Minnesota VS GW

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

GW VS Minnesota

Minnesota
44
54%
GW
37
46%
 
Total votes: 81

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18424
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:28 am

Is GW a better school than Minnesota? Without a doubt yes. However, Minnesota isn't as bad as it seems. Looking at their 2009 LST graph, around 30% of their class ended up with 6 figure jobs which is far higher than their NLJ250 placement. This makes sense because there are likely to be large Minnesota firms that aren't necessarily NLJ250 yet still pay respectably well. Of course things are worse now, but Minnesota is still a decent school that dominates an entire state.

Without a doubt you should go to Minnesota. Minnesota is going to cost you $110,000 worth of debt (about half of the $220,000 that GW is going to cost you). That $110,000 can be feasibly payed off in around 10 years even on a smalllaw salary of around $40,000-$50,000. With the GW debt you are basically screwed if you don't get biglaw or a PSLF legal job and those things aren't likely enough coming out of GW to warrant sticker price there. While GW lines up more with your goals, the cost is in no way justifiable. If you really want the type of opportunities afforded by GW-type (or better) schools then you should retake/reapply. If not, you really should go to Minnesota and it isn't even a contest.

JamMasterJ wrote:I'm referring to the 50%+ unreported


How is this not comparable to GW's 40%+ unreported salary?

User avatar
gbpackerbacker
Posts: 634
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 12:13 am

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby gbpackerbacker » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:32 am

I voted MN for the money and COA edge.

User avatar
NYC Law
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 3:33 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:39 am

bk1 wrote:Is GW a better school than Minnesota? Without a doubt yes. However, Minnesota isn't as bad as it seems. Looking at their 2009 LST graph, around 30% of their class ended up with 6 figure jobs which is far higher than their NLJ250 placement. This makes sense because there are likely to be large Minnesota firms that aren't necessarily NLJ250 yet still pay respectably well. Of course things are worse now, but Minnesota is still a decent school that dominates an entire state.

Without a doubt you should go to Minnesota. Minnesota is going to cost you $110,000 worth of debt (about half of the $220,000 that GW is going to cost you). That $110,000 can be feasibly payed off in around 10 years even on a smalllaw salary of around $40,000-$50,000. With the GW debt you are basically screwed if you don't get biglaw or a PSLF legal job and those things aren't likely enough coming out of GW to warrant sticker price there. While GW lines up more with your goals, the cost is in no way justifiable. If you really want the type of opportunities afforded by GW-type (or better) schools then you should retake/reapply. If not, you really should go to Minnesota and it isn't even a contest.

JamMasterJ wrote:I'm referring to the 50%+ unreported


How is this not comparable to GW's 40%+ unreported salary?


Minnesota raised the COA to ~60k per year, so after interest OP would graduate with about $132k in debt (estimate, pre-interest would be around 126k). The repayments for a 10-year plan would be $1,546 per month, or $18.5k per year, not quite feasible on a $40-50k salary. Either way, once you hit six figures you need either biglaw, PSLF, or you'll be on a 20 year plan at best. GW and UMN will leave OP in a relatively similar financial position, and given OPs goals, GW seems like the better choice.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18424
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:12 am

NYC Law wrote:Minnesota raised the COA to ~60k per year, so after interest OP would graduate with about $132k in debt (estimate, pre-interest would be around 126k). The repayments for a 10-year plan would be $1,546 per month, or $18.5k per year, not quite feasible on a $40-50k salary. Either way, once you hit six figures you need either biglaw, PSLF, or you'll be on a 20 year plan at best. GW and UMN will leave OP in a relatively similar financial position, and given OPs goals, GW seems like the better choice.


Fair enough on the rise in CoA, but I still think it is a gross oversimplification to say 6 figure debt = 6 figure debt. GW and UMN aren't even in the same league in regards to financial position, GW is going to cost $220,000+ whereas Minnesota is going to be $130,000+... those numbers are not even close. While yes, $130,000 is a lot it is still far less than GW and Minnesota is far far far far far less risky than GW. With a starting $40-50k salary and a few raises I don't think it is quite out of the question to be debt free out of UMN in 10 years (probably more like 12ish, but with a 75%ish chance of happening) whereas being debt free out of GW in 10-12 years is definitely much harder (30%ish chance or so).

User avatar
deadpoetnsp
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:57 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby deadpoetnsp » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:56 am

Minnesota has consistently ranked within 20 over the last decade (except for a dip which it recovered from). It also has a lower CoA. I don't think GW is a credited response, given the much higher CoA (unless you have personal ties or reasons for being on the east coast).

User avatar
tyro
Posts: 648
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:23 am

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby tyro » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:14 am

Kind of wondering if many Chi firms interview/recruit at UMN?

jplayer
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:22 am

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby jplayer » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:14 am

bk1 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:Minnesota raised the COA to ~60k per year, so after interest OP would graduate with about $132k in debt (estimate, pre-interest would be around 126k). The repayments for a 10-year plan would be $1,546 per month, or $18.5k per year, not quite feasible on a $40-50k salary. Either way, once you hit six figures you need either biglaw, PSLF, or you'll be on a 20 year plan at best. GW and UMN will leave OP in a relatively similar financial position, and given OPs goals, GW seems like the better choice.


Fair enough on the rise in CoA, but I still think it is a gross oversimplification to say 6 figure debt = 6 figure debt. GW and UMN aren't even in the same league in regards to financial position, GW is going to cost $220,000+ whereas Minnesota is going to be $130,000+... those numbers are not even close. While yes, $130,000 is a lot it is still far less than GW and Minnesota is far far far far far less risky than GW. With a starting $40-50k salary and a few raises I don't think it is quite out of the question to be debt free out of UMN in 10 years (probably more like 12ish, but with a 75%ish chance of happening) whereas being debt free out of GW in 10-12 years is definitely much harder (30%ish chance or so).


This is right.

Also, with the top 30% making six figures I don't think the bar is set that high, despite low NLJ250 placement numbers. The two large unreported sections on LST are govt positions and low paying (<$100,00) private sector. Obviously they are massaging their numbers for US News, but still not bad at all.

As far as prestige, both the US News lawyer/judge and law firm recruiter evaluations put Minnesota slightly above GW, if you believe them to be credible.

User avatar
NYC Law
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 3:33 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:54 am

jplayer wrote:This is right.

Also, with the top 30% making six figures I don't think the bar is set that high, despite low NLJ250 placement numbers. The two large unreported sections on LST are govt positions and low paying (<$100,00) private sector. Obviously they are massaging their numbers for US News, but still not bad at all.

As far as prestige, both the US News lawyer/judge and law firm recruiter evaluations put Minnesota slightly above GW, if you believe them to be credible.


deadpoetnsp wrote:Minnesota has consistently ranked within 20 over the last decade (except for a dip which it recovered from). It also has a lower CoA. I don't think GW is a credited response, given the much higher CoA (unless you have personal ties or reasons for being on the east coast).


Regardless of what US News says, GW is more prestigious. Minnesota is a good school, but I'd just be very weary of trying to break into a market that insular with law school being your only tie. And if you ever hope to get into Appellate work, Biglaw, or a Federal Agency Minnesota just can't get you there. So overall GW is going to leave many more doors open than possible from a school like UMN.
But it is a trade-off. OP just has to decide which (s)he values more; a low debt load and probably higher QOL, or ambitions and a greater shot at top employment.

justhockey31
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:35 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby justhockey31 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:20 am

NYC Law wrote:
jplayer wrote:This is right.

Also, with the top 30% making six figures I don't think the bar is set that high, despite low NLJ250 placement numbers. The two large unreported sections on LST are govt positions and low paying (<$100,00) private sector. Obviously they are massaging their numbers for US News, but still not bad at all.

As far as prestige, both the US News lawyer/judge and law firm recruiter evaluations put Minnesota slightly above GW, if you believe them to be credible.


deadpoetnsp wrote:Minnesota has consistently ranked within 20 over the last decade (except for a dip which it recovered from). It also has a lower CoA. I don't think GW is a credited response, given the much higher CoA (unless you have personal ties or reasons for being on the east coast).


Regardless of what US News says, GW is more prestigious. Minnesota is a good school, but I'd just be very weary of trying to break into a market that insular with law school being your only tie. And if you ever hope to get into Appellate work, Biglaw, or a Federal Agency Minnesota just can't get you there. So overall GW is going to leave many more doors open than possible from a school like UMN.
But it is a trade-off. OP just has to decide which (s)he values more; a low debt load and probably higher QOL, or ambitions and a greater shot at top employment.


I think this what makes this decision so tough. I have lofty goals that I want to shoot for by going to law school but I am afraid of the debt! smh this is a tough call

User avatar
Flips88
Posts: 13670
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:42 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby Flips88 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:38 am

I'm voting UMN because while GW is a great school, it is not worth sticker. Also UMN is the top school in its home market while GW is always in the shadow of GULC. Like BK said, the debt at UMN is manageable if you land a meager salary while at GW you will be debt pwned if you don't get big law or a PI job. I can't say with certainty, but I'd be willing to bet Minneapolis is a much much much less competitive market compared to DC, where you are competing against GULC and American and every T-14. Not many kids from Columbia or Berkeley are gunning for Minneapolis, ya know?

I (and many others ITT) think UMN is clearly the best choice. Good luck with your decision.

User avatar
NYC Law
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 3:33 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:38 am

justhockey31 wrote:I think this what makes this decision so tough. I have lofty goals that I want to shoot for by going to law school but I am afraid of the debt! smh this is a tough call


Yeah and I understand the dilemma, it's one we all face. I'm openly less debt averse than many on here, but my reasoning is that you can always deal with debt later (and there are in fact a plethora of ways to deal with it), but once you pick a school that's it, that's your school and there isn't much you can do about that short of transferring (which obviously shouldn't be counted on). So may as well go to the best one possible while you still can, the one that will better suit your goals.

User avatar
JamMasterJ
Posts: 6688
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:17 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:42 am

bk1 wrote:Is GW a better school than Minnesota? Without a doubt yes. However, Minnesota isn't as bad as it seems. Looking at their 2009 LST graph, around 30% of their class ended up with 6 figure jobs which is far higher than their NLJ250 placement. This makes sense because there are likely to be large Minnesota firms that aren't necessarily NLJ250 yet still pay respectably well. Of course things are worse now, but Minnesota is still a decent school that dominates an entire state.

Without a doubt you should go to Minnesota. Minnesota is going to cost you $110,000 worth of debt (about half of the $220,000 that GW is going to cost you). That $110,000 can be feasibly payed off in around 10 years even on a smalllaw salary of around $40,000-$50,000. With the GW debt you are basically screwed if you don't get biglaw or a PSLF legal job and those things aren't likely enough coming out of GW to warrant sticker price there. While GW lines up more with your goals, the cost is in no way justifiable. If you really want the type of opportunities afforded by GW-type (or better) schools then you should retake/reapply. If not, you really should go to Minnesota and it isn't even a contest.

JamMasterJ wrote:I'm referring to the 50%+ unreported


How is this not comparable to GW's 40%+ unreported salary?

I wasn't comparing, just pointing it out.

User avatar
cinephile
Posts: 3469
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:50 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby cinephile » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:42 am

gbpackerbacker wrote:I voted MN for the money and COA edge.

justhockey31
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:35 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby justhockey31 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:43 am

Flips88 wrote:I'm voting UMN because while GW is a great school, it is not worth sticker. Also UMN is the top school in its home market while GW is always in the shadow of GULC. Like BK said, the debt at UMN is manageable if you land a meager salary while at GW you will be debt pwned if you don't get big law or a PI job. I can't say with certainty, but I'd be willing to bet Minneapolis is a much much much less competitive market compared to DC, where you are competing against GULC and American and every T-14. Not many kids from Columbia or Berkeley are gunning for Minneapolis, ya know?

I (and many others ITT) think UMN is clearly the best choice. Good luck with your decision.


This general opinion seems to say that Minneapolis is actually quite competitive because of A) it is much much much smaller than other legal markets (NYC, Chicago, DC, etc) B) having ties to that area seem to be really important C) I have heard that t-14 students from the area will return for jobs

Does GW give people a chance to make it to NYC?

User avatar
NYC Law
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 3:33 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:47 am

justhockey31 wrote:
Flips88 wrote:I'm voting UMN because while GW is a great school, it is not worth sticker. Also UMN is the top school in its home market while GW is always in the shadow of GULC. Like BK said, the debt at UMN is manageable if you land a meager salary while at GW you will be debt pwned if you don't get big law or a PI job. I can't say with certainty, but I'd be willing to bet Minneapolis is a much much much less competitive market compared to DC, where you are competing against GULC and American and every T-14. Not many kids from Columbia or Berkeley are gunning for Minneapolis, ya know?

I (and many others ITT) think UMN is clearly the best choice. Good luck with your decision.


This general opinion seems to say that Minneapolis is actually quite competitive because of A) it is much much much smaller than other legal markets (NYC, Chicago, DC, etc) B) having ties to that area seem to be really important C) I have heard that t-14 students from the area will return for jobs

Does GW give people a chance to make it to NYC?


I'm sure there are a fair number of T14 gunning for Minneapolis, it being one of the highest QOL cities and all. There's a thread on the Minnesota Legal Market with an associate, check it out.

But yes, you can get to NYC from GW. Hard to guage just how difficult it is since so many who go to GW intend to work in DC, but it looks like about 10-20% make their way there. It's about as difficult as getting to NY from BC/BU, etc.
Last edited by NYC Law on Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Flips88
Posts: 13670
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:42 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby Flips88 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:52 am

justhockey31 wrote:
Flips88 wrote:I'm voting UMN because while GW is a great school, it is not worth sticker. Also UMN is the top school in its home market while GW is always in the shadow of GULC. Like BK said, the debt at UMN is manageable if you land a meager salary while at GW you will be debt pwned if you don't get big law or a PI job. I can't say with certainty, but I'd be willing to bet Minneapolis is a much much much less competitive market compared to DC, where you are competing against GULC and American and every T-14. Not many kids from Columbia or Berkeley are gunning for Minneapolis, ya know?

I (and many others ITT) think UMN is clearly the best choice. Good luck with your decision.


This general opinion seems to say that Minneapolis is actually quite competitive because of A) it is much much much smaller than other legal markets (NYC, Chicago, DC, etc) B) having ties to that area seem to be really important C) I have heard that t-14 students from the area will return for jobs

Does GW give people a chance to make it to NYC?

Well obviously Minneapolis is a secondary market, but I don't know if that necessarily means more competitive. Basically you're competing against the T-2 and T-3s in Minneapolis (St. Thomas, William Mitchell, Hamline) and then strong regional schools (Iowa, Wisconsin, maybe Illinois). I'm sure there are some kids from T-14s (most likely Chicago and Northwestern) gunning for Minneapolis as well as a handful at each T-14 that are from the area wanting to return home. But I still think that DC is such a saturated market that if, God forbid, you are below median at GW you are gonna have a hard time finding a job there.

I can't really speak to the need for ties in Minneapolis but I'd like to think 3 years at UMN would count as sufficient ties and demonstrate your desire to be in the city.

You should email UMN's career services and get a list of firms that do OCI.

Either way, I still think the biggest and most important difference is the COA and the clear advantage is UMN

ETA: and I think it's possible to save yourself thousands of dollars because Minneapolis has a lower CoL. You can find cheap housing by UMN. There's no such thing as cheap housing near GW that isn't a festering shit hole.

justhockey31
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:35 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby justhockey31 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:00 am

I emailed UMN awhile ago asking for employment statistics and they just gave me the viewbook that is available for all prospective students stating that "they have alumni working in all 50 states and all over the world" and blah blah blah more law school bs. I went on the NALP site and looked up their OCI firms and they had about 1/3 the number listed as GW and most of the firms were ones which had offices in Minneapolis as well as their offices in other cities.

I've seen the notion floating around TLS that people who really want Minneapolis should go to William Mitchell because it does so well in the area...would this mean that UMN is overrated or that they really do send kids all over the country? I mean, it is a Big10 school which means its a recognizable university and have large alumni bases.

jplayer
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:22 am

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby jplayer » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:40 am

justhockey31 wrote:I emailed UMN awhile ago asking for employment statistics and they just gave me the viewbook that is available for all prospective students stating that "they have alumni working in all 50 states and all over the world" and blah blah blah more law school bs. I went on the NALP site and looked up their OCI firms and they had about 1/3 the number listed as GW and most of the firms were ones which had offices in Minneapolis as well as their offices in other cities.

I've seen the notion floating around TLS that people who really want Minneapolis should go to William Mitchell because it does so well in the area...would this mean that UMN is overrated or that they really do send kids all over the country? I mean, it is a Big10 school which means its a recognizable university and have large alumni bases.


UMN is not really a huge firm kind of school from what I have learned. They don't have eye-popping claims to make because they don't have eye-popping claims to make! (Full Disclosure: Golden Gopher 1L from August. I promise I am not trying to lower the potential LSAT median in my section!)

You will end up with something nice if you do reasonably well, but you are probably not going to set the world on fire unless your name is Prosser or Mondale. I voted for Minnesota, but after reading your earlier post, I would say that if you are young, single and adventurous, go to GW. You only have one shot at law school. You are already taking the plunge, why not err on the side of ambition if that is where your heart is?

I would do the same if I were not a broken-down old man.

User avatar
Flips88
Posts: 13670
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:42 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby Flips88 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:45 am

jplayer wrote:You are already taking the plunge, why not err on the side of ambition if that is where your heart is?

I can give you 220,000 reasons.

Autoaccept
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:53 am

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby Autoaccept » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:54 am

For what it's worth, Minneapolis just usurped DC as the nation's fittest city, as ranked by some website somewhere.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-buzz/post/dc-is-second-fittest-city-in-the-us/2011/05/25/AGb0MEBH_blog.html

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18424
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:45 pm

Honestly this really is a slam dunk for Minnesota. Though I do think it is important to point out that there is a certain level of worry i/r/t firms questioning OP's desire to work in Minnesota (even with a Minnesota JD). But the important thing is that that risk is far less than the risk of taking GW at sticker. If OP can articulate a reason for wanting to work in Minnesota (and I don't think it should be that hard after going to school there and would be made easier with a 1L summer job that was in Minnesota), then I don't see any reason why GW should be on the table at this point.

JamMasterJ wrote:I wasn't comparing, just pointing it out.


Well it makes no sense to slam one school and not the other for something that both of them are fairly equal on. All the harping on Minnesota's level of unreported salaries only makes sense if the other option has a much higher percentage of reported salaries, which GW does not.

justhockey31 wrote:I emailed UMN awhile ago asking for employment statistics and they just gave me the viewbook that is available for all prospective students stating that "they have alumni working in all 50 states and all over the world" and blah blah blah more law school bs. I went on the NALP site and looked up their OCI firms and they had about 1/3 the number listed as GW and most of the firms were ones which had offices in Minneapolis as well as their offices in other cities.


Minnesota entering class size: 215
GW entering class size: 523 (489 full-time, 34 part-time)

I think that succinctly explains why GW has a lot more firms at OCI. Not to mention that GW, while still very much a regional school, is definitely more national than Minnesota. Also, all law schools spout that same bs so I really wouldn't hold something against Minnesota over the others when they all tow the same line.

justhockey31
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:35 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby justhockey31 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:40 pm

Oh I wasn't slamming Minnesota about their line about how their alumni are everywhere...I was just saying they were just feeding me the same bs that ALL law schools give students which just didn't answer my concerns at all. The thing about Minnesota is that though I did enjoy myself out there last week while visiting I am not sure where I want to live upon graduation (to be fair, I am not sure if I would want to stay in DC either) so I just don't want to be completely limited to either city if I choose their school. I mean, can Minnesota grads expand outwards? Same with GW?

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18424
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:49 pm

justhockey31 wrote:Oh I wasn't slamming Minnesota about their line about how their alumni are everywhere...I was just saying they were just feeding me the same bs that ALL law schools give students which just didn't answer my concerns at all. The thing about Minnesota is that though I did enjoy myself out there last week while visiting I am not sure where I want to live upon graduation (to be fair, I am not sure if I would want to stay in DC either) so I just don't want to be completely limited to either city if I choose their school. I mean, can Minnesota grads expand outwards? Same with GW?


Can they? Of course they can but at regional schools those sorts of options are hard to come by and not something you should be banking on. Also of note is that it will likely be easier to switch to a job in another area after you've been working for a bit.

For immediate postgrad employment I suggest you either make up your mind now about where you want to be or retake/reapply to get into schools that are actually national.

justhockey31
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:35 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby justhockey31 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:51 pm

Haha I am surprised it took this long for the retake/reapply answer came up. Honestly, as a splitter I feel like these are probably my best options and can not see them being significantly better next cycle.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18424
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Minnesota VS GW

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:57 pm

justhockey31 wrote:Haha I am surprised it took this long for the retake/reapply answer came up. Honestly, as a splitter I feel like these are probably my best options and can not see them being significantly better next cycle.


Just saw your numbers and clearly retaking won't do anything for you. I guess all you really can do if you want a better option would be to get 1-2 years of work experience then ED to NU and pay sticker there.

If you don't do that I think you have to accept that your low GPA has pidgeonholed you out of national schools as well as regional schools that don't like splitters.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BrainsyK, MSNbot Media, packerboy31489, Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest