Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

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Lolek
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Lolek » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:05 pm

NYC Law wrote:

And yeah, I agree with everything else you said, except the part about Fordham being a terrible choice. It's pretty much the only choice if you want to be a New York lawyer and couldn't break the upper T14, with sticker being the only option for many. They give out scholarships to 1/3 of full time students, most of which are less than $10k, making the cost still around $200k. It's a huge risk and a legal job is nowhere near guaranteed, but sometimes you just have to take a risk.


This.

What I don't understand is how people claim that if you go to a school like Fordham (we're not talking about NYLS here...), you're going to 90% be stuck with a shit job and tons of loans that you can't pay back.

Can someone aware me as to how they got this information? Let's add up the people that have graduated from Fordham over the last 3 years, you're telling me that most of them are near bankruptcy stuck with a 50k job in NYC (if any job at all)?

Show me the statistics that this is the case, otherwise these scare tactics don't make sense.

All the people that go to Fordham every year, they're all jobless now? They're all living in shacks spending all their money on their loans? Howcome we don't hear about any of this happening and the school keeps churning out a student body each year?

I'm not trying to attack anybody, I'm just legitimately curious where you can come off claiming that a school of Fordham's stature is not worth an investment (even at sticker) if you're planning to work in the city. The Fordham alumni network is huge there.

On another note, we're all talking about jobs you get immediately post-school. So let's say some of these people do not wind up getting a great paying job, they are lost for eternity? They missed their chance while in school and now their JD from Fordham is somehow irrelevant? How does this work?

Seems like an extreme case of being overly pessimistic to me, especially considering the school we're discussing.

According to this logic, people going to schools like Cardozo and Brooklyn (even with full rides) should just up and quit since there will absolutely be no room for them to get any type of job whatsoever. After all...it's only lowly Cardozo and Brooklyn, the worst of the worst. Career change if that's where you're going, correct? ...

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Gecko of Doom
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Gecko of Doom » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:14 pm

Lolek wrote:What I don't understand is how people claim that if you go to a school like Fordham (we're not talking about NYLS here...), you're going to 90% be stuck with a shit job and tons of loans that you can't pay back.

I'm not sure if everyone is quite saying that.

Personally, probably the only way I would live in NYC following graduation is if I went there for biglaw. If my only shot at NYC biglaw was Fordham, I would just chuck the whole idea of NYC and go to a school that placed into a different market and left me with less debt and a lower cost of living. I think a lot of people feel that way, thus the conventional wisdom that sticker at Fordham is usually a bad idea.

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bk1
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:16 pm

Lolek wrote:
NYC Law wrote:

And yeah, I agree with everything else you said, except the part about Fordham being a terrible choice. It's pretty much the only choice if you want to be a New York lawyer and couldn't break the upper T14, with sticker being the only option for many. They give out scholarships to 1/3 of full time students, most of which are less than $10k, making the cost still around $200k. It's a huge risk and a legal job is nowhere near guaranteed, but sometimes you just have to take a risk.


This.

What I don't understand is how people claim that if you go to a school like Fordham (we're not talking about NYLS here...), you're going to 90% be stuck with a shit job and tons of loans that you can't pay back. Can someone aware me as to how they got this information? Let's add up the people that have graduated from Fordham over the last 3 years, you're telling me that most of them are near bankruptcy stuck with a 50k job in NYC (if any job at all)? Show me the statistics that this is the case, otherwise these scare tactics don't make sense. All the people that go to Fordham every year, they're all jobless now? They're all living in shacks spending all their money on their loans? Howcome we don't hear about any of this happening and the school keeps churning out a student body each year? I'm not trying to attack anybody, I'm just legitimately curious where you can come off claiming that a school of Fordham's stature is not worth an investment (even at sticker) if you're planning to work in the city. The Fordham alumni network is huge there. On another note, we're all talking about jobs you get immediately post-school. So let's say some of these people do not wind up getting a great paying job, they are lost for eternity? They missed their chance while in school and now their JD from Fordham is somehow irrelevant? How does this work? Seems like an extreme case of being overly pessimistic to me, especially considering the school we're discussing.

According to this logic, people going to schools like Cardozo and Brooklyn (even with full rides) should just up and quit since there will absolutely be no room for them to get any type of job whatsoever. After all...it's only lowly Cardozo and Brooklyn, the worst of the worst. Career change if that's where you're going, correct? ...


It stems from a few basic assumptions: That it is very rare for fresh graduates to get midlaw because midlaw so they are generally relegated to their smalllaw or biglaw. Only biglaw is paying 6 figure salaries. Let's assume that during the boom, about 50% of Fordham grads were getting biglaw. That doesn't sound too unreasonable looking at statistics from people who interviewed pre-ITE (--LinkRemoved--). Things are worse now. Back then, only 3/4 of Fordham grads got full time lawyer jobs (--LinkRemoved--) and it probably is worse now. So now, maybe a what 1/3 or so chance at biglaw meaning anybody who is taking out sticker has a 1/3 chance of being able to pay it in a reasonable amount of time?

When there are 3 grads for every 2 jobs, things really are rough. The reason I think people aren't supper pessimistic about it is because you can make variable payments on your loans and it's like they don't exist (other than the principle getting huge). You can make 50k/year and have 200k worth of debt and if you just act like it isn't there you wouldn't be the wiser. Plus people don't want to admit they failed. Do I think that you will have no job or just doc review out of Fordham? Of course not, but I do think your odds of paying off sticker price debt are low enough to be quite risky.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:23 pm

What I don't get about OP's plan of using PSLF is it assumes that OP can get a PSLF job. I guess it wouldn't be insanely hard to get any PSLF job, but if you don't get a legal one, and those are much tougher to come by, then what is the point?

And if you're doing regular IBR, do you really want to have that debt around your neck for two and a half decades?
Last edited by bk1 on Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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NYC Law
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:23 pm

bk1 wrote:It stems from a few basic assumptions: That it is very rare for fresh graduates to get midlaw because midlaw so they are generally relegated to their smalllaw or biglaw. Only biglaw is paying 6 figure salaries. Let's assume that during the boom, about 50% of Fordham grads were getting biglaw. That doesn't sound too unreasonable looking at statistics from people who interviewed pre-ITE (--LinkRemoved--). Things are worse now. Back then, only 3/4 of Fordham grads got full time lawyer jobs (--LinkRemoved--) and it probably is worse now. So now, maybe a what 1/3 or so chance at biglaw meaning anybody who is taking out sticker has a 1/3 chance of being able to pay it in a reasonable amount of time?

When there are 3 grads for every 2 jobs, things really are rough. The reason I think people aren't supper pessimistic about it is because you can make variable payments on your loans and it's like they don't exist (other than the principle getting huge). You can make 50k/year and have 200k worth of debt and if you just act like it isn't there you wouldn't be the wiser. Plus people don't want to admit they failed. Do I think that you will have no job or just doc review out of Fordham? Of course not, but I do think your odds of paying off sticker price debt are low enough to be quite risky.


I think a reason for believing Fordham grads get the mythical midlaw (or high paying small law/boutique type stuff - it is NYC after all) is because even when 30% were getting NLJ 250 (2009), 40-45% were still making $145k+ (lawschooltransparency). For the upcoming classes it probably will be closer to 1/3 or less making that kind of money, but those are still the best odds you can get coming out of a non-T14. Things are just shitty all around.

But I agree with you and you come to reasonable conclusions. The ultimate decision comes down to the individual and how risk averse they are.

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bk1
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:26 pm

NYC Law wrote:I think a reason for believing Fordham grads get the mythical midlaw (or high paying small law/boutique type stuff - it is NYC after all) is because even when 30% were getting NLJ 250 (2009), 40-45% were still making $145k+ (lawschooltransparency). For the upcoming classes it probably will be closer to 1/3 or less making that kind of money, but those are still the best odds you can get coming out of a non-T14. Things are just shitty all around.

But I agree with you and you come to reasonable conclusions. The ultimate decision comes down to the individual and how risk averse they are.


I realize you are basically saying what I'm about to say with your comment "things are just shitty all around," but my opinion is:

Just because they are the best non-T14 odds you can get doesn't mean they justify sticker. Heck, just because T14's have the best odds you can get does not mean they justify sticker.

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NYC Law
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:35 pm

bk1 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:I think a reason for believing Fordham grads get the mythical midlaw (or high paying small law/boutique type stuff - it is NYC after all) is because even when 30% were getting NLJ 250 (2009), 40-45% were still making $145k+ (lawschooltransparency). For the upcoming classes it probably will be closer to 1/3 or less making that kind of money, but those are still the best odds you can get coming out of a non-T14. Things are just shitty all around.

But I agree with you and you come to reasonable conclusions. The ultimate decision comes down to the individual and how risk averse they are.


I realize you are basically saying what I'm about to say with your comment "things are just shitty all around," but my opinion is:

Just because they are the best non-T14 odds you can get doesn't mean they justify sticker. Heck, just because T14's have the best odds you can get does not mean they justify sticker.


It doesn't justify the price speaking strictly financially with a full risk analysis, however if you absolutely want to be a corporate attorney in New York this is the only way to do it (assuming you aren't able to pull the kinds of numbers needed for a large T14 scholarship). So you have a completely elastic demand and would be willing to pay whatever, as long as there's some semblance of a way to pay it back if you're successful. The only other alternative would be a school like Cardozo/BLS/SJU with a large scholarship, but the odds of gaining the kind of employment you want at that point truly are negligible (compared to a mere slightly improbable at Fordham).

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby MrAnon » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:37 pm

Just ask the Fordham front office to tell you exactly where the grads from this year's class are finding jobs. Ask how many students graduated and for a list of every employer that the students reported at graduation. if they won't tell you then that is your answer as to whether you should attend or not.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:38 pm

MrAnon wrote:Just ask the Fordham front office to tell you exactly where the grads from this year's class are finding jobs. Ask how many students graduated and for a list of every employer that the students reported at graduation. if they won't tell you then that is your answer as to whether you should attend or not.


When trying to find placement stats on their site, I enjoyed this: http://law.fordham.edu/about-fordham/5247.htm

ETA: Ah here we go for something half decent: http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/21378.htm

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:40 pm

bk1 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Just ask the Fordham front office to tell you exactly where the grads from this year's class are finding jobs. Ask how many students graduated and for a list of every employer that the students reported at graduation. if they won't tell you then that is your answer as to whether you should attend or not.


When trying to find placement stats on their site, I enjoyed this: http://law.fordham.edu/about-fordham/5247.htm


That kind of stuff did turn me off to the school a little initially, they seem desperate. But whatever, we all have our own marketing approaches.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:40 pm

NYC Law wrote:That kind of stuff did turn me off to the school a little initially, they seem desperate. But whatever, we all have our own marketing approaches.


Oh I'm not trying to slam Fordham personally for that. That's an institutional problem across all schools.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:43 pm

bk1 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:That kind of stuff did turn me off to the school a little initially, they seem desperate. But whatever, we all have our own marketing approaches.


Oh I'm not trying to slam Fordham personally for that. That's an institutional problem across all schools.


They do it weird though, kinda funny. I think it's admirable they at least provide some decent disclosure on the stats page.

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Lolek
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Lolek » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:14 pm

The stats page is irrelevant and a marketing tool, that goes for every school.

I'm referring to the student body that graduates each year. IF times are so bad, and about 1/3rd of Fordham students get any type of scholarship, what are all these students doing that are graduating with this debt?

I'm assuming they are smart, as they were able to get in there in the first place. Therefore, if a majority of them are screwed from the get-go (financially), what are they all doing? Each year the list of JD's from Fordham piles up and they're all jobless?

I heard of a few people from Rutgers-Newark secure a BigLaw job in the city this past year. How does that work?

But if we focus only on one question, it is this: Why do people only discuss OCI placement as if that is the only shot at a great paying job? If you miss the boat, your JD is worthless?

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:19 pm

Lolek wrote:The stats page is irrelevant and a marketing tool, that goes for every school. I'm referring to the student body that graduates each year. IF times are so bad, and about 1/3rd of Fordham students get any type of scholarship, what are all these students doing that are graduating with this debt? I'm assuming they are smart, as they were able to get in there in the first place. Therefore, if a majority of them are screwed from the get-go (financially), what are they all doing? Each year the list of JD's from Fordham piles up and they're all jobless? I heard of a few people from Rutgers-Newark secure a BigLaw job in the city this past year. How does that work? But if we focus only on one question, it is this: Why do people only discuss OCI placement as if that is the only shot at a great paying job? If you miss the boat, your JD is worthless?


Your tying style drives me mad. Plus you are all over the place.

Nobody is talking just about OCI placement. However, OCI is about the only way you will be able to get biglaw and if you are paying sticker that is generally what you need to pay off that kind of debt. Of course some people from RU-N get biglaw, just not many. And at least according to a NALP search I see that some NYC biglaw firms do OCI at RU-N. Nobody said that all Fordham grads are jobless, you're strawmanning. It is also a faulty assumption to assume they are smart just because they can get a 3.7+ or 166+. And as I said earlier, they aren't technically screwed they can pay off their debt after a long time or they can just pay the minimum and pretend like it doesn't exist.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:25 pm

I discovered today that anything you put into a 401(k) isn't touched when you go bankrupt, so even if you do have to go bankrupt after the tax bomb it won't be the end of the world.

So eh... Things suck, but no matter what you do that's probably going to be the case. This is just a eat what you kill; take what you get economy. Debt slave JDs still have it better than many others right now.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby dr123 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:28 pm

OP never even stated an interest in working in the public sector. All this PSLF talk doesn't really apply.

Also, FTR, any job with a 501c3 qualifies for PSLF.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:29 pm

dr123 wrote:OP never even stated an interest in working in the public sector. All this PSLF talk doesn't really apply.

Also, FTR, any job with a 501c3 qualifies for PSLF.


OP said 120 months of payments so PSLF was implied.

And yes of course it is any, but if it isn't legal what was the point of going to law school if you just end up with any old PSLF job?
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Gecko of Doom » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:29 pm

NYC Law wrote:Debt slave JDs still have it better than many others right now.

This, while unfortunate, is often true.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby scammedhard » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:35 pm

Gecko of Doom wrote:
NYC Law wrote:Debt slave JDs still have it better than many others right now.

This, while unfortunate, is often true.

True. But often times, not better than pre-JD for the same individual. For many, getting a JD has made them worse off than before.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby dr123 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:37 pm

bk1 wrote:
dr123 wrote:OP never even stated an interest in working in the public sector. All this PSLF talk doesn't really apply.

Also, FTR, any job with a 501c3 qualifies for PSLF.


OP said 120 months of payments so PSLF was implied.

And yes of course it is any, but if it isn't legal what was the point of going to law school if you just end up with any old PSLF job?


True, however there are some grey area public service jobs that are kind of legal. However those type of positions are rarely, if ever, filled by recent grads. I was just clarifying it seems like a lot of people don't really seem to know what they're talking about with PSLF. There are IT people at my 501c3 that are on PSLF.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:38 pm

scammedhard wrote:
Gecko of Doom wrote:
NYC Law wrote:Debt slave JDs still have it better than many others right now.

This, while unfortunate, is often true.

True. But often times, not better than pre-JD for the same individual. For many, getting a JD has made them worse off than before.


I just don't think this is true.

Pre-JD: Likely working retail, 0% chance of making >50k
JD: Debt, possibly working retail, 20-40% chance of making >140k, most likely making at least $60k out of school

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Lolek
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Lolek » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:39 pm

bk1 wrote:
Your tying style drives me mad. Plus you are all over the place.

Nobody is talking just about OCI placement. However, OCI is about the only way you will be able to get biglaw and if you are paying sticker that is generally what you need to pay off that kind of debt. Of course some people from RU-N get biglaw, just not many. And at least according to a NALP search I see that some NYC biglaw firms do OCI at RU-N. Nobody said that all Fordham grads are jobless, you're strawmanning. It is also a faulty assumption to assume they are smart just because they can get a 3.7+ or 166+. And as I said earlier, they aren't technically screwed they can pay off their debt after a long time or they can just pay the minimum and pretend like it doesn't exist.


The consensus here seems to be that if you do not score in OCI (with around a 15% chance) you are going to do shitlaw. The thought of possibly getting a good job after OCI doesn't even come into the discussion, therefore, it is automatically concluded that you have made a terrible financial choice by attempting to go to Fordham at sticker. On what basis do you judge one's entire future on a small interviewing window while that individual is at school? I realize it is a big deal, but is it your only shot?

I'm just saying, if the prospects are that bad at Fordham to securing a well paying job...what's the point of even going anywhere lower with scholarships? You might as well not waste those 3 years and earn yourself 90k (if we assume you're working on a 30k salary). You'll wind up with a similar paying job going there anyway, right?

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby scammedhard » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:41 pm

NYC Law wrote:I just don't think this is true.

Pre-JD: Likely working retail, 0% chance of making >50k
JD: Debt, possibly working retail, 20-40% chance of making >140k, most likely making at least $60k out of school

I think you forgot that there are 200 law schools in the US. I think your numbers apply to the top 50, or maybe even top 100.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:43 pm

scammedhard wrote:
NYC Law wrote:I just don't think this is true.

Pre-JD: Likely working retail, 0% chance of making >50k
JD: Debt, possibly working retail, 20-40% chance of making >140k, most likely making at least $60k out of school

I think you forgot that there are 200 law schools in the US. I think your numbers apply to the top 50, or maybe even top 100.


True, I was mostly talking about Fordham.

A NYLS or whatever grad probably will be worse off.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby scammedhard » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:46 pm

NYC Law wrote:True, I was mostly talking about Fordham.

A NYLS or whatever grad probably will be worse off.

My bad. I retract my comment.
For Fordham, I think post-JD better than pre-JD, at least for most people, and even considering sticker cost and corresponding debt.




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