Another UF vs. FSU thread

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Barbie
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Re: Another UF vs. FSU thread

Postby Barbie » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:14 pm

FEEL THE HEAT! Let this person go to FSU.

Again:

1. Create poll

2. GO TO FSU.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Another UF vs. FSU thread

Postby FeelTheHeat » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:27 pm

I understand, but I want the facts to be there when next cycle comes around and people such as myself use TLS as a resource for making their decision. It was through the evidence and facts presented in previous threads that I was able to make an informed decision, and I hope to pass it along to future applicants.

EricBerry
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Re: Another UF vs. FSU thread

Postby EricBerry » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 pm

FeelTheHeat wrote:I understand, but I want the facts to be there when next cycle comes around and people such as myself use TLS as a resource for making their decision. It was through the evidence and facts presented in previous threads that I was able to make an informed decision, and I hope to pass it along to future applicants.


LOL in that case, you should do some editing to your posts in the FSU 2011 thread. If I were a future applicant reading your posts in that thread, it would be hard for me to take what you're now saying very seriously. Just letting you know since you're concerned about being a custodian of information to future applicants.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Another UF vs. FSU thread

Postby FeelTheHeat » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:26 pm

EricBerry wrote:
FeelTheHeat wrote:I understand, but I want the facts to be there when next cycle comes around and people such as myself use TLS as a resource for making their decision. It was through the evidence and facts presented in previous threads that I was able to make an informed decision, and I hope to pass it along to future applicants.


LOL in that case, you should do some editing to your posts in the FSU 2011 thread. If I were a future applicant reading your posts in that thread, it would be hard for me to take what you're now saying very seriously. Just letting you know since you're concerned about being a custodian of information to future applicants.


If that is what you guys want to resort to, that's fine. I think it's a good testament to how being open to new information can help make for, in my case, a better decision.

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Bless
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Re: Another UF vs. FSU thread

Postby Bless » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:09 pm

FeelTheHeat, you need to work on not coming across as such a douche all the time. Not going to sugarcoat it; I'll just come out and say it.

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Bill Cosby
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Re: Another UF vs. FSU thread

Postby Bill Cosby » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:55 pm

Bless wrote:FeelTheHeat, you need to work on not coming across as such a douche all the time. Not going to sugarcoat it; I'll just come out and say it.


Why do you think he's a douche? He has a difference of opinion with others and that's fine. His inflammatory stuff didn't come until after another poster implied he was either an idiot or a liar.

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Bless
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Re: Another UF vs. FSU thread

Postby Bless » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:17 pm

I don't think he is one; I think he acts like one. And I'm not referring to his difference in opinion. Actually, his opinions aren't so different than mine.


Anyway, continue on with the thread...

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Barbie
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Re: Another UF vs. FSU thread

Postby Barbie » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:02 pm

Did OP run for cover yet? Probably just deposited at Miami. lol

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Cool Brees
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Re: Another UF vs. FSU thread

Postby Cool Brees » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:16 pm

Let me preface this by saying that you ARE right. UF grads have the better chance of landing a higher paying starting salary out of the gate. I think it is well known that UF is the "biglaw" school of the two to the extent that "biglaw" exists in the state of Florida, and FSU is still a respectable school but more grads will go into less lucrative government work. You seem like an alright guy, BUT I think you painted a slightly distorted picture in regards to exactly how much better that chance is particularly ITE.

FeelTheHeat wrote:given the fluidity of these rankings and how easily they are gamed, I believe it would be prudent to use other facts to support your argument. Like...salaries?


Yeah, because the self-reported, salary data made available to us paints a clear picture right?

FeelTheHeat wrote:--LinkRemoved--

FSU Class of 2009

Out of the 35% that have reported,

7% indicate a salary greater than $90,000

7% indicate a salary between $70,000 and $90,000

7% indicate a salary between $60,000 and $70,000

7% indicate a salary less than $60,000.

--LinkRemoved--

FSU Class of 2008

Out of the 30% that have reported,

6.8% indicate a salary greater than $105,000

6.8% indicate a salary between $70,000 and $105,000

6.8% indicate a salary between $58,000 and $70,000.

6.8% indicate a salary less than $58,000.

US News and World Report pegs their most recent salary numbers at $60k-$70k-90k.

Now, Florida.

--LinkRemoved--

UF Class of 2009

Out of the 46% that have reported,

7.6% indicate a salary greater than $135,000.

7.6% indicate a salary between $100,000 and $135,000.

7.6% indicate a salary between $70,000 and $100,000.

7.6% indicate a salary less than $70,000.

--LinkRemoved--

UF Class of 2008

Out of the FIFTY EIGHT PERCENT that have reported,

13% indicate a salary greater than $130,000.

13% indicate a salary between $85,000 and $130,000.

13% indicate a salary between $70,000 and $85,000.

13% indicate a salary less than $70,000.


Interestingly enough for your pissing contest, FSU's numbers actually saw a slight dip while UF's rises. But keep touting the rankings. They mean a lot when paying off your loans.


First, let me say that for 2008, UF whipped FSU's butt. Now to the analysis: When I look at this data and see "a salary less than X", I can not quantify that value. While it is nice that the person reported something, the number could be $65,000 or it could be $24,000. So, for me, it only makes sense to count those salaries in a defined range that we can all agree upon. Having said that, when you look at the salaries that can actually be accounted for, in 2008 39% of UF graduates made $70,000 or more. Where as, in 2008 only 13.6% of FSU grads made $70,000 or more. Moreover, 13% of UF grads made $130,000 or more. Again, Kudos.

HOWEVER, I would like to point out that '08 grads were OCI'ing during Fall '06. I would dare say that this was pre-ITE. Therefore, my first point of contention comes from you stating that "FSU's numbers actually saw a slight dip while UF's rises." If you look at the numbers for the next year (2009), while the dollar figures get bigger for UF, the number reporting that salary are almost cut in half!!! The percentages change from 13% to 7.6%. To put this clearly:

UF 2008: 39.0% made $70,000 or more
UF 2009: 22.8% made $70,000 or more

FSU 2008: 13.6% made $70,000 or more
FSU 2009: 14.0% made $70,000 or more

So, while UF's top performers earned more dollar wise in 2009, a significant number of graduates started out making less than their 2008 counterparts. What is even scarier about that, is there were 57 MORE graduates in 2008 than 2009 (482 vs. 425). That means that 188 of 482 made $70,000 or more in 2008. Where as, only 97 out of 425 made $70,000 or more in 2008.



I kept that comparison apples to apples since you "go to school to make money". However, I would like to point out that since FSU's salaries are lower, it creates an additional grouping that is not counted in the above analysis. Going back to the point of salaries that can be quantified, the numbers look like this:

UF 2008: 39.0% made $70,000 or more
UF 2009: 22.8% made $70,000 or more

FSU 2008: 20.4% made $58,000 or more
FSU 2009: 21.0% made $60,000 or more

Looking at this breakdown, it is clear that ~20% of FSU grads made $58K or more both years. Now, it is possible that all of the members of the last UF groups, the final 7.6% ('09) and the final 13% ('08), could have been making +$58K, but we don't know that. UF is very top heavy. I know you are a special snowflake and all, but let's be real, either school is a gamble as far as making the big bucks are concerned In This Economy.


My second point of contention is that the "reported" number you are touting includes AIII clerkships, those pursuing graduate degrees, and the unemployed. The reported number is very important, but the way it is presented for 2009 is misleading. Again, in 2008, UF was riding the wave and clearly beat FSU. Here are the reported numbers without AIII clerkships, without those pursuing graduate degrees, and without the unemployed:

UF 2008: 51.7% reported <- impressive; that number put UF in the 78.5 percentile for all law schools that year
UF 2009: 30.6% reported (46.1 percentile)*

FSU 2008: 27.1% reported (27.5 percentile)
FSU 2009: 28.1% reported (40.6 percentile)

*2009 was so much lower than the "46%" reported number you posted because 10.1% pursued graduate degrees and 2.9% were unemployed and 2.4% got an AIII clerkship. Big difference between the 46% you touted and the actual 30.6% that reported.


^ Once again, this analysis shows that it was UF that had a huge drop between 2008 and 2009. The school went from 51.7% reporting to just 30.6%. Where as, FSU maintained a similar level and similar percentile compared to other law schools for better or worse. Additionally, both schools had a comparable percentile rank in comparison to all other law schools (40.6 vs. 46.1).


FeelTheHeat wrote:Now, I have demonstrated that UF presents a significant advantage when it comes to the compensation of the work graduates receive. I go to school to make money. Might I also add you questioned my financial senses. It would appear that, adhering to the information presented, I will compensate for my scholarship with my degree from UF in a single year. You may extrapolate the rest. If you are going to question my decision through insults or appealing to trivial reasons, please proceed in the way of actual facts. Thank you.



Again, I agree with you that UF grads have a greater chance of making more starting out, but I do not believe that the difference in that chance is as great as you made it seem. With your South Florida hopes, UF is the right choice for you. However, that chance of hitting the big time is still exactly that, a CHANCE. For 2009 it was only a 22.8% chance. And, if you aren't in that 22.8%, then that scholarship could have meant a lot when you are facing those previously mentioned student loans.

I'll end by saying what I said to start with: I think it is well known that UF is the "biglaw" school of the two, to the extent that "biglaw" exists in the state of Florida and that a 22.8% chance qualifies you as the "biglaw" school, and FSU is still respectable but more grads will go into less lucrative government work.

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Cool Brees
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Re: Another UF vs. FSU thread

Postby Cool Brees » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:18 pm

Lastly, I will leave you all with the wisdom of Nightrunner:

Nightrunner wrote:People should be very skeptical of generic, median-oriented salary data. It is often subject to gaming, and not representative.

Here is a graduate outcomes chart (older data, but from a better hiring economy):

Image

THINGS TO NOTICE:

The first three bars on the left (NLJ 250, Other Firms, and Clerkships) are good things. No matter how someone tries to game them, they indicate graduates who are gainfully employed in the legal field.

The last three bars on the right (Unemployed, Unknown, Attrition) are BAD things. They indicate students who are absolutely not gainfully employed in legal jobs.

The positions in the middle can be either/or scenarios, and are hard to gauge. Sometimes "Business" means a legal job for a corporation; sometimes it means working at Starbucks. I have two friends with J.D.s who work in "Government." One works for the House Rules Committee, drafting laws (a bomb-ass gig). Another answers phones in a State Representative's Office (not so much bomb-ass). Both fall under the "government" category.

Please, please, please keep in mind that these data are from a better hiring economy.

.....

IIRC, this is from an ABA Report in 2009, meaning it was the Class of 2008, meaning they did OCI in 2006.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=126256

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Another UF vs. FSU thread

Postby FeelTheHeat » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:07 pm

Cool Brees wrote:Let me preface this by saying that you ARE right. UF grads have the better chance of landing a higher paying starting salary out of the gate. I think it is well known that UF is the "biglaw" school of the two to the extent that "biglaw" exists in the state of Florida, and FSU is still a respectable school but more grads will go into less lucrative government work. You seem like an alright guy, BUT I think you painted a slightly distorted picture in regards to exactly how much better that chance is particularly ITE.


I think all this is pretty correct and in line with the points I was trying to make.

Cool Brees wrote:Yeah, because the self-reported, salary data made available to us paints a clear picture right?


Definitely not. But unfortunately for all of us, it is the best available means of establishing differences between the two schools. Hard numbers would probably help FSU more than UF anyways, as UF has a far greater degree of lay prestige. However, you won't see me referencing that as I think it is a pretty meaningless distinction.



FeelTheHeat wrote:A lot of boring numbers.


Cool Brees wrote:First, let me say that for 2008, UF whipped FSU's butt. Now to the analysis: When I look at this data and see "a salary less than X", I can not quantify that value. While it is nice that the person reported something, the number could be $65,000 or it could be $24,000. So, for me, it only makes sense to count those salaries in a defined range that we can all agree upon. Having said that, when you look at the salaries that can actually be accounted for, in 2008 39% of UF graduates made $70,000 or more. Where as, in 2008 only 13.6% of FSU grads made $70,000 or more. Moreover, 13% of UF grads made $130,000 or more. Again, Kudos.

HOWEVER, I would like to point out that '08 grads were OCI'ing during Fall '06. I would dare say that this was pre-ITE. Therefore, my first point of contention comes from you stating that "FSU's numbers actually saw a slight dip while UF's rises." If you look at the numbers for the next year (2009), while the dollar figures get bigger for UF, the number reporting that salary are almost cut in half!!! The percentages change from 13% to 7.6%. To put this clearly:

UF 2008: 39.0% made $70,000 or more
UF 2009: 22.8% made $70,000 or more

FSU 2008: 13.6% made $70,000 or more
FSU 2009: 14.0% made $70,000 or more



UF definitely took the big hit with the recession, while FSU more or less maintained their position. Valid point.

Cool Brees wrote:So, while UF's top performers earned more dollar wise in 2009, a significant number of graduates started out making less than their 2008 counterparts. What is even scarier about that, is there were 57 MORE graduates in 2008 than 2009 (482 vs. 425). That means that 188 of 482 made $70,000 or more in 2008. Where as, only 97 out of 425 made $70,000 or more in 2008.


One thing I want to do (too lazy to now) is see when the number of graduates were cut down. I know that classes are only 300 students now, which would obviously impact the percentages in a big way.



Cool Brees wrote:I kept that comparison apples to apples since you "go to school to make money". However, I would like to point out that since FSU's salaries are lower, it creates an additional grouping that is not counted in the above analysis. Going back to the point of salaries that can be quantified, the numbers look like this:

UF 2008: 39.0% made $70,000 or more
UF 2009: 22.8% made $70,000 or more

FSU 2008: 20.4% made $58,000 or more
FSU 2009: 21.0% made $60,000 or more

Looking at this breakdown, it is clear that ~20% of FSU grads made $58K or more both years. Now, it is possible that all of the members of the last UF groups, the final 7.6% ('09) and the final 13% ('08), could have been making +$58K, but we don't know that. UF is very top heavy. I know you are a special snowflake and all, but let's be real, either school is a gamble as far as making the big bucks are concerned In This Economy.


I prefer special flower, thank you. And your last point is the main one everyone should be considering. UF is certainly top heavy, as you proved. But if we are going to be taking that gamble, I want the odds in my favor to make the most money possible. The top quarter to third of UF looks to be in considerably better shape, as you noted. And I don't think it takes being a special snowflake to land there.


Cool Brees wrote:My second point of contention is that the "reported" number you are touting includes AIII clerkships, those pursuing graduate degrees, and the unemployed. The reported number is very important, but the way it is presented for 2009 is misleading. Again, in 2008, UF was riding the wave and clearly beat FSU. Here are the reported numbers without AIII clerkships, without those pursuing graduate degrees, and without the unemployed:

UF 2008: 51.7% reported <- impressive; that number put UF in the 78.5 percentile for all law schools that year
UF 2009: 30.6% reported (46.1 percentile)*

FSU 2008: 27.1% reported (27.5 percentile)
FSU 2009: 28.1% reported (40.6 percentile)

*2009 was so much lower than the "46%" reported number you posted because 10.1% pursued graduate degrees and 2.9% were unemployed and 2.4% got an AIII clerkship. Big difference between the 46% you touted and the actual 30.6% that reported.


^ Once again, this analysis shows that it was UF that had a huge drop between 2008 and 2009. The school went from 51.7% reporting to just 30.6%. Where as, FSU maintained a similar level and similar percentile compared to other law schools for better or worse. Additionally, both schools had a comparable percentile rank in comparison to all other law schools (40.6 vs. 46.1).


Fair to say that due to FSU flying under the radar they weathered the hits dealt to schools that place students into high-paying jobs (UF, Emory, law schools in general lol)


Cool Brees wrote:Again, I agree with you that UF grads have a greater chance of making more starting out, but I do not believe that the difference in that chance is as great as you made it seem. With your South Florida hopes, UF is the right choice for you. However, that chance of hitting the big time is still exactly that, a CHANCE. For 2009 it was only a 22.8% chance. And, if you aren't in that 22.8%, then that scholarship could have meant a lot when you are facing those previously mentioned student loans.

I'll end by saying what I said to start with: I think it is well known that UF is the "biglaw" school of the two, to the extent that "biglaw" exists in the state of Florida and that a 22.8% chance qualifies you as the "biglaw" school, and FSU is still respectable but more grads will go into less lucrative government work.


All this is correct. The main point we are going to disagree on is this: I will choose to chalk up the 2009 plummet to sample size and the recession. As the economy recovers (if it does), it stands to reason UF has a substantially better claim at returning to pre-ITE economy numbers as it was already there. We obviously don't know what the future holds, but the past will likely be the best indicator. Either way, valid points, and good for future readers of this thread.

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Bless
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Re: Another UF vs. FSU thread

Postby Bless » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:57 pm

A lot of good scary information in here.




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