Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which one?

Fordham at sticker
31
47%
Brooklyn with a full scholarship
35
53%
 
Total votes: 66

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ndirish2010
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:01 pm

blsingindisguise wrote:
Master Tofu wrote:2) I doubt Fordham is even 1/4 Biglaw in the current climate.


What's BLS's %?

Look, I think debt is an important factor to consider but I think it would be somewhat disingenuous to say that there are not differences in employment outcomes between the two. It's fine to troll for your school but don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.


Lol BLS is around 5%. I would never suggest that anyone has a realistic shot of biglaw going into BLS. Not throwing stones at all, just pointing out something that might be unrealistic in the comparison. 1 in 4 still sounds like a pretty good shot to some people. What if it's 1 in 5, 1 in 6, 1 in 7? Honestly neither school is a good option if you really want biglaw -- your best bet in that case is to retake the LSAT and aim higher. But if a person must choose between these two, I would say BLS with the full ride. From talking to friends at Fordham, I'm glad I made that choice.[/quote]

1 in 4 seems about right. This means it is not worth it without a substantial scholarship.

KInDA
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby KInDA » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:18 pm

Hi,

I am currently dealing with a very similar choice. So I need advice. I have just a few days to decide.

I saw the poll and 23 ppl voted fordham in this threa,but when I read it,it sounded like the worst idea ever.

I have been silently reading tls for months,and never really read anything that negative about fordham before.

Anyone willing to counterbalance this thread and give some more input?

It would be great!

Chippy
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:25 pm

Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby Chippy » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:43 pm

KInDA wrote:Hi,

I am currently dealing with a very similar choice. So I need advice. I have just a few days to decide.

I saw the poll and 23 ppl voted fordham in this threa,but when I read it,it sounded like the worst idea ever.

I have been silently reading tls for months,and never really read anything that negative about fordham before.

Anyone willing to counterbalance this thread and give some more input?

It would be great!


Unless mom and pops are footing the bill, you are stupid to go to Fordham. Period. You are playing with major fire when your debt load goes over 50-60k, let alone 200k+. A very small percentage of the class will ever be able to service that debt (1. Top 1/4, get biglaw 2. Work it for several years to service the debt and live in a big market, and not get layed off, fired or find out you hate the work).

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bk1
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:46 pm

Chippy wrote:You are playing with major fire when your debt load goes over 50-60k


Well this is hyperbolic in the extreme.

Chippy
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby Chippy » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:49 pm

bk1 wrote:
Chippy wrote:You are playing with major fire when your debt load goes over 50-60k


Well this is hyperbolic in the extreme.


Unless we are talking about the upper group of T14 schools. Your total debt load should never rise above the amount you will receive as your first year's salary.

I wouldn't go to a T1 school without a full ride or 3/4 of a ride.

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bk1
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:53 pm

Chippy wrote:Unless we are talking about the upper group of T14 schools. Your total debt load should never rise above the amount you will receive as your first year's salary.


That's a nice thought and I understand the sentiment but that isn't realistic. Very few people get full tuition scholarships, which is what it would require to have 50-60k debt because that kind of debt won't even cover CoL. I, personally, feel like a strong regional school is worth paying around 100k debt because at that price you can be debt free in about a decade on a smalllaw salary. Is that more than I would want to take out for that kind of school? Sure, but if you want to be a lawyer it's hard to have the kind of options that you are talking about and taking out 100k is still reasonable for strong regional schools even if it isn't ideal.

Chippy
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby Chippy » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:59 pm

bk1 wrote:
Chippy wrote:Unless we are talking about the upper group of T14 schools. Your total debt load should never rise above the amount you will receive as your first year's salary.


That's a nice thought and I understand the sentiment but that isn't realistic. Very few people get full tuition scholarships, which is what it would require to have 50-60k debt because that kind of debt won't even cover CoL. I, personally, feel like a strong regional school is worth paying around 100k debt because at that price you can be debt free in about a decade on a smalllaw salary. Is that more than I would want to take out for that kind of school? Sure, but if you want to be a lawyer it's hard to have the kind of options that you are talking about and taking out 100k is still reasonable for strong regional schools even if it isn't ideal.


I live on 9k-10k a year- but then again I am not out there recklessly spending money like most law student do. My total debt will be around 25k-30k. Even that scares me.

100k isn't reasonable under current market conditions (unless we are talking about the upper group of T14 schools). These small-law jobs aren't easy to get for T1 students. You have a very good chance of being unemployed for a significant period of time- and worrying about non-dischargable, high interest student loan debt. Doc Review wouldn't even get close to servicing 100k.

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bk1
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:08 pm

Chippy wrote:I live on 9k-10k a year- but then again I am not out there recklessly spending money like most law student do. My total debt will be around 25k-30k.

100k isn't reasonable under current market conditions (unless we are talking about the upper group of T14 schools). These small-law jobs aren't easy to get for T1 students. You have a very good chance of being unemployed for a significant period of time- and worrying about non-dischargable, high interest student loan debt. Doc Review wouldn't even get close to servicing 100k.


9k-10k seems insane. While I can see cutting luxuries (e.g. TV, money for personal stuff), cutting on stuff that people consider important (e.g. Internet, spending over $200 a month on food, health insurance) and being in a low CoL area to get real cheap, I'm still finding $800/month to be absurd.

You're right, doc review won't get close to servicing 100k debt but even a small firm job can get you out of that in 10 years or so. Do a decent number of kids from strong regionals (or even T14s) end up in doc review? Of course they do and while yes it is "hard" to get a smalllaw job for strong regional kids, the vast majority of them still get those jobs.

Chippy
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby Chippy » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:19 pm

bk1 wrote:
Chippy wrote:I live on 9k-10k a year- but then again I am not out there recklessly spending money like most law student do. My total debt will be around 25k-30k.

100k isn't reasonable under current market conditions (unless we are talking about the upper group of T14 schools). These small-law jobs aren't easy to get for T1 students. You have a very good chance of being unemployed for a significant period of time- and worrying about non-dischargable, high interest student loan debt. Doc Review wouldn't even get close to servicing 100k.


9k-10k seems insane. While I can see cutting luxuries (e.g. TV, money for personal stuff), cutting on stuff that people consider important (e.g. Internet, spending over $200 a month on food, health insurance) and being in a low CoL area to get real cheap, I'm still finding $800/month to be absurd.

You're right, doc review won't get close to servicing 100k debt but even a small firm job can get you out of that in 10 years or so. Do a decent number of kids from strong regionals (or even T14s) end up in doc review? Of course they do and while yes it is "hard" to get a smalllaw job for strong regional kids, the vast majority of them still get those jobs.
Last edited by Chippy on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:24 pm

Chippy wrote:I go to a T25 on a full ride, and I'm in the top 20-25 percent of my class and I'm afraid. While I will probably end up with someone low-paying in the regional market- I think a good percentage of the class just strikes out period. The numbers the schools publish are such bullshit nobody really knows the percentage of people that are just working bestbuy.


I think LST's employment breakdown is a pretty decent way at getting at how bad it really is. It also probably depends on what region you're in. At a place like UCD or IUB you're probably looking at a significantly larger portion missing out than you would at Minnesota or GW.

And yes a good portion does strike out at pretty much any strong regional (according to LST it is around 20% at a minimum but it gets drastically worse depending on school, see: UCD/UCH).

Chippy
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby Chippy » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:35 pm

We can reasonably assume that those not reporting are probably unemployed or working retail. UCD is pathetic. From the numbers, I think we can reasonably say less than half the class has law jobs.

Would you honestly recommend that someone go to a school like UCD ("a strong regional school") and take out 100k? With around 50 percent legal employment?

blsingindisguise
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby blsingindisguise » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:48 pm

BTW, don't know what happened above, but my post somehow got posted under the name ndirish2010. Mods?

SchopenhauerFTW
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:53 pm

blsingindisguise wrote:BTW, don't know what happened above, but my post somehow got posted under the name ndirish2010. Mods?

So you were quoting yourself and responding to yourself?

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bk1
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:54 pm

Chippy wrote:We can reasonably assume that those not reporting are probably unemployed or working retail. UCD is pathetic. From the numbers, I think we can reasonably say less than half the class has law jobs.

Would you honestly recommend that someone go to a school like UCD ("a strong regional school") and take out 100k? With around 50 percent legal employment?


I agree with your assumption.

Personally I think it's a mediocre bet, but I don't agree with your blanket statement clustering all non "upper tier T14" schools together (a sliding scale makes much more sense). 100k looks a lot more reasonable at BC/Fordham than it does at UCD. The problem is that certain schools place poorly because of their region and while I would tell someone that they should change where they want to work, where they want to work really isn't a rational part of the equation.

I mean is it even a good bet to take out your 30-60k and spend 3 years worth of time for places where you only have a 50% chance of being a full time lawyer?

SchopenhauerFTW
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:54 pm

Chippy wrote:UCD is pathetic. From the numbers, I think we can reasonably say less than half the class has law jobs.

Where are these numbers btw?

get it to x
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby get it to x » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:57 pm

Fordham has to be one of the most dangerous investments at full price around. It has a B- curve and if you are not in the top 1/4 of the class, your chance of Biglaw falls precipitously. Does it give you a better shot than a SJU or Brooklyn? Yes if you're confident that you can be in the top 1/4 of the class or above. If not, your employment prospects are just as good as SJU, Brooklyn, Cardozo, etc. Take the money, work smart and hard, and be thankful you won't be 200k+ in debt from tuition and NYC cost of living.

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bk1
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:58 pm

SchopenhauerFTW wrote:
Chippy wrote:UCD is pathetic. From the numbers, I think we can reasonably say less than half the class has law jobs.

Where are these numbers btw?


I don't think it's that far off. LST has 66% in full time lawyer jobs. If you fudge it slightly for the fact that LST is probably overestimating (due to their FT/PT assumption) plus you throw in the New Republic article that showed that a portion of people were lying about being FT/PT and about being temporary/permanent, and you add in the fact that the LST data is 2009... I honestly would not be surprised if it is somewhere around 50% full time lawyer jobs at UCD. It's not scientific in the least, but CA really is that bad.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby blsingindisguise » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:25 pm

SchopenhauerFTW wrote:
blsingindisguise wrote:BTW, don't know what happened above, but my post somehow got posted under the name ndirish2010. Mods?

So you were quoting yourself and responding to yourself?


No! It also credited me with one of ndirish2010's posts! It basically switched us.

MrAnon
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby MrAnon » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:43 pm

Both are horrible investments. Brooklyn seems downright reckless. Going there at fullride is a waste of time mostly. So what if you keep your scholarship all the way through. No job for you unless you finish in the tippy top of the class. The days of Fordham top 1/3 to biglaw are long gone and not coming back. Every year people think the job market is going to get better, or this is the year. Yeah right. Maybe top 1/5 get biglaw now. The other 80% of the class? Good luck paying off those loans.

Master Tofu
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby Master Tofu » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:45 pm

get it to x wrote:Fordham has to be one of the most dangerous investments at full price around. It has a B- curve and if you are not in the top 1/4 of the class, your chance of Biglaw falls precipitously. Does it give you a better shot than a SJU or Brooklyn? Yes if you're confident that you can be in the top 1/4 of the class or above. If not, your employment prospects are just as good as SJU, Brooklyn, Cardozo, etc. Take the money, work smart and hard, and be thankful you won't be 200k+ in debt from tuition and NYC cost of living.



This is not true. 1L curve is B to B+. 50% gets B+ or higher.

KInDA wrote:Hi,

I am currently dealing with a very similar choice. So I need advice. I have just a few days to decide.

I saw the poll and 23 ppl voted fordham in this threa,but when I read it,it sounded like the worst idea ever.

I have been silently reading tls for months,and never really read anything that negative about fordham before.

Anyone willing to counterbalance this thread and give some more input?

It would be great!


What do you want to hear?

Master Tofu
Posts: 235
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby Master Tofu » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:52 pm

MrAnon wrote:Both are horrible investments. Brooklyn seems downright reckless. Going there at fullride is a waste of time mostly. So what if you keep your scholarship all the way through. No job for you unless you finish in the tippy top of the class. The days of Fordham top 1/3 to biglaw are long gone and not coming back. Every year people think the job market is going to get better, or this is the year. Yeah right. Maybe top 1/5 get biglaw now. The other 80% of the class? Good luck paying off those loans.


I think you should consider debt as a factor but I don't think it should paralyze you. Despite what is TLS conventional wisdom, it is not big law or bust. Believe it or not, you can not work in a large law firm and still live reasonably comfortably, especially nowadays with income-based repayment. Also, your career doesn't end because you didn't get an offer from a large law firm.

By ways of a PSA, you all are applying to be a lawyer, an individual who will be highly compensated for your judgment and expertise. Please don't tie your self-worth or future earning potential to what happens in 2 weeks of testing. That is terrible judgment and will be why you will be paid terribly.

Bitey
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby Bitey » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:57 pm

Master Tofu wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Both are horrible investments. Brooklyn seems downright reckless. Going there at fullride is a waste of time mostly. So what if you keep your scholarship all the way through. No job for you unless you finish in the tippy top of the class. The days of Fordham top 1/3 to biglaw are long gone and not coming back. Every year people think the job market is going to get better, or this is the year. Yeah right. Maybe top 1/5 get biglaw now. The other 80% of the class? Good luck paying off those loans.


I think you should consider debt as a factor but I don't think it should paralyze you. Despite what is TLS conventional wisdom, it is not big law or bust. Believe it or not, you can not work in a large law firm and still live reasonably comfortably, especially nowadays with income-based repayment. Also, your career doesn't end because you didn't get an offer from a large law firm.

By ways of a PSA, you all are applying to be a lawyer, an individual who will be highly compensated for your judgment and expertise. Please don't tie your self-worth or future earning potential to what happens in 2 weeks of testing.


Do they pay you to write such drivel?

When you have 200k worth of debt, it is biglaw or bust. Even theoretically, if a person starts small (small law, begin unemployed, doc review) and works their way up- the 200k has accrued so much interest that repayment is impossible. You have to service the debt early and often to have any chance to pay back the high interest, non dischargeable student loans.

This touch-feely crap about the "profession" is just bullshit. The question 0Ls should be asking is whether law school is a prudent investment- just like any other product or commodity. Law school, especially expensive schools like Fordham, are bad investments period. At least normal investors can get out of bad buys- with law schools debt sticks with you for life.

Master Tofu
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby Master Tofu » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:04 pm

Bitey wrote:
Master Tofu wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Both are horrible investments. Brooklyn seems downright reckless. Going there at fullride is a waste of time mostly. So what if you keep your scholarship all the way through. No job for you unless you finish in the tippy top of the class. The days of Fordham top 1/3 to biglaw are long gone and not coming back. Every year people think the job market is going to get better, or this is the year. Yeah right. Maybe top 1/5 get biglaw now. The other 80% of the class? Good luck paying off those loans.


I think you should consider debt as a factor but I don't think it should paralyze you. Despite what is TLS conventional wisdom, it is not big law or bust. Believe it or not, you can not work in a large law firm and still live reasonably comfortably, especially nowadays with income-based repayment. Also, your career doesn't end because you didn't get an offer from a large law firm.

By ways of a PSA, you all are applying to be a lawyer, an individual who will be highly compensated for your judgment and expertise. Please don't tie your self-worth or future earning potential to what happens in 2 weeks of testing.


Do they pay you to write such drivel?

When you have 200k worth of debt, it is biglaw or bust. Even theoretically, if a person starts small (small law, begin unemployed, doc review) and works their way up- the 200k has accrued so much interest that repayment is impossible. You have to service the debt early and often to have any chance to pay back the high interest, non dischargeable student loans.

This touch-feely crap about the "profession" is just bullshit. The question 0Ls should be asking is whether law school is a prudent investment- just like any other product or commodity. Law school, especially expensive schools like Fordham, are bad investments period. At least normal investors can get out of bad buys- with law schools debt sticks with you for life.



Yes, Fordham is paying me for this. That's why I recommended Brooklyn on page 1 of this thread. It's not touchy-feely crap about "profession", but you can treat it as such. I only engage people who can act like adults while on the interwebs.

Bitey
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby Bitey » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:11 pm

Nothing of any substance. Doesn't answer the fact that TLS is right about debt (it is the end all). Just platitudes about the merits of being a lawyer ("an individual who will be highly compensated for your judgment and expertise").

You would be great at a law school admissions office. Talk about the "profession", don't talk about the dollars and cents, encourage emotional-laden thinking. When kids ask about the importance of grades or LSAT scores, just use that line about "don't tie your self-worth or future earning potential to what happens in 2 weeks of testing". What bullshit- because those 2 weeks of testing DO determine life outcomes. Whether you find it rational or not isn't relevant.

MrAnon
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Re: Fordham (sticker) v. Brooklyn (full ride)

Postby MrAnon » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:17 pm

By ways of a PSA, you all are applying to be a lawyer, an individual who will be highly compensated for your judgment and expertise.


This is precisely why you want to avoid schools outside of the very top range. No one is falling over themselves to compensate graduates from non-premier schools for their judgment and expertise. Why on earth would they? They have trouble finding jobs in the first place, and that leads the business community to hurl fistfulls of money at them?




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