Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

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rarariot
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Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby rarariot » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:21 am

I invite anyone who thinks this is a bad idea to post your argument as to why I should not go. Please keep the arguments relevant and logical. Other than that, please do not hold anything back.

I promise to follow through and let you know what I decide. You know that you can count on an internet promise :wink: .

I have a less expensive option, it's about half as expensive, but I don't want to make this into a compare and contrast so please keep your arguments against Fordham at sticker.

Editing in some fun facts:

Cost of attendance 2011-2012: $73,573
Next year lets say: $76,000
Year after lets say: $79,000
Total Cost: $228,573

If I make $50,000 with IBR I pay $420 * 120 months = 50,400

Lets hope my salary increases with inflation, but you get the point. At $50,000, a Fordham Law School education is a great value.

50,400 + Loan Forgiveness= Total Cost of Education: 50,400
Last edited by rarariot on Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dr123
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby dr123 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:23 am


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Bildungsroman
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:33 am

a quarter million dollars in debt and a 1 in 4 chance at BigLaw.You like the sound of paying off $250,000 with a $50k/year job?

But "convince me to blank" and "convince me not to blank" threads are rarely productive, as they're typically started by people set in their ways who are looking to flaunt their rejection of common sense.

rarariot
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby rarariot » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:36 am

dr123 wrote:Read this guy's posts
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=82410



I've read them all actually, and I enjoy his writing. His posts really make my hair stand up. However, I would completely abandon the legal field before I were to endure the hell he describes.

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dr123
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby dr123 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:37 am

Dude, if you pound the pavement and get a job in a different field, you could definitely work your way up to a 50k or close job in three years without taking on a soul crushing amount of debt.

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Verity
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Verity » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:39 am

Let's say you go. If you do really well with classes and OCI, you have a decent shot at Biglaw in NYC. This, however, is very rare, since you will likely have to beat out at least 90% of your classmates, and median students from Columbia, NYU, UPenn, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, U Chicago, Cornell......you get my point. If you are certain you can achieve this (hint: you aren't), then by all means, rack up a quarter mil in debt.

Let's say you don't go. You work, study, retake the LSAT, and try again next cycle, applying early. Let's say you do better. Not only do you get better schools, but lots of money from Fordham and its peer schools. Better position.

Don't forget Worthington's Law: More money = Better than
Last edited by Verity on Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

rarariot
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby rarariot » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:40 am

Bildungsroman wrote:a quarter million dollars in debt and a 1 in 4 chance at BigLaw.You like the sound of paying off $250,000 with a $50k/year job?

But "convince me to blank" and "convince me not to blank" threads are rarely productive, as they're typically started by people set in their ways who are looking to flaunt their rejection of common sense.



Well I'll try to make this productive. It honestly does not sound to bad with IBR.

What is your argument against that?

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Ford Prefect
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Ford Prefect » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:42 am

rarariot wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:a quarter million dollars in debt and a 1 in 4 chance at BigLaw.You like the sound of paying off $250,000 with a $50k/year job?

But "convince me to blank" and "convince me not to blank" threads are rarely productive, as they're typically started by people set in their ways who are looking to flaunt their rejection of common sense.



Well I'll try to make this productive. It honestly does not sound to bad with IBR.

What is your argument against that?


Doesn't IBR only reduce your monthly payments? I thought it was LRAP that would forgive the loans, and that was only good for Stafford loans, not GradPlus (which would likely be most of your loans).

rarariot
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby rarariot » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:46 am

Ford Prefect wrote:
rarariot wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:a quarter million dollars in debt and a 1 in 4 chance at BigLaw.You like the sound of paying off $250,000 with a $50k/year job?

But "convince me to blank" and "convince me not to blank" threads are rarely productive, as they're typically started by people set in their ways who are looking to flaunt their rejection of common sense.



Well I'll try to make this productive. It honestly does not sound to bad with IBR.

What is your argument against that?


Doesn't IBR only reduce your monthly payments? I thought it was LRAP that would forgive the loans, and that was only good for Stafford loans, not GradPlus (which would likely be most of your loans).


Way too much misinformation included in the above post.

Here is the truth:

Based on the information you have provided, you would probably qualify for IBR. Your monthly payment would be around $420. If your income rises in the future, then your payments might too.

Reducing your payments through IBR may extend your loan period and cause interest accrual, but any remaining balance — including interest — is forgiven after 25 years of payments (or 10 years for those with Direct loans who work in public service).

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:48 am

rarariot wrote:
Ford Prefect wrote:
rarariot wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:a quarter million dollars in debt and a 1 in 4 chance at BigLaw.You like the sound of paying off $250,000 with a $50k/year job?

But "convince me to blank" and "convince me not to blank" threads are rarely productive, as they're typically started by people set in their ways who are looking to flaunt their rejection of common sense.



Well I'll try to make this productive. It honestly does not sound to bad with IBR.

What is your argument against that?


Doesn't IBR only reduce your monthly payments? I thought it was LRAP that would forgive the loans, and that was only good for Stafford loans, not GradPlus (which would likely be most of your loans).


Way too much misinformation included in the above post.

Here is the truth:

Based on the information you have provided, you would probably qualify for IBR. Your monthly payment would be around $420. If your income rises in the future, then your payments might too.

Reducing your payments through IBR may extend your loan period and cause interest accrual, but any remaining balance — including interest — is forgiven after 25 years of payments (or 10 years for those with Direct loans who work in public service).

But if your pay sucks, you're likely making little to no impact on the principal, and when the loans are forgiven after 25 years (a long time to be building interest on a quarter million bucks) you have to pay taxes on the forgiven loans, which fucks you.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:50 am

rarariot wrote:Reducing your payments through IBR may extend your loan period and cause interest accrual, but any remaining balance — including interest — is forgiven after 25 years of payments (or 10 years for those with Direct loans who work in public service).


Direct loans /=/ GradPlus, right? If I'm reading that right, then only the Direct loans get forgiven after ten years, but you're still on the hook for the remainder?

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Helmholtz
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:51 am

Bildungsroman wrote:But "convince me to blank" and "convince me not to blank" threads are rarely productive, as they're typically started by people set in their ways who are looking to flaunt their rejection of common sense.


+1

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:52 am

Helmholtz wrote:
rarariot wrote:Reducing your payments through IBR may extend your loan period and cause interest accrual, but any remaining balance — including interest — is forgiven after 25 years of payments (or 10 years for those with Direct loans who work in public service).


Direct loans /=/ GradPlus, right? If I'm reading that right, then only the Direct loans get forgiven after ten years, but you're still on the hook for the remainder?

Direct loans include Stafford and Grad Plus loans

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Ford Prefect
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Ford Prefect » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:52 am

You also made no mention of wanting to do public service in the OP.

"Misinformation" suggests I was trying to mislead you, which I wasn't. I think, though, at over $200k in loans, you'd be foolish to hope for IBR/BigLaw to be able to make payments at a school that's not AT LEAST t14.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Lawquacious » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:53 am

rarariot wrote:
Ford Prefect wrote:
rarariot wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:a quarter million dollars in debt and a 1 in 4 chance at BigLaw.You like the sound of paying off $250,000 with a $50k/year job?

But "convince me to blank" and "convince me not to blank" threads are rarely productive, as they're typically started by people set in their ways who are looking to flaunt their rejection of common sense.



Well I'll try to make this productive. It honestly does not sound to bad with IBR.

What is your argument against that?


Doesn't IBR only reduce your monthly payments? I thought it was LRAP that would forgive the loans, and that was only good for Stafford loans, not GradPlus (which would likely be most of your loans).


Way too much misinformation included in the above post.

Here is the truth:

Based on the information you have provided, you would probably qualify for IBR. Your monthly payment would be around $420. If your income rises in the future, then your payments might too.

Reducing your payments through IBR may extend your loan period and cause interest accrual, but any remaining balance — including interest — is forgiven after 25 years of payments (or 10 years for those with Direct loans who work in public service).


Bildungsroman basically beat me to it, but this is a slightly different point: even if he/she has 10 year forgiveness option through qualified position, that means that for the first 10 years as a practicing attorney the actual yearly take home will amount to something like 30-40k. So it can be a decent option, but it is basically a commitment to being (relatively) poor. Of course a higher paying job may come along, but then the forgiveness won't happen at 10 yrs, and the interest would have been building up quite a bit. This is my current understanding at least.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ford Prefect
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Ford Prefect » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:53 am

Bildungsroman wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
rarariot wrote:Reducing your payments through IBR may extend your loan period and cause interest accrual, but any remaining balance — including interest — is forgiven after 25 years of payments (or 10 years for those with Direct loans who work in public service).


Direct loans /=/ GradPlus, right? If I'm reading that right, then only the Direct loans get forgiven after ten years, but you're still on the hook for the remainder?

Direct loans include Stafford and Grad Plus loans


Yeah, I found this after "misinforming":

http://www.ibrinfo.org/what.vp.html

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:54 am

rarariot wrote:



I've read them all actually, and I enjoy his writing. His posts really make my hair stand up. However, I would completely abandon the legal field before I were to endure the hell he describes.

Well, you wouldn't be able to abandon the legal field before spending all this money, and if you're funding it with loans you can's just say "LOL J/K" and wipe the slate clean on your credit after you can only find shitlaw jobs.

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dr123
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby dr123 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:57 am

rarariot wrote:
dr123 wrote:Read this guy's posts
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=82410



I've read them all actually, and I enjoy his writing. His posts really make my hair stand up. However, I would completely abandon the legal field before I were to endure the hell he describes.


Have fun trying to find a non legal job with a JD on your resume. You're gonna get a lot of LOLWUTS

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Ford Prefect
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Ford Prefect » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:00 am

dr123 wrote:
rarariot wrote:



I've read them all actually, and I enjoy his writing. His posts really make my hair stand up. However, I would completely abandon the legal field before I were to endure the hell he describes.


Have fun trying to find a non legal job with a JD on your resume. You're gonna get a lot of LOLWUTS


Well, I'd think you might have some luck if you have a significant experience in the field you're looking in. But then why bother getting a law degree?

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dr123
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby dr123 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:01 am

Ford Prefect wrote:
dr123 wrote:Have fun trying to find a non legal job with a JD on your resume. You're gonna get a lot of LOLWUTS


Well, I'd think you might have some luck if you have a significant experience in the field you're looking in. But then why bother getting a law degree?


Thats what I was saying to begin with. With some hard work its definitely reasonable to work your way up to a 50k/yr job with a Bachelor's degree

rarariot
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby rarariot » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:02 am

Doesn't IBR only reduce your monthly payments? I thought it was LRAP that would forgive the loans, and that was only good for Stafford loans, not GradPlus (which would likely be most of your loans).[/quote]

Way too much misinformation included in the above post.

Here is the truth:

Based on the information you have provided, you would probably qualify for IBR. Your monthly payment would be around $420. If your income rises in the future, then your payments might too.

Reducing your payments through IBR may extend your loan period and cause interest accrual, but any remaining balance — including interest — is forgiven after 25 years of payments (or 10 years for those with Direct loans who work in public service).[/quote]
But if your pay sucks, you're likely making little to no impact on the principal, and when the loans are forgiven after 25 years (a long time to be building interest on a quarter million bucks) you have to pay taxes on the forgiven loans, which fucks you.[/quote]

Not so fast:

The problem with your argument is that you are leaving out the possibility of me qualifying for the ten year forgiveness which clears you of the tax burden. If I qualify for the ten year forgiveness then I'm in the clear and you are 100% incorrect.

If I do not qualify for the ten year program, I am supremely confident that the incredible hypocrisy of forgiving a large loan and then making someone claim that forgiveness as income will be solved in the next 25 years.

Here is my evidence:

Will forgiven loan amounts be taxed as income?

The U.S. Department of the Treasury determined that debt forgiven through PSLF is not considered taxable income under current law. That means that when you qualify for PSLF, you won't get slapped with a huge tax bill.

Unfortunately, the same good news doesn't extend to debt forgiven through IBR. In response, Congressman Sandy Levin (D-MI) is leading a bipartisan effort to ensure that borrowers who qualify for loan forgiveness through IBR (and Income Contingent Repayment) get the same treatment. Responsible borrowers with modest incomes shouldn't have to pay potentially crippling taxes on forgiven student loans. We are hopeful that this issue will be resolved before any borrowers qualify for forgiveness through IBR. We'll continue to work on this issue and keep you informed. Urge your representatives to support H.R. 2492. Learn more about the bill.

rarariot
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby rarariot » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:03 am

dr123 wrote:
Ford Prefect wrote:
dr123 wrote:Have fun trying to find a non legal job with a JD on your resume. You're gonna get a lot of LOLWUTS


Well, I'd think you might have some luck if you have a significant experience in the field you're looking in. But then why bother getting a law degree?


Thats what I was saying to begin with. With some hard work its definitely reasonable to work your way up to a 50k/yr job with a Bachelor's degree


For some people it's not all about money.

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Ford Prefect
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Ford Prefect » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:03 am

dr123 wrote:
Ford Prefect wrote:
dr123 wrote:Have fun trying to find a non legal job with a JD on your resume. You're gonna get a lot of LOLWUTS


Well, I'd think you might have some luck if you have a significant experience in the field you're looking in. But then why bother getting a law degree?


Thats what I was saying to begin with. With some hard work its definitely reasonable to work your way up to a 50k/yr job with a Bachelor's degree


Reading failure on my part. I agree completely.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:04 am

Bildungsroman wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
rarariot wrote:Reducing your payments through IBR may extend your loan period and cause interest accrual, but any remaining balance — including interest — is forgiven after 25 years of payments (or 10 years for those with Direct loans who work in public service).


Direct loans /=/ GradPlus, right? If I'm reading that right, then only the Direct loans get forgiven after ten years, but you're still on the hook for the remainder?

Direct loans include Stafford and Grad Plus loans


My mistake. I forget all the different names for things and how they work roughly five minutes after filling out my finaid forms for the year.

I vote for OP going to Fordham and being as poor as possible for a decade+, in an effort to work the system and get loans forgiven.

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Ford Prefect
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Re: Convince me out of going to Fordham at sticker.

Postby Ford Prefect » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:05 am

rarariot wrote:
dr123 wrote:
Ford Prefect wrote:
dr123 wrote:Have fun trying to find a non legal job with a JD on your resume. You're gonna get a lot of LOLWUTS


Well, I'd think you might have some luck if you have a significant experience in the field you're looking in. But then why bother getting a law degree?


Thats what I was saying to begin with. With some hard work its definitely reasonable to work your way up to a 50k/yr job with a Bachelor's degree


For some people it's not all about money.


So you want to go to Fordham. Go to Fordham.




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