Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

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kfischm1
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Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby kfischm1 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:26 pm

I was accepted by the University of Arizona and granted a one year deferral. (I decided to go teach English in Spain for a year). But the other day I received an email from UC Davis saying they accepted me off of their waitlist for this year. Hypothetically, if I wanted to, could I go to Davis this year, or would it be considered unethical? Would I have problems when I applied for the bar?

This was the language in my deferral agreement, if it helps:
In consideration of the foregoing, I agree to attend the College of Law in the fall of the Enrollment Year (defined below). I acknowledge and agree that I have withdrawn all applications to other law schools, do not currently hold deferred status at another law school, and will not make new applications to other law schools for the Enrollment Year. I understand and acknowledge that any current College of Law scholarship awards will not be automatically extended for the Enrollment Year, but will be reevaluated with other Enrollment Year applicants.
Last edited by kfischm1 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

splitmuch
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby splitmuch » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:32 pm

kfischm1 wrote:[/b]
This was the language in my deferral agreement, if it helps:
In consideration of the foregoing, I agree to attend the College of Law in the fall of the Enrollment Year (defined below). I acknowledge and agree that I have withdrawn all applications to other law schools, do not currently hold deferred status at another law school, and will not make new applications to other law schools for the Enrollment Year. I understand and acknowledge that any current College of Law scholarship awards will not be automatically extended for the Enrollment Year, but will be reevaluated with other Enrollment Year applicants.


You obviously didn't do the bolded.

Emma1
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby Emma1 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:54 pm

You can't go to Davis this year! Why didn't you withdraw earlier as promised? I believe you are bound to your deferred school for two years (this year and next). BTW, bad deal that they didnt agree to defer your scholarship(if you received one).
Last edited by Emma1 on Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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daesonesb
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby daesonesb » Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:58 pm

What can they do to you if you just ignore your deferral agreement? It's not like they can find out what school you've enrolled in (or can they?) If they did, what would they do then? Seems like the most they could do would be send UC Davis a letter.

Does anyone have concrete experience with this, rather than mere 0L anxiety?

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sunynp
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby sunynp » Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:59 pm

You may have royally screwed yourself. There was a thread about a guy who applied early decision and was accepted, but didn't withdraw his apps after saying he had. He got dumped by his original acceptance and blacklisted so he didn't get in anywhere.
You may be looking at a similar fate.
What do you think the University of Arizona is going to do when they find out about this? I sincerely hope for your sake that it isn't too bad - but I wouldn't count on it. I also think this will definitely come up in C&F.

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sunynp
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby sunynp » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:00 pm

daesonesb wrote:What can they do to you if you just ignore your deferral agreement? It's not like they can find out what school you've enrolled in (or can they?) If they did, what would they do then? Seems like the most they could do would be send UC Davis a letter.

Does anyone have concrete experience with this, rather than mere 0L anxiety?

They can blacklist you - see my post above. Schools do have information about where students are accepted. I will see if I can find the thread about the early decision guy.

edit: the info about that guy is from LSN daninreallife. http://lawschoolnumbers.com/daninreallife

Some people seem to think he is fake. I don't want to give you advice here because I don't know what you should do now. But you definitely can not go to Davis, and Davis won't want you if they know you signed a binding deferral with Arizona. Arizona probably won't want you if they know you didn't withdraw even though you signed a contract stating that you had withdrawn.
Last edited by sunynp on Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Emma1
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby Emma1 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:02 pm

[quote="daesonesb"]What can they do to you if you just ignore your deferral agreement? It's not like they can find out what school you've enrolled in (or can they?) If they did, what would they do then? Seems like the most they could do would be send UC Davis a letter.

Are you kidding?

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daesonesb
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby daesonesb » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:06 pm

I am not kidding. Obviously there are courses of action a school could take (like telling other schools, the lsac, or state bar associations). The question is, will they? If OP simply asked Arizona that their seat be given to another student, why would Arizona have any incentive to keep track of whether OP went to another school?

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sunynp
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby sunynp » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:12 pm

daesonesb wrote:I am not kidding. Obviously there are courses of action a school could take (like telling other schools, the lsac, or state bar associations). The question is, will they? If OP simply asked Arizona that their seat be given to another student, why would Arizona have any incentive to keep track of whether OP went to another school?


Arizona doesn't want people to defer at their school while still trying to get in to other schools. Other schools don't want to support students doing that either.

firemed
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby firemed » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:14 pm

Bad idea... time to man/woman up and go to U of Arizona.

Also, after reading this I have concerns about your maturity.

Also theoretically this could show up on C&F... and the kind of people who break contracts like that probably don't meet ethics standards.

I got in off a WL the other day... you know what I said? I said: Sorry, I thought I had withdrawn, this is my mistake. I'll be attending xyz institution for law school. Very, very sorry again, and have a great day.

Sure, I would've loved to go there... loved to have asked if they were offering a scholly... but I didn't. Already made a commitment... and my commitment isn't even as firm as the one you made.

edited: after consideration
Last edited by firemed on Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

firemed
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby firemed » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:18 pm

sunynp wrote:Arizona doesn't want people to defer at their school while still trying to get in to other schools. Other schools don't want to support students doing that either.



Exactly this. No school wants to support students taking any other school for a ride. Supporting that and within a few years a large number of those seeking a deferment are actually gaming the system like it looks the OP was... and that messes stuff up. Schools either have to stop granting deferments, which sucks for those getting them for good reasons, or adjust their acceptance numbers to take into account people gaming the system (even more than they do now). Bad mojo all around.

firemed
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby firemed » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:20 pm

Emma1 wrote:
daesonesb wrote:What can they do to you if you just ignore your deferral agreement? It's not like they can find out what school you've enrolled in (or can they?) If they did, what would they do then? Seems like the most they could do would be send UC Davis a letter.


Are you kidding?


I look forward to hearing that argument in Contracts durning daesonesb's 1L year. That'll go over well with the prof, I bet.
Last edited by firemed on Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby rinkrat19 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:21 pm

daesonesb wrote:I am not kidding. Obviously there are courses of action a school could take (like telling other schools, the lsac, or state bar associations). The question is, will they? If OP simply asked Arizona that their seat be given to another student, why would Arizona have any incentive to keep track of whether OP went to another school?

You don't think that someone at Arizona might be curious why a student who apparently wanted to go to their law school enough to request a deferral suddenly turns them down?

This is a very stupid thing to risk. It HAS screwed people over before. If it gets found out at C&F time, it could very well screw you over, to the tune of RUINING YOUR CAREER. The deferral agreement is a binding contract.

You might (probably would?) be ok if you immediately withdraw from Davis. Then call Arizona and apologize for mistakenly forgetting to withdraw from Davis' waitlist, assuring them you had no intention of breaking the deferral agreement they very generously granted you, and telling them you did, of course, immediately withdraw from Davis as soon as you'd realized your mistake.

lawgod
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby lawgod » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:22 pm

I wouldn't like to be in your position. But it seems like you already breached your deal when you didn't withdraw from your other schools.

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citykitty
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby citykitty » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:23 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
daesonesb wrote:I am not kidding. Obviously there are courses of action a school could take (like telling other schools, the lsac, or state bar associations). The question is, will they? If OP simply asked Arizona that their seat be given to another student, why would Arizona have any incentive to keep track of whether OP went to another school?

You don't think that someone at Arizona might be curious why a student who apparently wanted to go to their law school enough to request a deferral suddenly turns them down?

This is a very stupid thing to risk. It HAS screwed people over before. If it gets found out at C&F time, it could very well screw you over, to the tune of RUINING YOUR CAREER. The deferral agreement is a binding contract.

You might (probably would?) be ok if you immediately withdraw from Davis. Then call Arizona and apologize for mistakenly forgetting to withdraw from Davis' waitlist, assuring them you had no intention of breaking the deferral agreement they very generously granted you, and telling them you did, of course, immediately withdraw from Davis as soon as you'd realized your mistake.



I think the bolded is the only course of action at this point, although you've already behaved unethically.

lawgod
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby lawgod » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:27 pm

I know someone who was fired from his senior partner position and disbarred when they found out he did something like this 25 years previously.

firemed
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby firemed » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:31 pm

lawgod wrote:I know someone who was fired from his senior partner position and disbarred when they found out he did something like this 25 years previously.


I believe the granting institution can also pull your degree... rescind it basically... which means you won't even be eligible for the bar... and good luck getting in LS again after being disbarred and having your degree UN-awarded.

All the LSs out there (and UGs, grad schools, etc.) have a thing on the application which basically says "If you lie to us we can mess you up... mess you up so bad you will wish you were dead." Truth... check it out when you can. :mrgreen:

Even worse- I have heard of it happening to people.

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sunynp
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby sunynp » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:08 pm

Here's another question: is the OP's deferrral agreement even in force now (or was it ever?)? I hope that Arizona is understanding about a person who claims they forgot to withdraw from another school's waitlist. I think that OP should disclose to Arizona his/her "error" in not withdrawing from Davis. I hope Arizona is ok with it. I would not just decline Davis and assume Arizona or C&F will not find out about this issue.

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daesonesb
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby daesonesb » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:23 pm

lawgod wrote:I know someone who was fired from his senior partner position and disbarred when they found out he did something like this 25 years previously.


Sarcasm?

Obviously OP has a contract, but it doesn't completely bind his hands. There is no rule saying you can't withdraw from lawschool this close to the start. My friend withdrew from our school a month into first semester and got his tuition back. Most schools have withdrawal deadlines, and are not worried about you changing your mind before them.

Besides some random reference to LSN.com, no one is really giving you concrete proof that going to UC Davis will screw you over. I generally would take all the advice you get on here with a grain of salt, including mine.

The way I see it, there are a few options you have. 1 &2 are sensible, 3 is pretty risky.

1) Go to Arizona - be forthcoming that you fucked up. Say you didn't know.

2) Withdraw at Arizona. Wait till next cycle and apply ED to schools you ACTUALLY wanna go to.

3) Withdraw at Arizona, throw the dice and simply go to UC Davis. It is possible you could get burned by this, but don't listen to anyone that tells you it's a sure thing. It really depends on what your tolerance for risk is.

I'm not saying any of this in the capacity of being a lawyer. If you want real legal advice about your position, you should talk to an actual lawyer, and pay them money. All I'm saying is listening to idiots on here who say your ONLY option is to go to Arizona is not a good idea either. At the very least, if you dont want to go to arizona, you don't have to.
Last edited by daesonesb on Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

lawgod
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby lawgod » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:25 pm

daesonesb wrote:
lawgod wrote:I know someone who was fired from his senior partner position and disbarred when they found out he did something like this 25 years previously.


Sarcasm?



No, just plain lying.

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kwais
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby kwais » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:30 pm

firemed wrote:Bad idea... time to man/woman up and go to U of Arizona.

Also, after reading this I have concerns about your maturity.

Also theoretically this could show up on C&F... and the kind of people who break contracts like that probably don't meet ethics standards.

I got in off a WL the other day... you know what I said? I said: Sorry, I thought I had withdrawn, this is my mistake. I'll be attending xyz institution for law school. Very, very sorry again, and have a great day.

Sure, I would've loved to go there... loved to have asked if they were offering a scholly... but I didn't. Already made a commitment... and my commitment isn't even as firm as the one you made.

edited: after consideration


I lol'd at your whole douchy post. You may be right on many of your points but holy crap you sound like a dbag

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sunynp
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby sunynp » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:49 pm

daesonesb wrote:
lawgod wrote:I know someone who was fired from his senior partner position and disbarred when they found out he did something like this 25 years previously.


Sarcasm?

Obviously OP has a contract, but it doesn't completely bind his hands. There is no rule saying you can't withdraw from lawschool this close to the start. My friend withdrew from our school a month into first semester and got his tuition back. Most schools have withdrawal deadlines, and are not worried about you changing your mind before them.

Besides some random reference to LSN.com, no one is really giving you concrete proof that going to UC Davis will screw you over. I generally would take all the advice you get on here with a grain of salt, including mine.

The way I see it, there are a few options you have. 1 &2 are sensible, 3 is pretty risky.

1) Go to Arizona - be forthcoming that you fucked up. Say you didn't know.

2) Withdraw at Arizona. Wait till next cycle and apply ED to schools you ACTUALLY wanna go to.

3) Withdraw at Arizona, throw the dice and simply go to UC Davis. It is possible you could get burned by this, but don't listen to anyone that tells you it's a sure thing. It really depends on what your tolerance for risk is.

I'm not saying any of this in the capacity of being a lawyer. If you want real legal advice about your position, you should talk to an actual lawyer, and pay them money. All I'm saying is listening to idiots on here who say your ONLY option is to go to Arizona is not a good idea either. At the very least, if you dont want to go to arizona, you don't have to.

I wouldn't assume that OP has a binding contract until Arizona confirms that it is cool with OP not withdrawing from Davis.

Did OP post the actual deferral agreement provisions regarding termination? I didn't see those. I don't think I said the only option was to go to Arizona, but even if what I said was taken to mean that, whatever OP does he/she has to deal with Arizona sooner rather than later. Of course OP can always give up the deferred acceptance, but that doesn't mean OP can go to another school that he/she was accepted to while under a binding agreement requiring OP to withdraw all other application. I think that both schools will care because OP lied on the contract. OP needs to address that situation. Maybe I'm wrong and people do this all the time, but I haven't heard of it.

I'm assuming Davis didn't have any conditions for OP to remain on the waitlist - is there any provision that says you have to withdraw from the Davis waitlist if you accept a binding deferral at another school? I'm also assuming OP didn't send a LOCI to Davis after accepting Arizona.

edit: this is on the Davis application page on their website, I think the waitlist counts as part of the admission process:
Any fraudulent practices relating to the admission process will be considered grounds for disqualification by the Admissions Committee.

Applicants who have been disqualified at another law school will not be admitted to UC Davis School of Law.
from http://www.law.ucdavis.edu/prospective/ ... ocess.html

I hope everything works out for OP. I am simply trying to point out the worst case, so OP can deal with it. I think OP realizes that there is a problem here or they wouldn't have started this thread in the first place.

kfischm1
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby kfischm1 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:41 pm

First off I'd like to thank everyone for their responses.

Second, I did not sign the agreement with Arizona with the intention of backing out later. I had every intention of going (and still do). I did not call every school and withdraw my applications after signing the deferral as it became clear to those schools that had accepted me that I wasn't attending those schools after not sending in their seat deposits. I'm sure many other law school students have done the same thing. While I remained on the waitlist at Davis, I thought I had zero chance at getting in, so I didn't bother withdrawing my application. So it was a shock to me that I was later sent an acceptance letter, and I just wanted to know if it was even possible for me to go before I kick myself about it.

So I'm sorry for those that think I behaved immaturely. I was not trying to trick anyone or hold out until a better offer came along. It's a little offensive that some people on here think I am unethical and immature.

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sunynp
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby sunynp » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:50 pm

OP: why did you sign an agreement saying you had withdrawn from all the schools you applied to when you hadn't? Now I see that it was a simple mistake because you thought it would be a waste of time?? I thought you wanted to go to Davis instead all along. Thanks for posting the clarification, I think(hope) Arizona will understand this situation. If you really want to go to Davis instead, would you consider cancelling your deferred acceptance and then applying to Davis for the next year? That might be a risky move as you were waitlisted this year.

In any event, you need to let Arizona know about this waitlist debacle with Davis.
Last edited by sunynp on Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

firemed
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Re: Granted a deferral but now accepted off waitlist at another

Postby firemed » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:58 pm

kfischm1 wrote:So I was accepted by the University of Arizona and granted a one year deferral. (I decided to go teach English in Spain for a year). But the other day I received an email from UC Davis saying they accepted me off of their waitlist for this year. I'm considering giving up teaching in Spain to go to Davis. But can I go to Davis this year, or is it considered unethical? Will I have problems when I apply for the bar?
This was the language in my deferral agreement, if it helps:
In consideration of the foregoing, I agree to attend the College of Law in the fall of the Enrollment Year (defined below). I acknowledge and agree that I have withdrawn all applications to other law schools, do not currently hold deferred status at another law school, and will not make new applications to other law schools for the Enrollment Year. I understand and acknowledge that any current College of Law scholarship awards will not be automatically extended for the Enrollment Year, but will be reevaluated with other Enrollment Year applicants.


I moved your bold to indicate the section that makes me wonder about your maturity and ethics.

Oh, and kwais: you aren't be the first to call me a douche, and you won't be the last. The internet makes tone and such hard to determine, so I had no intent to be a douche. But I don't really care if I came off as one.




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