Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

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Gecko of Doom
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Gecko of Doom » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:02 am

It is absolutely impossible to give relevant advice in this thread without more information about OP's situation.

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Robespierre
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Robespierre » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:26 am

OP, I think you're placing too much emphasis on IBR as a golden ticket that will make $230K of debt bearable.

You can't go on IBR unless your income is modest, so, to put it bluntly, you're already assuming a level of failure. Then, if you start making real money, you lose the benefit of IBR and have to make a gargantuan payment each month. If you don't make real money, a reduced monthly payment comes out of your modest income for TWENTY-FIVE years. Think about that: 25 years. It's most of your working life. And then at the end of 25 years, if you still have a balance, it's treated as income and you get socked with a huge tax bill just as you are trying to put your kids through college. And the cherry on top is that there's no escape from the nightmare: the loan is not dischargeable in bankruptcy.

This is America. The capitalist system. If you want to buy a valuable item such as a Fordham J.D., you have to either pay big money for it, or finance it. You obviously don't have the money to pay for it, so you have to borrow. But BORROWING IS SLAVERY, and student borrowing is a particularly nasty brand of slavery because you face an all-powerful creditor (the fedgov) and have to forfeit the chance of bankruptcy protection. IBR doesn't change any of that.

Go to Fordham only if you're willing to face all of the above.

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NYC Law
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:30 am

Robespierre wrote:OP, I think you're placing too much emphasis on IBR as a golden ticket that will make $230K of debt bearable.

You can't go on IBR unless your income is modest, so, to put it bluntly, you're already assuming a level of failure. Then, if you start making real money, you lose the benefit of IBR and have to make a gargantuan payment each month. If you don't make real money, a reduced monthly payment comes out of your modest income for TWENTY-FIVE years. Think about that: 25 years. It's most of your working life. And then at the end of 25 years, if you still have a balance, it's treated as income and you get socked with a huge tax bill just as you are trying to put your kids through college. And the cherry on top is that there's no escape from the nightmare: the loan is not dischargeable in bankruptcy.

This is America. The capitalist system. If you want to buy a valuable item such as a Fordham J.D., you have to either pay big money for it, or finance it. You obviously don't have the money to pay for it, so you have to borrow. But BORROWING IS SLAVERY, and student borrowing is a particularly nasty brand of slavery because you face an all-powerful creditor (the fedgov) and have to forfeit the chance of bankruptcy protection. IBR doesn't change any of that.

Go to Fordham only if you're willing to face all of the above.


Quit reading here because it's false. At 220k debt you can make $150k a year and you'd still qualify for IBR forgiveness

Also, the tax bill is dischargeable.

You also start to lose credibility when you sound like the Tea Party. I can't even think of a successful business entity that doesn't borrow.
Last edited by NYC Law on Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rayiner
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby rayiner » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:34 am

rarariot wrote:I invite anyone who thinks this is a bad idea to post your argument as to why I should not go. Please keep the arguments relevant and logical. Other than that, please do not hold anything back.

I promise to follow through and let you know what I decide. You know that you can count on an internet promise :wink: .

I have a less expensive option, it's about half as expensive, but I don't want to make this into a compare and contrast so please keep your arguments against Fordham at sticker.

Editing in some fun facts:

Cost of attendance 2011-2012: $73,573
Next year lets say: $76,000
Year after lets say: $79,000
Total Cost: $228,573

If I make $50,000 with IBR I pay $420 * 120 months = 50,400

Lets hope my salary increases with inflation, but you get the point. At $50,000, a Fordham Law School education is a great value.

50,400 + Loan Forgiveness= Total Cost of Education: 50,400


You need to add $30k for interest accrued during school.

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Robespierre
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Robespierre » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:15 pm

NYC Law wrote:
Robespierre wrote:OP, I think you're placing too much emphasis on IBR as a golden ticket that will make $230K of debt bearable.

You can't go on IBR unless your income is modest, so, to put it bluntly, you're already assuming a level of failure. Then, if you start making real money, you lose the benefit of IBR and have to make a gargantuan payment each month. If you don't make real money, a reduced monthly payment comes out of your modest income for TWENTY-FIVE years. Think about that: 25 years. It's most of your working life. And then at the end of 25 years, if you still have a balance, it's treated as income and you get socked with a huge tax bill just as you are trying to put your kids through college. And the cherry on top is that there's no escape from the nightmare: the loan is not dischargeable in bankruptcy.

This is America. The capitalist system. If you want to buy a valuable item such as a Fordham J.D., you have to either pay big money for it, or finance it. You obviously don't have the money to pay for it, so you have to borrow. But BORROWING IS SLAVERY, and student borrowing is a particularly nasty brand of slavery because you face an all-powerful creditor (the fedgov) and have to forfeit the chance of bankruptcy protection. IBR doesn't change any of that.

Go to Fordham only if you're willing to face all of the above.


Quit reading here because it's false. At 220k debt you can make $150k a year and you'd still qualify for IBR forgiveness

Also, the tax bill is dischargeable.

You also start to lose credibility when you sound like the Tea Party. I can't even think of a successful business entity that doesn't borrow.


The Tea Party says GOVERNMENT shouldn't borrow. I'm saying this INDIVIDUAL should think long and hard before taking on 230K in debt. It's completely different.

Please link to something about the tax bill being dischargeable. I didn't know that. Interesting.

But the point remains: IBR is only a small bit of relief from the oppressiveness of debt. For example, under the facts you posited, you wouldn't get a much reduced monthly payment if you earned 150K. And to the extent the payment was reduced, there's the tax bill to worry about.

No word from Cornell? My fingers are crossed for ya bud.

nickwar
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby nickwar » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:26 pm

I was in exactly the same boat as you. I went against Fordham and thank whatever higher power there is every single day that I didn't shell out $250k to go to Fordham.

And remember loan repayment systems are far from automatic. You might want to research the specifics, as I've heard that you must work for 10 continuous years (ie, if you get fired or sick of your job you're out of luck).

But you're right -- if you're sure you want to do public work and you are fairly positive you can get loan repayment it really is a great deal.

/graduating next year with roughly $10,000 in debt vs. $200,000+ at Fordham.

cr1stina
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby cr1stina » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:32 pm

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Last edited by cr1stina on Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gecko of Doom
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Gecko of Doom » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:34 pm

nickwar wrote:You might want to research the specifics, as I've heard that you must work for 10 continuous years (ie, if you get fired or sick of your job you're out of luck).

This is untrue, at least for the federal PSLF. Still doesn't necessarily make Fordham at sticker a good idea, though.

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Flips88
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Flips88 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:49 pm

Just to clarify. You can't expect to make $50,000 for 10 years straight. I know raises are modest in the public sector, but after working a decade in the same job you should see some income growth or you're doing it wrong. So you can assume a starting payment of $420, but let's say by year 10, you're making $65,000 and now your payment is $610 a month. So estimating the total cost at $50,000 is way too low, but it will still be a fraction of the total cost.

As to why no Fordham at sticker. Presumably, Fordham's only market in NYC. I'm not educated on their placement elsewhere, but for the most part you're going to be looking for a job in NYC. I'm sure there are lots of public interest job in NYC, but it's also one of the most competitive markets in the country. You want a good PI job probably? well you're competing against NYU and Columbia kids plus those from other T-14 that want good PI jobs in NYC. I'm not saying it's impossible to find a good PI job in NYC out of Fordham, but realize you'll be facing lots of competition from better schools. Likewise, living in NYC will be tight on a PI budget because of the high COL.

That said, going to Fordham at sticker means you're Big Law, PI, or bust. You can't get a $50,000 per year private job and have good finances in the long run. You can do 25 year IBR, but the tax bomb at the end of that would be enormous and really who wants to make student loan payments till their over 50?

Best of luck to you

rangers0412
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby rangers0412 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:07 pm

50,000 a year in NYC is pretty much poor in itself if that is what you are aiming for.. (tldr)

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NYC Law
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:11 pm

Robespierre wrote:The Tea Party says GOVERNMENT shouldn't borrow. I'm saying this INDIVIDUAL should think long and hard before taking on 230K in debt. It's completely different.

Please link to something about the tax bill being dischargeable. I didn't know that. Interesting.

But the point remains: IBR is only a small bit of relief from the oppressiveness of debt. For example, under the facts you posited, you wouldn't get a much reduced monthly payment if you earned 150K. And to the extent the payment was reduced, there's the tax bill to worry about.

No word from Cornell? My fingers are crossed for ya bud.


http://taxes.about.com/od/bankruptcy/qt ... cy_tax.htm

There wouldn't be a tax bill if you continuously made 150k (as unrealistic as that is, but assume so for the hypo), you'd pay it off around 21-22 years. It wouldn't be the way to do it since you'd be better off paying off the debt on a 5-10 year plan, but just saying - with that level of debt the income requirements don't matter.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:14 pm

Flips88 wrote:Just to clarify. You can't expect to make $50,000 for 10 years straight. I know raises are modest in the public sector, but after working a decade in the same job you should see some income growth or you're doing it wrong. So you can assume a starting payment of $420, but let's say by year 10, you're making $65,000 and now your payment is $610 a month. So estimating the total cost at $50,000 is way too low, but it will still be a fraction of the total cost.

As to why no Fordham at sticker. Presumably, Fordham's only market in NYC. I'm not educated on their placement elsewhere, but for the most part you're going to be looking for a job in NYC. I'm sure there are lots of public interest job in NYC, but it's also one of the most competitive markets in the country. You want a good PI job probably? well you're competing against NYU and Columbia kids plus those from other T-14 that want good PI jobs in NYC. I'm not saying it's impossible to find a good PI job in NYC out of Fordham, but realize you'll be facing lots of competition from better schools. Likewise, living in NYC will be tight on a PI budget because of the high COL.

That said, going to Fordham at sticker means you're Big Law, PI, or bust. You can't get a $50,000 per year private job and have good finances in the long run. You can do 25 year IBR, but the tax bomb at the end of that would be enormous and really who wants to make student loan payments till their over 50?

Best of luck to you


It doesn't have to be a PI job for PSLF, it can be any public sector job (ie teacher, gov't employee, garbageman, etc), so at least that takes off some of the pressure since you can probably find something to get the debt forgiven. Of course it wouldn't be ideal to go through all this just to get a non-legal job, but it is an option.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:17 pm

rangers0412 wrote:50,000 a year in NYC is pretty much poor in itself if that is what you are aiming for.. (tldr)


I think it would be fine as a young person, but jesus christ, I can't imagine being in my mid-40s in NYC and making $50k, especially once you start talking about having kids, etc.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Flips88 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:57 pm

NYC Law wrote:
Flips88 wrote:Just to clarify. You can't expect to make $50,000 for 10 years straight. I know raises are modest in the public sector, but after working a decade in the same job you should see some income growth or you're doing it wrong. So you can assume a starting payment of $420, but let's say by year 10, you're making $65,000 and now your payment is $610 a month. So estimating the total cost at $50,000 is way too low, but it will still be a fraction of the total cost.

As to why no Fordham at sticker. Presumably, Fordham's only market in NYC. I'm not educated on their placement elsewhere, but for the most part you're going to be looking for a job in NYC. I'm sure there are lots of public interest job in NYC, but it's also one of the most competitive markets in the country. You want a good PI job probably? well you're competing against NYU and Columbia kids plus those from other T-14 that want good PI jobs in NYC. I'm not saying it's impossible to find a good PI job in NYC out of Fordham, but realize you'll be facing lots of competition from better schools. Likewise, living in NYC will be tight on a PI budget because of the high COL.

That said, going to Fordham at sticker means you're Big Law, PI, or bust. You can't get a $50,000 per year private job and have good finances in the long run. You can do 25 year IBR, but the tax bomb at the end of that would be enormous and really who wants to make student loan payments till their over 50?

Best of luck to you


It doesn't have to be a PI job for PSLF, it can be any public sector job (ie teacher, gov't employee, garbageman, etc), so at least that takes off some of the pressure since you can probably find something to get the debt forgiven. Of course it wouldn't be ideal to go through all this just to get a non-legal job, but it is an option.

Yeah no one wants to be the guy that just got his JD and is teaching high school civics.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:05 pm

Flips88 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:It doesn't have to be a PI job for PSLF, it can be any public sector job (ie teacher, gov't employee, garbageman, etc), so at least that takes off some of the pressure since you can probably find something to get the debt forgiven. Of course it wouldn't be ideal to go through all this just to get a non-legal job, but it is an option.

Yeah no one wants to be the guy that just got his JD and is teaching high school civics.


Ha, my HS Government teacher was a JD. I think he eventually went into politics though.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:24 pm

Surprised this hasn't been said, but OP... what happens if you don't get a job at all?

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:24 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
rarariot wrote:Fordham gives me the best chance to land a job that I will love no matter how much I make.


Can you describe "a job that you will love no matter how much you make," the chances of landing this type of job out of Fordham, and what you will do if you don't get this job?

Also, I'm interested in your answer to this OP.

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NYC Law
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:27 pm

romothesavior wrote:Surprised this hasn't been said, but OP... what happens if you don't get a job at all?


Go back to school for something employable like nursing, or scramble for retail.

As an aside, surely the healthcare field will eventually be how the legal field is now. This many aging people at once with every single person at a community college going into healthcare at one time can't be good.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:29 pm

NYC Law wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Surprised this hasn't been said, but OP... what happens if you don't get a job at all?


Go back to school

I don't think going back to school with a quarter of a million dollars in educational debt is really the brightest plan.

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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby 071816 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:30 pm

You probably shouldn't do it. Convinced?

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Flips88
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Flips88 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:32 pm

NYC Law wrote:
Flips88 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:It doesn't have to be a PI job for PSLF, it can be any public sector job (ie teacher, gov't employee, garbageman, etc), so at least that takes off some of the pressure since you can probably find something to get the debt forgiven. Of course it wouldn't be ideal to go through all this just to get a non-legal job, but it is an option.

Yeah no one wants to be the guy that just got his JD and is teaching high school civics.


Ha, my HS Government teacher was a JD. I think he eventually went into politics though.

I'd entertain the idea when I'm like 50 or 60. Having 2-3 months of vacation would be baller

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NYC Law
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm

romothesavior wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Surprised this hasn't been said, but OP... what happens if you don't get a job at all?


Go back to school

I don't think going back to school with a quarter of a million dollars in educational debt is really the brightest plan.


Compared to what though, eternal unemployment?

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Gecko of Doom
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Gecko of Doom » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:36 pm

romothesavior wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Surprised this hasn't been said, but OP... what happens if you don't get a job at all?


Go back to school

I don't think going back to school with a quarter of a million dollars in educational debt is really the brightest plan.

Neither is going to Fordham at sticker, but OP is planning on doing that. How much more could it hurt, really?

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romothesavior
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:40 pm

NYC Law wrote:Compared to what though, eternal unemployment?

If after 7+ years and 250k+ of debt I were still employed, I don't think I'd be like "I know! I should go back to school!" I'd probably just cut my losses and get a job at the post office or something, or maybe just wait tables for the rest of my life.

One of the biggest problems with law school is that people go there to "escape" the economy. They're unemployed after college, so they think they should just "go back to school" to get a shiny new J.D. Terrible idea.

Anyways, the reason I bring this up is that everyone (especially OP) is just assuming OP will get a legal job. That's no guarantee from Fordham. And this has been mentioned, but it is worth saying again: there is certainly no guarantee of OP getting a PI gig.

Fordham at sticker is a terrible choice. hth

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NYC Law
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:50 pm

romothesavior wrote:
NYC Law wrote:Compared to what though, eternal unemployment?

If after 7+ years and 250k+ of debt I were still employed, I don't think I'd be like "I know! I should go back to school!" I'd probably just cut my losses and get a job at the post office or something, or maybe just wait tables for the rest of my life.

One of the biggest problems with law school is that people go there to "escape" the economy. They're unemployed after college, so they think they should just "go back to school" to get a shiny new J.D. Terrible idea.

Anyways, the reason I bring this up is that everyone (especially OP) is just assuming OP will get a legal job. That's no guarantee from Fordham. And this has been mentioned, but it is worth saying again: there is certainly no guarantee of OP getting a PI gig.

Fordham at sticker is a terrible choice. hth


Well yeah that was my first idea, but I just didn't want to get sucked into the "lol you wont be able to get a non-legal job with a JD" arguments, so I just took your post to mean total unemployment.

And yeah, I agree with everything else you said, except the part about Fordham being a terrible choice. It's pretty much the only choice if you want to be a New York lawyer and couldn't break the upper T14, with sticker being the only option for many. They give out scholarships to 1/3 of full time students, most of which are less than $10k, making the cost still around $200k. It's a huge risk and a legal job is nowhere near guaranteed, but sometimes you just have to take a risk.




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