Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which to choose?

W&M with 69K scholarship
47
52%
Georgetown sticker price
43
48%
 
Total votes: 90

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scribelaw
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby scribelaw » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:59 am

Chippy wrote:
scribelaw wrote:
The posters above are right, though: median at GULC is rough right now. It's risky to borrow that much, but then again, thousands of people borrow as much to go to third-tier schools with no prospects. At least you'll have a 1/3 shot.


So the bad investments of third-tier law students somehow justifies a ridiculously bad investment of GULC students paying sticker? If the law student don't hit the 1/3 mark (which no 0L can know before entering law school, but as a waitlisted student, I bet his/her LSAT/GPA correlates with far below median), the 200k in debt is going to become out of control very quickly. Even if they get big law, the student would need to remain for several years (i.e. doesn't get sheath laid-off, fired, find they hate the work, offers rescinded or delayed, etc). What are the chances of all those factors working out?


You are right; I don't think GULC at sticker is worth it. I was trying to offer advice between two options the OP presented.

But I'd say there's a 1/3 change (maybe slightly better if hiring bounces back a little bit) at OCI. GULC does have a great LRAP program and Georgetown plays pretty well in secondary markets, if OP has any ties to one. I'd say the chances of getting something decent are better than 50/50.

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Robespierre
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby Robespierre » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:55 pm

I'm probably too late, but ...

Either gamble boldly (GULC with 195K debt) or don't gamble at all. W&M is sort of in a No Man's Land: still a significant gamble since you'll take on almost 100K debt*, yet the odds are against you since it has good-but-not-great placement power in a down economy.

[*Minor point: I say "almost 100K debt" because I think the 14K/yr living expense estimate on the W&M website is very conservative, even for Williamsburg.]

butterfly007
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby butterfly007 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:28 pm

Let us know your final decision maxmillion :D

Maxmillion
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby Maxmillion » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:39 am

Opted for W&M. The way I see it, if I do well at w&m and do not like it then I can transfer after a year and would have saved 30-40k. If I suck and do not do well then biglaw was out anyway and I have less debt.

uvahooo
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby uvahooo » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:36 pm

Maxmillion wrote:Opted for W&M. The way I see it, if I do well at w&m and do not like it then I can transfer after a year and would have saved 30-40k. If I suck and do not do well then biglaw was out anyway and I have less debt.


Williamsburg is the saddest place to live in. There is nothing to do. But, i would live in williamsburg to save 30-40k. CONGRATS on your decision.

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JCougar
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby JCougar » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:37 pm

BrianGriffintheDog wrote:If big law is what you really want, then it's Gtown all the way.


Why?

Chances are, you're not getting Biglaw from Georgetown. Unless OP has some good work experience (and good meaning working for Fortune 500 companies or paralegal experience at a NLJ 250 law firm), you're probably screwed graduating median at G-town.

The lower end of the T14 is no longer a good gamble to get Biglaw if you're paying sticker there. Honestly, the only schools where it's a good idea to pay sticker these days are the T5.

Also, keep in mind that Biglaw jobs are so horrible that most people quit after only a few years. Your entire life is consumed by these jobs. You work basically every saturday, and often a few hours on Sunday; even if you take vacation, you're constantly answering e-mails and phone calls, interrupting your vacation, etc. It's not a lifestyle for everyone, although there are some that are fine with it. But the moral of the story is, even if you DO get Biglaw, you may not last long enough to pay off all that extra debt.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:41 pm

JCougar wrote:
BrianGriffintheDog wrote:If big law is what you really want, then it's Gtown all the way.


Why?

Chances are, you're not getting Biglaw from Georgetown. Unless OP has some good work experience (and good meaning working for Fortune 500 companies or paralegal experience at a NLJ 250 law firm), you're probably screwed graduating median at G-town.

The lower end of the T14 is no longer a good gamble to get Biglaw if you're paying sticker there. Honestly, the only schools where it's a good idea to pay sticker these days are the T5.

Also, keep in mind that Biglaw jobs are so horrible that most people quit after only a few years. Your entire life is consumed by these jobs. You work basically every saturday, and often a few hours on Sunday; even if you take vacation, you're constantly answering e-mails and phone calls, interrupting your vacation, etc. It's not a lifestyle for everyone, although there are some that are fine with it. But the moral of the story is, even if you DO get Biglaw, you may not last long enough to pay off all that extra debt.


Eh Cornell is as good as any other non-T5 school for big law. It had one bad year. If you look at other years (the years before and the year after), it is as good as or better than many of the others.

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Grizz
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby Grizz » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:46 pm

W&M; temper your biglaw goals.

framboozer
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby framboozer » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:57 pm

JCougar wrote:Also, keep in mind that Biglaw jobs are so horrible that most people quit after only a few years. Your entire life is consumed by these jobs. You work basically every saturday, and often a few hours on Sunday; even if you take vacation, you're constantly answering e-mails and phone calls, interrupting your vacation, etc. It's not a lifestyle for everyone, although there are some that are fine with it. But the moral of the story is, even if you DO get Biglaw, you may not last long enough to pay off all that extra debt.


Where are you getting this info from? Personal experience? Friends who went through it? Or just from other people posting on a forum? I'm just curious. This isn't meant to be a challenge.


And OP, I think you made a sound decision. Congrats!

Maxmillion
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby Maxmillion » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:12 pm

framboozer wrote:
JCougar wrote:Also, keep in mind that Biglaw jobs are so horrible that most people quit after only a few years. Your entire life is consumed by these jobs. You work basically every saturday, and often a few hours on Sunday; even if you take vacation, you're constantly answering e-mails and phone calls, interrupting your vacation, etc. It's not a lifestyle for everyone, although there are some that are fine with it. But the moral of the story is, even if you DO get Biglaw, you may not last long enough to pay off all that extra debt.


Where are you getting this info from? Personal experience? Friends who went through it? Or just from other people posting on a forum? I'm just curious. This isn't meant to be a challenge.


And OP, I think you made a sound decision. Congrats!


Thank you. I hope it works out and I feel like W&M is not a school to take lightly. I guess we will know if I made the right move come the end of the semester. Cheers for the help everyone; TLS was very helpful in providing solid insight.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:14 pm

Yeah, congrats OP you made the right decision! You didn't fall for the dreaded GULC sticker trap.

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JCougar
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby JCougar » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:54 pm

framboozer wrote:
JCougar wrote:Also, keep in mind that Biglaw jobs are so horrible that most people quit after only a few years. Your entire life is consumed by these jobs. You work basically every saturday, and often a few hours on Sunday; even if you take vacation, you're constantly answering e-mails and phone calls, interrupting your vacation, etc. It's not a lifestyle for everyone, although there are some that are fine with it. But the moral of the story is, even if you DO get Biglaw, you may not last long enough to pay off all that extra debt.


Where are you getting this info from? Personal experience? Friends who went through it? Or just from other people posting on a forum? I'm just curious. This isn't meant to be a challenge.


And OP, I think you made a sound decision. Congrats!


Associate attrition is a huge problem with Biglaw firms. It's pretty much common knowledge.

framboozer
Posts: 213
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby framboozer » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:30 am

JCougar wrote:
framboozer wrote:
JCougar wrote:Also, keep in mind that Biglaw jobs are so horrible that most people quit after only a few years. Your entire life is consumed by these jobs. You work basically every saturday, and often a few hours on Sunday; even if you take vacation, you're constantly answering e-mails and phone calls, interrupting your vacation, etc. It's not a lifestyle for everyone, although there are some that are fine with it. But the moral of the story is, even if you DO get Biglaw, you may not last long enough to pay off all that extra debt.


Where are you getting this info from? Personal experience? Friends who went through it? Or just from other people posting on a forum? I'm just curious. This isn't meant to be a challenge.


And OP, I think you made a sound decision. Congrats!


Associate attrition is a huge problem with Biglaw firms. It's pretty much common knowledge.


I think my main point is that not all biglaw is created equal and certainly not all firms are. There are plenty of associates who don't work those crazy hours or who only have to rarely because it is in their contract.

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Grizz
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby Grizz » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:45 am

framboozer wrote:I think my main point is that not all biglaw is created equal and certainly not all firms are. There are plenty of associates who don't work those crazy hours or who only have to rarely because it is in their contract.

Maybe in some smaller markets, but they don't pay someone who functionally knows nothing $160,000 market and expect you to have a nice work-life balance.

framboozer
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Re: Off a WL, need to decide by morning. W&M $$$$ or Gtown

Postby framboozer » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:48 pm

rad law wrote:
framboozer wrote:I think my main point is that not all biglaw is created equal and certainly not all firms are. There are plenty of associates who don't work those crazy hours or who only have to rarely because it is in their contract.

Maybe in some smaller markets, but they don't pay someone who functionally knows nothing $160,000 market and expect you to have a nice work-life balance.


Well the market I work in is New York, so definitely not a smaller market. And because it's such a large market, you're going to find variability amongst law firms. All I'll say is that the firm I work in (Doin' my thing as a paralegal before i rush into law school) definitely does not fit the stereotype. I don't know of any lawyers who are working every weekend, even though some certaintly work much more than others. If anything, some of the paralegals are working far more than the attorneys.

The firm may not pay you $160,000 and allow you to have a nice work-life balance, but they may pay you $125,000 and grant that gift to you. The understanding, however, is that you will never become partner in all likelihood This is how it works where I work, and I'm now curious to see how many other firms do the same thing.

And when it comes to first years, they're going to be given a lot less responsibility, because like you said, they know functionally nothing, so they're not going to be trusted to be working those ridiculous hours without guidance and supervision.




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