNews.


Whether or not that's true, I don't know, but regardless what happened 25 years ago is irrelevant to whether or not Michigan is currently declining from the position that it has held for the last quarter century, especially given that whatever decline did occur was small.

Yeah, I suspect it's irrelevant as well. That's why I asked whether these things I've been hearing are just a reference to that, in which case it's nothing to worry about... Then you went on to challenge the premise, so I put up the quote from BL.

Do you feel there's any type of ongoing decline (especially relative to V and P) at M? I'd appreciate your frankness, and I've already apologized for being so vague. Also, do you think the large class size hurts?


I'd be more worried about getting into Michigan rather than pissing my panties about ranking rumors. Nice picture of yourself. I'd recommend applying to UVA, Broseph.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby kwais » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:17 pm

K.R.I.T. wrote: I'd be more worried about getting into Michigan rather than pissing my panties about ranking rumors. Nice picture of yourself. I'd recommend applying to UVA, Broseph.

:shock: :lol:

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby quakeroats » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:31 pm

The fate of the school is tied to the state of Michigan. In twenty years, things are probably going to look a lot worse than they do now.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby Bronte » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:37 pm

quakeroats wrote:The fate of the school is tied to the state of Michigan. In twenty years, things are probably going to look a lot worse than they do now.


The state has been in serious decay for at least the past decade, if not the past two. If anything, its situation will probably improve. You often posit this absurd notion, but its obvious fallacy is the fact that the school receives negligible funding from the state and places a negligible quantity of self-selecting students into the state. Thus, it's prospects are only tied to the state in the most negligible way.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby tfer2222 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:55 pm

K.R.I.T. wrote:
I'd be more worried about getting into Michigan rather than pissing my panties about ranking rumors. Nice picture of yourself. I'd recommend applying to UVA, Broseph.


lol @ self-picture avatar.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby bdubs » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:57 pm

flcath wrote:
Bronte wrote:Correct. It's general ignorance, not general knowledge, that the school "went from HY to where it is now." Michigan was #3 the first year the rankings came out, and due to a change in methodology, it went to where it is now now, a solid T10, which is where it's always been, and likely always will be.

Look, I said 40 years ago, not 25. I was referring to this quote from Brian Leiter:

"Reputations die hard and are long in being born-especially among attorneys. In 1970, the top five law schools were Harvard, Yale, and Michigan, with Columbia, Stanford, and Chicago fighting it out for the remaining two spots. Penn was just on the cusp of the "top five," Virginia was clearly top ten, and then some mix of Duke, Northwestern, Texas, and Berkeley fought it out for the remaining top ten spots. Cornell was surely top 15, NYU might have been top 15, Vanderbilt was surely top 20, and Georgetown might have been top 20. UCLA was a brand new law school, just a half-dozen years old."

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2003 ... onal.shtml

I was NOT referring to a one-year blip on USNews.


This is true of almost all reputation issues prior to the widespread adoption of the internet. In the 1970s and 1980s there were no recognized rankings for higher education and the reputations of institutions were shaped much more by the influence of their graduates. As information dissemination has changed students, employers, and other industry participants have changed how they view schools in light of highly visible public data.

TLDR version: increased transparency has changed the higher education reputation game.
Last edited by bdubs on Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:58 pm

IBQO.






DAMMIT

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quakeroats
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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby quakeroats » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:04 pm

Bronte wrote:
quakeroats wrote:The fate of the school is tied to the state of Michigan. In twenty years, things are probably going to look a lot worse than they do now.


The state has been in serious decay for at least the past decade, if not the past two. If anything, its situation will probably improve. You often posit this absurd notion, but its obvious fallacy is the fact that the school receives negligible funding from the state and places a negligible quantity of self-selecting students into the state. Thus, it's prospects are only tied to the state in the most negligible way.


It's not funding that's the problem, it's attracting students and faculty. Michigan's faculty has taken a big hit in the last 20 years, and you can see the difficult time its had attracting students in its entering class numbers. What's going to happen once Chrysler and GM are allowed to implode? Ann Arbor isn't 40 miles from the heart of Detroit and 10-20 minutes from other decaying areas. How many world-class universities can hang on when the area around them declines with no end in sight?

Think about it like this: would you attend Ole Miss if it were a top school?

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby shoeshine » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:09 pm

Honestly, every school has its haters. If you read TLS (and were looking for this type of info) you could find negative info about Boalt, Penn, UVA, NYU, GULC and many more awesome schools. Are they really in decline? Probably not.

Are there small indicators and anecodotal evidence that could suggest these schools are in decline? Hell yes.

The T14 rankings always shuffle around but on a longer time line (10+ years) most of the movement amounts to statistical noise.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby backtothebeat » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:14 pm

quakeroats wrote:
Think about it like this: would you attend Ole Miss if it were a top school?


yes

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby Bronte » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:15 pm

quakeroats wrote:It's not funding that's the problem, it's attracting students and faculty. Michigan's faculty has taken a big hit in the last 20 years, and you can see the difficult time its had attracting students in its entering class numbers. What's going to happen once Chrysler and GM are allowed to implode? Ann Arbor isn't 40 miles from the heart of Detroit and 10-20 minutes from other decaying areas. How many world-class universities can hang on when the area around them declines with no end in sight?

Think about it like this: would you attend Ole Miss if it were a top school?


Yeah its incoming numbers have dropped so much that it moved up to number seven in USNWR. Have you ever been to Ann Arbor? They have top primary education, and it's a fabulous place to raise kids. There are top grad programs across the board at the school and top sports programs. Professors love the area, and many turn down offers at HYS because of that.

As for the automakers imploding, do you watch the news? They were rescued by the federal government, and they're having a resurgence. Overall, you're insistence that the state has anything to do with the prospects of what is effectively an elite private graduate institution that places almost all of its grads into major markets is just the result of some perverse obsession that you have. You're a well known troll (as evidence by all the "in before quakeroats" comments in any thread that references Michigan), and you're reaching for straws. Get a life.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby bdubs » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:19 pm

quakeroats wrote:Think about it like this: would you attend Ole Miss if it were a top school?


I find this amusing coming from a Duke student. Many choose not to attend Michigan because of its location, but many also like Ann Arbor. Durham is in the same boat, it doesn't have the wide spread appeal of New York, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago or DC.

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Re: ITT: You tell me about Michigan's decay into TTTdom

Postby K.R.I.T. » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:20 pm

You're a well known troll (as evidence by all the "in before quakeroats" comments in any thread that references Michigan), and you're reaching for straws. Get a life.


OOOOOOh Snap! You just got jacked up!




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