Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

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Shammis
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby Shammis » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:41 pm

Anecdotal but I'll throw this out there...
A good friend of mine graduated from Loyola LS a year ago...
Got a job in relative shit law for 3 months, but then nabbed a midlaw job and is now making just over 100k in OC. He has good hours (not biglaw hours) and is making good money. He graduated around top 25%.

It all depends on class rank, connections, and luck. But if you take a look at lawschooltransparency LLS and Pepperdine dont seem too bad as far as employment is concerned, especially if you are within the top 25%. At least I hope not since im either heading to Pepp or LLS in 2 months...

That being said, If you are at a school outside of LLS and Pepp (USD for the SD market) I would wager your employment prospects go down drastically - especially in SF since the market seems so much tighter up there. Moral of the story? Be top 1% and work your ass off.

Matix
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby Matix » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:43 am

Thanks for the information. I really appreciate it.

bigtttymer
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby bigtttymer » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:16 am

I am class of 2011 coming out of a T2 (not CA). In my class, we had a total of 7 students out of 325+ get a paying firm SA for 2L summer. NONE of those were biglaw (vault 100 firms), but rather midlaw paying 90-100k/year starting. Heck, the EIC of our LR is graduating unemployed. ITE if you go to a T2 you need to be top 1-2% to have a shot at having a job lined up when you graduate.

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crossarmant
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby crossarmant » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:01 am

NYC Law wrote:
bigkahuna2020 wrote:Considering the average salary of a employed college graduate 9 months out of law school is now 27k and the unemployment rates I have seen range from 25-45%, I think you are on crack. I know engineering grads from decent schools who are desperate to get jobs paying 40k, and outside of the narrow band of (usually horribly incompetent and generally stupid) business majors who make it in finance, and a few smatterings of engineers, researchers and teachers, the best job I hear of people getting is assistant manager at a restaurant they used to work at in high school.

The legal market is bad, but as a 2008 graduate, I don't think you realize how terrible the job market is in general.


I agree with all of this, sometimes TLS underestimates just how bad shit is in every other field as well (except healthcare, but that bubble is going to burst sooner or later).

But dude, you can post everything in one post


+1

People here forget just how awful it is for everyone, I've a friend who graduated #1 in their class from the #1 Architecture program in the U.S. and is working at Starbucks a year and a half out of school still. One of my friends just got a job in her field after working 2 years at J.Crew, and it's still not enough to cover the CoL in DC. I've another friend who has a Masters in Electrical Engineering from a top engineering school and is unemployed. One of my friends just graduated from a top 5 Graphic Design program and only has a 9 week internship and no job prospects. Another friend with a Masters in Biomedical Engineering from UVA and hasn't been able to find work. I, myself, graduated in 2009 and applied to well over 400 different jobs in a slew of different fields before I eve graduated and got two interviews and no job offers. Did legal contracting while applying for work for 2 years (just an absurd number of jobs, with firms, waiting tables, hotels, you name it) and have only gotten a few interviews and only one job offer doing financial aid at a big university.

ITE it's fucking terrible for everyone. Personally, I'd rather take the gamble of doing law school and run a 25-50% chance of making solid money (not stupid money) in a field that I enjoy than wallow in the working poor class with a seemingly worthless B.S. and $30k in undergrad debt.

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Oglethorpe
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby Oglethorpe » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:34 am

crossarmant wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
bigkahuna2020 wrote:Considering the average salary of a employed college graduate 9 months out of law school is now 27k and the unemployment rates I have seen range from 25-45%, I think you are on crack. I know engineering grads from decent schools who are desperate to get jobs paying 40k, and outside of the narrow band of (usually horribly incompetent and generally stupid) business majors who make it in finance, and a few smatterings of engineers, researchers and teachers, the best job I hear of people getting is assistant manager at a restaurant they used to work at in high school.

The legal market is bad, but as a 2008 graduate, I don't think you realize how terrible the job market is in general.


I agree with all of this, sometimes TLS underestimates just how bad shit is in every other field as well (except healthcare, but that bubble is going to burst sooner or later).

But dude, you can post everything in one post


+1

People here forget just how awful it is for everyone, I've a friend who graduated #1 in their class from the #1 Architecture program in the U.S. and is working at Starbucks a year and a half out of school still. One of my friends just got a job in her field after working 2 years at J.Crew, and it's still not enough to cover the CoL in DC. I've another friend who has a Masters in Electrical Engineering from a top engineering school and is unemployed. One of my friends just graduated from a top 5 Graphic Design program and only has a 9 week internship and no job prospects. Another friend with a Masters in Biomedical Engineering from UVA and hasn't been able to find work. I, myself, graduated in 2009 and applied to well over 400 different jobs in a slew of different fields before I eve graduated and got two interviews and no job offers. Did legal contracting while applying for work for 2 years (just an absurd number of jobs, with firms, waiting tables, hotels, you name it) and have only gotten a few interviews and only one job offer doing financial aid at a big university.

ITE it's fucking terrible for everyone. Personally, I'd rather take the gamble of doing law school and run a 25-50% chance of making solid money (not stupid money) in a field that I enjoy than wallow in the working poor class with a seemingly worthless B.S. and $30k in undergrad debt.



Absolutely this! Posters who have not been out in the "real world" completely fail to understand this fact. I can't wait to quit my shitty dead end job in order to attend a TT!

bigkahuna2020
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby bigkahuna2020 » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:41 am

Tell me about it. I graduated in the top 5% of my undergrad, which is a really good public school (think Michigan tier, probably a step down from UC-B/UVA though) spent a year teaching in China, a year working a a neuro lab, and a summer at a law firm...the first two were jobs I literally MADE for myself, and the last was family connections, and I ended up getting a few days a month in a mailroom. I interviewed at half a dozen financial firms and half a dozen law firms, but no give (and my staffing agencies told me most of the jobs, even the lowest end ones, had something like 20-30 people interviewing per position.

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fatduck
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby fatduck » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:05 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
sjedood wrote:
areyouinsane wrote:most of these kids would be better off skipping law school altogether


students from Brooklyn and Cardozo who finish top 15% have a real chance at big law

this post did not get enough credit

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Ele
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby Ele » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:24 pm

Is there any data on how many lawyers voluntarily leave the field in a given year (boomers retiring, death, etc.)? Using 5,000 as a pure guestimate, wouldn’t that open up a few thousand jobs every year? I realize that there are many other considerations, such as firms expanding, or layoffs. I am just trying to gauge the number of real openings.

To take this hypothetical ahead one more step. Generally speaking wouldn’t higher paid openings be filled by the top 25% graduates from T-14 schools, top 10% from Tier 1’s and on down the line. I understand that there are too many variables to nail this down, ala, would you rather be just barely at the top 50% at a T-10, versus top 10% at a top 50 Tier 1? I have no answers, just questions.

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NYC Law
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby NYC Law » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:25 pm

Ele wrote:Is there any data on how many lawyers voluntarily leave the field in a given year (boomers retiring, death, etc.)? Using 5,000 as a pure guestimate, wouldn’t that open up a few thousand jobs every year? I realize that there are many other considerations, such as firms expanding, or layoffs. I am just trying to gauge the number of real openings.

To take this hypothetical ahead one more step. Generally speaking wouldn’t higher paid openings be filled by the top 25% graduates from T-14 schools, top 10% from Tier 1’s and on down the line. I understand that there are too many variables to nail this down, ala, would you rather be just barely at the top 50% at a T-10, versus top 10% at a top 50 Tier 1? I have no answers, just questions.


The 30K openings accounts for that. 30K openings, 45K grads a year.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby ndirish2010 » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:28 pm

I'd probably say top 10 ish percent at a T25 is equivalent to median at a T10 (maybe T6, but I think Id rather be median at a T6 than top 10-15% at a T25). Top 10% at a T1 is good, but it's probably more like median at the lower T14.

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Renne Walker
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby Renne Walker » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:47 pm

NYC Law wrote: The 30K openings accounts for that. 30K openings, 45K grads a year.

That is certainly an interesting stat. If there any data on-line that fills in the blanks?

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fatduck
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby fatduck » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:48 pm

NYC Law wrote:
Ele wrote:Is there any data on how many lawyers voluntarily leave the field in a given year (boomers retiring, death, etc.)? Using 5,000 as a pure guestimate, wouldn’t that open up a few thousand jobs every year? I realize that there are many other considerations, such as firms expanding, or layoffs. I am just trying to gauge the number of real openings.

To take this hypothetical ahead one more step. Generally speaking wouldn’t higher paid openings be filled by the top 25% graduates from T-14 schools, top 10% from Tier 1’s and on down the line. I understand that there are too many variables to nail this down, ala, would you rather be just barely at the top 50% at a T-10, versus top 10% at a top 50 Tier 1? I have no answers, just questions.


The 30K openings accounts for that. 30K openings, 45K grads a year.

so i only have to be in the top 2/3? awesome.

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Shammis
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby Shammis » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:52 pm

bigtttymer wrote:I am class of 2011 coming out of a T2 (not CA


Not being antagonisitc...but where is youre T2 located. If it's not near a major market, this doesnt surprise me due to a possible lack of alumni network. In LA, LLS is well respected and the alumni are pretty active in helping you out if you approach them right and network.

As to the general job market...I graduated a year ago from UC Irvine and have yet to find a "real" job. Ive been bouncing around in retail, file clerking at a law firm, and just nabbed a legal internship at a production company (good experience, bad pay). My other friends have not been as lucky, and almost nobody is working in their desired fields (Save for an accountant and a recently graduated real estate agent who got a job at CBRE). Most are working minimum wage at sbux, the mall, etc. This year off has really given me some perspective as to why I am going to law school. The law is interesting, and the law gives you the possibility of actually making a living.

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bk1
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby bk1 » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:54 pm

Renne Walker wrote:
NYC Law wrote: The 30K openings accounts for that. 30K openings, 45K grads a year.

That is certainly an interesting stat. If there any data on-line that fills in the blanks?


From the BLS via the LA Times: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/08 ... -2010jan08

LA Times wrote:From 2004 through 2008, the field grew less than 1% per year on average, going from 735,000 people making a living as attorneys to just 760,000, with the Bureau of Labor Statistics postulating that the field will grow at the same rate through 2016. Taking into account retirements, deaths and that the bureau's data is pre-recession, the number of new positions is likely to be fewer than 30,000 per year. That is far fewer than what's needed to accommodate the 45,000 juris doctors graduating from U.S. law schools each year.


From the ABA: --LinkRemoved--

ABA wrote:Number of Degrees Awarded 2010: 44,004

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crossarmant
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby crossarmant » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:03 pm

jstubbs wrote:
bigtttymer wrote:I am class of 2011 coming out of a T2 (not CA


Not being antagonisitc...but where is youre T2 located. If it's not near a major market, this doesnt surprise me due to a possible lack of alumni network. In LA, LLS is well respected and the alumni are pretty active in helping you out if you approach them right and network.


Not all T2's are created equal, neither are all TTTs for that matter. Some schools like St. John, Syracuse, etc get buried by everyone else and rack you up in debt; but others like UConn, WVU, or Rutgers seem to place very well in their respective markets and are rather reasonably priced in-state. Personally, I feel that if you're going to a T2 then it had better be a state school, the top or equal to the top school for it's market, or the only school in the state.

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Ele
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby Ele » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:00 pm

bk1 wrote:
LA Times wrote: 735,000 people making a living as attorneys to just 760,000, with the Bureau of Labor Statistics postulating that the field will grow at the same rate through 2016. . . , the number of new positions is likely to be fewer than 30,000 per year.

Holy Moly! My 5,000 guestimate was absurdly low. Considering that the cable and regular TV channels are jammed with attorney commercials, plus the boatload of yellow pages ads, I had no idea that there would be 30,000 law firm openings this year. There are more attorneys than there are people in living Fort Worth! If the data includes some recessionary stats, this is encouraging for 30,000 of the 45,000 lawyers going to OCI or out there knocking on doors.
Last edited by Ele on Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

akhan
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Re: Starting Salary Out of Tier 2

Postby akhan » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:00 pm

Some lower ranked schools grads do pretty ok, the chances are just low. Some of the most prominent and successful trial lawyers in Maryland graduated from UB. That said if you have to be one hell of a legal talent and catch some breaks along the way. Its rare, but it happens. Disclaimer: this is information I have been given from successful lawyers in Maryland that did NOT go to UB, my own personal knowledge on this issue is beyond limited.




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