Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another Forum

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kwais

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by kwais » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:19 pm

firemed wrote:
kfischm1 wrote:So I was accepted by the University of Arizona and granted a one year deferral. (I decided to go teach English in Spain for a year). But the other day I received an email from UC Davis saying they accepted me off of their waitlist for this year. I'm considering giving up teaching in Spain to go to Davis. But can I go to Davis this year, or is it considered unethical? Will I have problems when I apply for the bar?
This was the language in my deferral agreement, if it helps:
In consideration of the foregoing, I agree to attend the College of Law in the fall of the Enrollment Year (defined below). I acknowledge and agree that I have withdrawn all applications to other law schools, do not currently hold deferred status at another law school, and will not make new applications to other law schools for the Enrollment Year. I understand and acknowledge that any current College of Law scholarship awards will not be automatically extended for the Enrollment Year, but will be reevaluated with other Enrollment Year applicants.
I moved your bold to indicate the section that makes me wonder about your maturity and ethics.

Oh, and kwais: you aren't be the first to call me a douche, and you won't be the last. The internet makes tone and such hard to determine, so I had no intent to be a douche. But I don't really care if I came off as one.
whatever dude, they asked about the apparent ethical violation. I think that's more mature than using someone else's issue as a way to sound the douche horn.

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northwood

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by northwood » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:26 pm

OP: you cannot go to Davis. You need to contact Davis and let them know that you decided to defer from another school for a year and teach outside the continental USA. You should follow your original plan and teach in spain- then go to Arizona next fall. By signing that agreement- you agreed to matriculate at AZ following your deferment. Your mistake was either not following the directions in the agreement- or agreeing to it when you werent fully ready to make the agreement ( and commitment). Sorry if the wordring and typing is bad- but you need to withdraw from davis and go there.

Let this be a reminder to other applicants. If you are absolutely not 110 percent dead set on attending hte school- do not sign an agreement that binds you to attend that school.

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by Emma1 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:59 pm

kwais wrote:
firemed wrote:Bad idea... time to man/woman up and go to U of Arizona.

Also, after reading this I have concerns about your maturity.

Also theoretically this could show up on C&F... and the kind of people who break contracts like that probably don't meet ethics standards.

I got in off a WL the other day... you know what I said? I said: Sorry, I thought I had withdrawn, this is my mistake. I'll be attending xyz institution for law school. Very, very sorry again, and have a great day.

Sure, I would've loved to go there... loved to have asked if they were offering a scholly... but I didn't. Already made a commitment... and my commitment isn't even as firm as the one you made.

edited: after consideration
I lol'd at your whole douchy post. You may be right on many of your points but holy crap you sound like a dbag
He sounds ethical to me!

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by 3ThrowAway99 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:15 pm

I think as things stand you can't accept at Davis, but I would call or email University of Arizona admissions and explain the situation to them. There may be some risk involved since you didn't withdraw your Davis app from the waitlist (and hence violated their stated terms), but I suspect that that most likely the worst that will happen is that they will say you are stuck with what you agreed to. But this is not legal advice, and you may want to talk with a lawyer. It does sound like you got yourself into a bit of a sticky situation.

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by sold123 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:38 pm

Lawquacious wrote:I think as things stand you can't accept at Davis, but I would call or email University of Arizona admissions and explain the situation to them. There may be some risk involved since you didn't withdraw your Davis app from the waitlist (and hence violated their stated terms), but I suspect that that most likely the worst that will happen is that they will say you are stuck with what you agreed to. But this is not legal advice, and you may want to talk with a lawyer. It does sound like you got yourself into a bit of a sticky situation.
Agreed with this guy ^^^.

Contact Arizona and explain your situation. Apologize, be sincere, and tell them that your heart is with UC-Davis (if it is). I think if you present it right, they will be swayed. Forget, the lawyer. I don't honestly believe that they really want someone who does not want to attend.

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glewz

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by glewz » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:43 pm

sold123 wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:I think as things stand you can't accept at Davis, but I would call or email University of Arizona admissions and explain the situation to them. There may be some risk involved since you didn't withdraw your Davis app from the waitlist (and hence violated their stated terms), but I suspect that that most likely the worst that will happen is that they will say you are stuck with what you agreed to. But this is not legal advice, and you may want to talk with a lawyer. It does sound like you got yourself into a bit of a sticky situation.
Agreed with this guy ^^^.

Contact Arizona and explain your situation. Apologize, be sincere, and tell them that your heart is with UC-Davis (if it is). I think if you present it right, they will be swayed. Forget, the lawyer. I don't honestly believe that they really want someone who does not want to attend.
TCR. If you're good at interviews in general, and if it's not too inconvenient, you might want to make a trip to visit Arizona's admissions & explain.

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by birdlaw117 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:47 pm

In general, the ABA's rules are in place to allow you to stay on Waitlists for other schools indefinitely. ED is definitely an exception to this, and it's possible that entering into a deferral agreement is as well. However, it isn't as if this is affecting Arizona's ability to fill out their class starting this fall. They already weren't planning on you being there, so you're changing the way they accept students in the future, not screwing up what they were already doing. Considering that, it doesn't seem to be unethical at all in my eyes. If you contact Arizona and ask them, they will probably say it's fine and let you walk away without any issues. In fact, I would be very surprised if that wasn't the case.

Hope it works out for you, you're doing the right thing by being concerned and wanting to do the ethical thing. Best of luck to you!

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by Emma1 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:48 pm

You can't stay on a waitlist if you agree to withdraw as a condition to the deferral. You need to withdraw from Davis and then you can ask to withdraw from Arizona( assuming you dont want to be there). If you are lucky they will allow you to withdraw and you can reapply to schools next year but I bet they won't if they know that you didnt withdraw from Davis as you were required to do. It is very unethical not to have withdrawn initially. If Davis gets wind of this they will dismiss you and your application. OP needs to take this very seriously.

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by sunynp » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:17 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:In general, the ABA's rules are in place to allow you to stay on Waitlists for other schools indefinitely. ED is definitely an exception to this, and it's possible that entering into a deferral agreement is as well. However, it isn't as if this is affecting Arizona's ability to fill out their class starting this fall. They already weren't planning on you being there, so you're changing the way they accept students in the future, not screwing up what they were already doing. Considering that, it doesn't seem to be unethical at all in my eyes. If you contact Arizona and ask them, they will probably say it's fine and let you walk away without any issues. In fact, I would be very surprised if that wasn't the case.

Hope it works out for you, you're doing the right thing by being concerned and wanting to do the ethical thing. Best of luck to you!
If Arizona didn't care they would not have given binding deferral. Quite probably Arizona does not grant many deferrals as it is not in their interest to do so. I don't know the process, but possibly OP got a binding deferral in lieu of giving a seat deposit for this year? I also don't know how this plays into Arizona's stats - does the deferred acceptance numbers (for ranking purposes) go into the year they are accepted or the year they attend?

The ABA allows you to stay on a wait list after you have signed a binding contract saying that you have withdrawn? I disagree. Failing to withdraw from Davis wouldn't matter if OP wanted to go to Arizona and simply made an error in not withdrawing Davis. If that is the case then OP should be fine by telling Arizona of the error and decline Davis.

But OP sounds like she wants to go to Davis. These facts can just as easily be interpreted as OP signed the deferral agreement. Meanwhile, she wanted to see what happened at Davis so she didn't withdraw.

I'm not saying she did that, but people may interpret these facts as if she gamed the system to hold onto an acceptance while riding out a waitlist. Davis will care that she didn't withdraw after she signed the deferral agreement.

That said, I do hope everything works out for OP.

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birdlaw117

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by birdlaw117 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:56 pm

sunynp wrote: The ABA allows you to stay on a wait list after you have signed a binding contract saying that you have withdrawn? I disagree. Failing to withdraw from Davis wouldn't matter if OP wanted to go to Arizona and simply made an error in not withdrawing Davis. If that is the case then OP should be fine by telling Arizona of the error and decline Davis.
I never said the ABA allows you to stay on a waitlist if you are contractually obligated to withdraw. What I said was that in general, ABA rules want to give incoming law students as much info as they can in order to make the best decision. Generally speaking, this does not mean forcing students to withdraw applications. There are exceptions, ED being the big one. What I said was I don't know if agreeing to defer for a year is one of those. I also said that I don't see a reason why the school would need to enforce this. There really isn't anything to gain for them except for to obligate a student to come and be disgruntled.

Also, gaming the system? What system did OP possibly game? OP was already accepted. Agreeing to defer gave OP no advantages at U of Arizona.

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by Emma1 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:26 pm

You are gaming the system when you request a law school to engage in a binding contract to defer you for a year for which you in exchange contractually agree to withdraw from other schools waitlists and then don't do so in violation of the contract and further want to accept a place off the waitlist at that school. That is gaming the system and isnt fair to either law school or other law students that might like a place off that waitlist. This is a contract so don't enter into it if you have doubts. One of the reasons they want you to withdraw from other waitlists is to prevent this type of situation.

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by firemed » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:57 pm

Emma1 wrote:You are gaming the system when you request a law school to engage in a binding contract to defer you for a year for which you in exchange contractually agree to withdraw from other schools waitlists and then don't do so in violation of the contract and further want to accept a place off the waitlist at that school. That is gaming the system and isnt fair to either law school or other law students that might like a place off that waitlist. This is a contract so don't enter into it if you have doubts. One of the reasons they want you to withdraw from other waitlists is to prevent this type of situation.
Bingo.

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birdlaw117

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by birdlaw117 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:17 am

Emma1 wrote:You are gaming the system when you request a law school to engage in a binding contract to defer you for a year for which you in exchange contractually agree to withdraw from other schools waitlists and then don't do so in violation of the contract and further want to accept a place off the waitlist at that school. That is gaming the system and isnt fair to either law school or other law students that might like a place off that waitlist. This is a contract so don't enter into it if you have doubts. One of the reasons they want you to withdraw from other waitlists is to prevent this type of situation.
Explain one way the University of Arizona is hurt by this? They have one more seat to fill this coming year? That doesn't seem to be very burdensome. Name another.

Also, gaming the system means you are using the system to gain an advantage over others. What advantage was gained? The ability to decide what school to attend? The same ability that all other applicants have?

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by Aqualibrium » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:27 am

firemed wrote:
Emma1 wrote:
daesonesb wrote:What can they do to you if you just ignore your deferral agreement? It's not like they can find out what school you've enrolled in (or can they?) If they did, what would they do then? Seems like the most they could do would be send UC Davis a letter.
Are you kidding?
I look forward to hearing that argument in Contracts durning daesonesb's 1L year. That'll go over well with the prof, I bet.

There are definitely situations where breaching a K and taking the consequences that come with it is better for an individual/company than following the terms of the K. His K's professor has no doubt encountered or at least heard of situations where this is the case....
Last edited by Aqualibrium on Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by Dany » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:29 am

That is not what "gaming the system" means.

OP - Please, please, please tell us what Arizona says when you call them and tell them you want to attend Davis - a school you led them to believe you had withdrawn from - this year.

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birdlaw117

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by birdlaw117 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:30 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
firemed wrote:
Emma1 wrote:
daesonesb wrote:What can they do to you if you just ignore your deferral agreement? It's not like they can find out what school you've enrolled in (or can they?) If they did, what would they do then? Seems like the most they could do would be send UC Davis a letter.
Are you kidding?
I look forward to hearing that argument in Contracts durning daesonesb's 1L year. That'll go over well with the prof, I bet.

There are definitely situations where breaching a K and taking the consequences that come with it is better than following the terms of the K. His K's professor has no doubt encountered or at least heard of situation where this is the case....
Yep. If the benefit of breaching the contract outweighs the cost of breaching it, easy decision. The only problem in this case is knowing what the cost is.

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by Dany » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:35 am

I just think it's funny daeson thinks Arizona won't find out what's going on. Schools get lists of their admits who have paid deposits at multiple schools from LSAC, and further, even if they didn't, deans talk to each other. See: the story of Dean Z owning the guy who lied to her about a scholarship amount from another school.

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firemed

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by firemed » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:49 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
firemed wrote:
Emma1 wrote:
daesonesb wrote:What can they do to you if you just ignore your deferral agreement? It's not like they can find out what school you've enrolled in (or can they?) If they did, what would they do then? Seems like the most they could do would be send UC Davis a letter.
Are you kidding?
I look forward to hearing that argument in Contracts durning daesonesb's 1L year. That'll go over well with the prof, I bet.

There are definitely situations where breaching a K and taking the consequences that come with it is better for an individual/company than following the terms of the K. His K's professor has no doubt encountered or at least heard of situations where this is the case....
Except that the consequences of this, as previously mentioned, could include (but are not limited to) an inability to get into ANY law school, the possibility of failing C&F, the possibility of having their degree revoked, or the possibility of being disbarred. While any but the first two seem unlikely to me... it is possible. Not a risk I would take, personally.

So daesons argument basically said that breeching this contract could result in- at worst- an angry letter. And I looked forward to hearing that kind of minimization of consequences spouted to a professor during class.

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birdlaw117

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by birdlaw117 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:00 am

firemed wrote: Except that the consequences of this, as previously mentioned, could include (but are not limited to) an inability to get into ANY law school, the possibility of failing C&F, the possibility of having their degree revoked, or the possibility of being disbarred. While any but the first two seem unlikely to me... it is possible. Not a risk I would take, personally.

So daesons argument basically said that breeching this contract could result in- at worst- an angry letter. And I looked forward to hearing that kind of minimization of consequences spouted to a professor during class.
You really think that OP wouldn't be able to get into ANY law school and would fail C&F? People with felonies can pass C&F (not always, but they can), and you think that breaching a contract that OP clearly did not fully understand (or didn't breach, depending on the wording of the K) will result in failure to pass C&F? Gimme a break dude...

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by cool of law » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:07 am

OP: I was also planning on (and still sort of am) attending Arizona and just got accepted off the WL at UC Davis. Not to change the subject, but maybe to take your mind off of it, why do you prefer Davis to Arizona besides the ranking?

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by sunynp » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:41 am

In consideration of the foregoing, I agree to attend the College of Law in the fall of the Enrollment Year (defined below). I acknowledge and agree that I have withdrawn all applications to other law schools, do not currently hold deferred status at another law school, and will not make new applications to other law schools for the Enrollment Year. I understand and acknowledge that any current College of Law scholarship awards will not be automatically extended for the Enrollment Year, but will be reevaluated with other Enrollment Year applicants.
Read this provision from the agreement and tell me OP didn't breech it? I think Arizona can treat this agreement as binding as an Early Decision application. The language sounds almost identical to an Early Decision agreement.

What Arizona will actually do is up to them. But I stand by my opinion that Davis will not want to accept OP and that it is possible OP will have a problem with Arizona. I wanted OP to consider the worst case scenario here.

I'm sure this agreement must have termination provisions to allow OP to change her mind, no one can force her to go to law school, but OP hasn't posted those.

What Arizona has to lose has nothing to do with the work involved with the next year's class. Arizona admitted OP, OP asked for a deferral for one year so she can go teach overseas, Arizona said ok but you have to promise you will come to our school when you get back. Why didn't OP just withdraw from Arizona and then reapply when she got back? Arizona did OP a favor by granting deferral, I don't think they grant very many. Arizona doesn't want to set a precedent of granting withdrawals and then having the deferred people change their mind and go to another school instead.

I hope OP gets what she wants and it all works out for her.

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by kfischm1 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:24 am

Thanks again for the replies and insight.

I have decided to decline Davis' offer of admission. It seems that no one has a clear response to this situation/what could happen, including a friend of mine who is a lawyer. I don't want to have problems later on in my law career or break the contract with Arizona to attend. I asked this question because I wanted to see if it was even possible for me to go to Davis after signing the agreement with Arizona before beating myself up about missing an opportunity. I originally figured I would just lose the seat deposit if I decided to attend another school, just as if I had agreed to attend this year and changed my mind to attend another later on. But it seems that the deferral agreement situation is a lot different.

I understand people's concerns with on whether not withdrawing from waitlists is ethical. The way I see it, as a few other posters have, is that I am not hurting Arizona at all. I signed an agreement to attend next year, which I still am going to do. They have not been affected in their admissions process or selection. Yes, by remaining on Davis' waitlist, perhaps it was an inconvenience to them to review my file on the waitlist and then offer me admission only to have me decline, but is that really any different than if I had already committed to a law school this year, considered Davis' admission offer, and still decided to attend the original school?

Answer to cool of law's question: The reasons why I was considering Davis, besides the difference in rankings: 1) Because California residency is easier to establish than Arizona 2) Davis was going to give me a lot more in financial aid. 3) I interned at a non-profit law firm and my co-worker had attended Davis several years ago and loved her experience there. 4) The law school environment seems close-knit.

Answer to several people's question about why I didn't withdraw all apps and reapply later: I did not withdraw my app from Arizona and just reapply the following year after I decided to teach in Spain because I was worried I wouldn't be accepted again with my numbers despite a good resume and personal statement (GPA 4.0+ and LSAT 159 on second attempt with 1st attempt 158) Considering I plan to practice as an immigration attorney in the Southwest, I thought it was a safer idea to sign a deferral agreement rather than trying to gain admission again, plus the hassle of trying to apply while I am overseas. The University of Arizona and Arizona State were the best schools I got into in the Southwest (and are the best ones in the region outside of the southern California schools like UCLA and USC -- way out of my league). And with regards to Davis, I never expected to be put on the waitlist even, let alone be accepted off of it, given the school's rankings and numbers.

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by sunynp » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:26 am

kfischm1 wrote:Thanks again for the replies and insight.

I have decided to decline Davis' offer of admission. It seems that no one has a clear response to this situation/what could happen, including a friend of mine who is a lawyer. I don't want to have problems later on in my law career or break the contract with Arizona to attend. I asked this question because I wanted to see if it was even possible for me to go to Davis after signing the agreement with Arizona before beating myself up about missing an opportunity. I originally figured I would just lose the seat deposit if I decided to attend another school, just as if I had agreed to attend this year and changed my mind to attend another later on. But it seems that the deferral agreement situation is a lot different.

I understand people's concerns with on whether not withdrawing from waitlists is ethical. The way I see it, as a few other posters have, is that I am not hurting Arizona at all. I signed an agreement to attend next year, which I still am going to do. They have not been affected in their admissions process or selection. Yes, by remaining on Davis' waitlist, perhaps it was an inconvenience to them to review my file on the waitlist and then offer me admission only to have me decline, but is that really any different than if I had already committed to a law school this year, considered Davis' admission offer, and still decided to attend the original school?

Answer to cool of law's question: The reasons why I was considering Davis, besides the difference in rankings: 1) Because California residency is easier to establish than Arizona 2) Davis was going to give me a lot more in financial aid. 3) I interned at a non-profit law firm and my co-worker had attended Davis several years ago and loved her experience there. 4) The law school environment seems close-knit.

Answer to several people's question about why I didn't withdraw all apps and reapply later: I did not withdraw my app from Arizona and just reapply the following year after I decided to teach in Spain because I was worried I wouldn't be accepted again with my numbers despite a good resume and personal statement (GPA 4.0+ and LSAT 159 on second attempt with 1st attempt 158) Considering I plan to practice as an immigration attorney in the Southwest, I thought it was a safer idea to sign a deferral agreement rather than trying to gain admission again, plus the hassle of trying to apply while I am overseas. The University of Arizona and Arizona State were the best schools I got into in the Southwest (and are the best ones in the region outside of the southern California schools like UCLA and USC -- way out of my league). And with regards to Davis, I never expected to be put on the waitlist even, let alone be accepted off of it, given the school's rankings and numbers.
Yes, you are absolutely right, signing the binding deferral made all the difference in your situation. I'm assuming Arizona doesn't have a problem with your not withdrawing from the Davis waitlist. I'm glad it all worked out for you.

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by kfischm1 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:56 am

My friend, who is a lawyer but was speaking through personal opinion and not giving legal advice, brought up this point that I found interesting:

1. You agreed to attend Arizona in the fall of the Enrollment Year ("Enrollment Year" is defined as 2012) and

2. You agreed to withdraw all other applications when you accepted the deferral to 2012. You can argue that the phrase "for the Enrollment Year" at the end of the sentence applies to 2012 applications not 2011 so you were not out of compliance keeping the Davis application active for the enrollment year 2011.

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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Post by cool of law » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:02 pm

OP: Are you still planning on teaching in Spain? If so, I definitely think you are making the right decision. Not only will you not have to be anxious of C&F for the next 3 years, but (assuming you just graduated) you will gain so much experience from taking some time off of school to work. GL

I am glad I am not the only one turning down Davis for U of A...although my excuse isn't as good as yours :D

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