Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

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areyouinsane
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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby areyouinsane » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:13 pm

What are the few alums you know doing? I would advise against both schools, especially if you don't know what you want to be a lawyer for. Its way too expensive to be setting off for law school when you dont have a clear idea why you are going.


I know about half a dozen Crooklyn alums from my days in the sewers of personal injury/doc review in NYC.

One got canned about 2 yrs ago from a small plaintiff's personal injury firm that closed up shop (as I've said before, the little "Joe Schmoe Esq." places that handled fender benders, whiplash & such are closing down left & right- they keep making the "threshold law" more anti-plaintiff each year:

http://www.articlesbase.com/personal-in ... 96684.html

The kid from the PI shop had 6 yrs experience and lots of trials under his belt, but best he could score w/ his resume was 60 K a year at shithole "firm" Lester Schwab (we all call it Lester Slob since they crank out very sloppy work - it's a real TTT boiler room). Last time we spoke he was bartending over at Rue-B in the East Village, and has no plans to ever return to law. On a good Saturday night he can make $400 cash at the bar, so why would he want to churn shitpaper 12 hours a day at some ID mill for what works out to about $20 an hour? He also does a few court appearances a week as a per diem for another shitlaw firm, which he is always chasing to get paid for (a very common per diem problem. I myself made the mistake of covering a traffic court appearance in NJ for a solo two weeks ago, and just found out my $250 check bounced- now dood is not answering his phone. Oh well.

Another very good friend of mine is an 2006 Crooklyn alum. He has done nothing but doc review since graduation, as almost no permanent jobs are available that would pay the debt load he has (roughly 90 K). He has been scraping by on what's left of doc review and is thinking of going back to school for graphic design (he was an Ivy League undergrad, and a "real Ivy" too, not Cornell). He hopes to milk some of those connections and get a job as a web developer or something like that.

Yet another Brooklyn alum was similar to me: worked doc review for 2 years, then did a 2 year stint at a gutter insurance defense dump which paid a whopping 45 K a year. Then that firm folded up and he went back to doc review. Now he's working w/ a family friend on L.I. who has a shitlaw solo shop doing DWI defense and other garbage. He hates it and now his wife is pregnant, so he may just give up and work for his dad who owns a business resurfacing flat roofs (that rubberized coating shit). Trouble is that his father is still "proud" of his TTT joke JD, and thinks there are pots of gold in law yet to come if only he "pays his dues." But the dood got out in 2005 so I think he's pretty much all paid up by now. Better to pick up a tar mop and start learning that trade, which is in high demand, unlike a laughable "JD" from Brooklyn.

I know a gal who got out in I think 2003 who works in-house at an insurance company and does OK- I think around 75 K. But that type of cut n' paste crap gets old really fast, and 75 K is pretty much top whack for dummy insurance defense work. Understand that there is no "partnership track" at most mom n' pop ID mills. Most of the partners are older guys who had or have family connections at a large carrier like State Farm or Liberty Mutual, and get files that way. There's really no "new" business to get since most small carriers have long since been gobbled up & merged into the big boyz like Geico, Allstate, Progressive, etc. Used to be you could sometimes "steal" enough files from certain adjusters you got friendly with and go solo that way. Not anymore. All "counsel" (if that's what you want to call ID lol) decisions are made at corporate level, and more & more of this refuse is being done in-house where you only need about 2 lawyers and 3000 paralegals to cut n' paste the crap together. I interviewed for in-house at Allstate in NJ and was offered a whopping 42 K a year, and that's with almost 2 yrs experience (including 2 jury trials first chair) on plaintiff's side under me belt.

And for the clowns who don't believe my stories about King's Civil and the absolute 3rd world toilet that practicing there is, just take a walk over to 141 Livingston Street (about 3 blocks from Crookyn Law) and ask some of the lawyers there whether law school is a good idea. Ask them if they recommend law school as a wise "career" move. As I've said, the "ten cent tour" of that place would scare anyone with half a brain away from all the NY area TTT's.

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AssociateX
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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby AssociateX » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:16 pm

I graduated from Brooklyn. Half my section lost their scholarships because of the curve. My best friend had a 163 LSAT and a high GPA from NYU undergrad. Her 1L GPA waa a 2.7 thanks to one C- in Con Law. She lost a full scholly and had to pay sticker for the remaining 2 years. The real average starting salary for a BLS grad below top 1/4 is really 35-55K. I work in house for an insurance company, the partners at my firm are pulling in 100-120k (jr partners). I have been practicing law since 2005 and with my bonus and some cash I earned from a side job, am poised to pull in $105k this year.

Personally i would choose the scholarship even though you stand a chance of losing it. Fordham at sticker price is DEFINITELY NOT WORTH IT. Your goal is to have the lowest debt possible and its not like Fordham is on the same level as Columbia or NYU.

Any other questions, feel free to send me a private message. I am not on this board that much.

areyouinsane
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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby areyouinsane » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:42 pm

I graduated from Brooklyn. Half my section lost their scholarships because of the curve.


Gotta LOL at the "expert" 0 L's on here who swear up & down that there's no "scholly stacking" going on at these TTT's because they were told that during the sales pitch/tour.

Do you really think a laughingstock TTToilet like Crooklyn could afford to hand out that type of $$$ so generously and let everyone keep it? This cesspool pays it's dean north of 500 K a year and most tenured profs rake in 200-250 K. It takes a LOT of kids paying full boat to keep a scam like this afloat and all those hogs nice n' fat.

The schools know damn well that almost no one will have the sack to bail after 1 L even if they lose the dough. By then you're kind of "invested' in this farce and have made friends, etc and will see your personal JD disaster thru come hell or high water.

Fordham is certainly nothing special either, esp. in this shit economy. Miss top 25% and you'll be scrounging for shitlaw table scraps/doc review hell with the NYLS, 'Bozo, and Crooklyn crewz. Back in the day Fordham was kinda an "NYU-lite", but not anymore.

OP is better off skipping lawschool altogether. He can either (hopefully) keep the schooly & pay what a Brooklyn JD is worth (i.e, nothing) or pony up full boat for Fordham which isn't remotely worth it under any circumstance.

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Bronx Bum
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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby Bronx Bum » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:02 am

areyouinsane wrote:
At least this guy is going for free.


The ? is will he have the sack to walk away after 1 L if he loses the scholly? This comical TTT also-ran isn't worth paying one red cent of your own $$$ for. Understand that if you're not one of the dozen or so kids who get OCI/Biglaw you'll be shopping an embarrassingly lousy TTT joke degree around the most competitive, saturated legal market in the world.

HTH


You're right. I wouldn't pay a penny for that school. That's all I mean though. Maybe he can make a shitlaw life for himself without the debt if he keeps the scholarship. I go to Fordham, I'm going to be about 60k in debt when it's all said and done and each day I think about creating a time machine so I can undo the destruction I've done to my life. I work full time at a small firm and I see all of those things that you post about canal street offices, etc. It's 100% true. There was a lawyer in court the other day with paint on his suit pants and he looked like he was seriously ill. I hate that this is my fate. I envy that guy who decided not to go to Fordham for any $ at all.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby Bronx Bum » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:03 am

bigkahuna2020 wrote:
areyouinsane wrote:
At least this guy is going for free.


The ? is will he have the sack to walk away after 1 L if he loses the scholly? This comical TTT also-ran isn't worth paying one red cent of your own $$$ for. Understand that if you're not one of the dozen or so kids who get OCI/Biglaw you'll be shopping an embarrassingly lousy TTT joke degree around the most competitive, saturated legal market in the world.

HTH


Or working for city government. Which many BK grads do.

Actually, if you were interested in working for city gov't/legal aid, this is a GREAT opportunity for the OP to go to BLS.


LOL LEGAL AID? They haven't hired for 4 years now haha.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby MrAnon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:20 am

Yeah I love "city government". What exactly does that mean? DA's? Okay they hire 4 or 5 from Brooklyn each year. Other government departments? You need experience. And you need people to retire. Government is more assuredly NOT hiring right now. The NYC law department is fairly prestigious; takes BIGLAW refugees; not looking for Brooklyn grads who struck out at OCI.

areyouinsane
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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby areyouinsane » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:39 am

Yeah I love "city government". What exactly does that mean? DA's? Okay they hire 4 or 5 from Brooklyn each year. Other government departments? You need experience. And you need people to retire. Government is more assuredly NOT hiring right now. The NYC law department is fairly prestigious; takes BIGLAW refugees; not looking for Brooklyn grads who struck out at OCI.


This is 100% correct. Let me add that working for ANY of the NYC DA's offices coming out of a diploma mill like Brooklyn is a pipedream. These places don't hire a lot of people, and the amount of kids applying for these jobs is astronomical. I had a buddy who was a Bronx native, had a 3.4 GPA, interned both 1 L and 2 L summer at Bronx DA, and came from a law enforcement family (dad and grandpa both NYPD brass).

He got dinged after the the third round of interviews. The dood just couldn't believe it, but again these jobs are hyper-competitive, much more so than even Biglaw.

As for the NYC Law Dept, those jobs are also VERY hard to come by, even when you have experience. For example, I became very friendly with an adversary of mine who worked at NYC Law Dept. in tort defense division. We picked a few juries together and I settled a lot of cases w/ him. I gave him my resume to fwd to his boss (at the time I had 1.5 yrs of plaintiff injury experience and 2 jury trials under my belt, plus a lot of jury selections where we settled cases prior to opening statements).

I never got an interview as his boss said they wanted 3 yrs experience minimum. And this job only pays 55 K a year.

A friend of mine who's a 'Bozo grad got hired a couple years ago for the NYC Dept of Children's Services. She had 4 yrs experience at a family law firm though, and was also Top 5% + Law Review. She started at a whopping 52 K. Only reason she took it was the hours are sweet (9-5) and she lives in Bklyn Heights about 10 minute walk from the courthouse. Also her husband has a lot of $$$ so the salary is just "extra" $$$ to them.

On that note, for most TTT'ers law will never be anything more than a side job/ 2nd income type gig. The saturation level at this point is staggering, and literally beyond your worst nightmare.

If Brooklyn is best school you get into, it's prolly best to admit this industry just isn't your thing. Either retake the LSAT and shoot for NYU or another T-14, or don't go at all.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby am060459 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:45 am

i think this is an easy decision. take the money and enjoy BLS.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby am060459 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:06 am

areyouinsane wrote:
Yeah I love "city government". What exactly does that mean? DA's? Okay they hire 4 or 5 from Brooklyn each year. Other government departments? You need experience. And you need people to retire. Government is more assuredly NOT hiring right now. The NYC law department is fairly prestigious; takes BIGLAW refugees; not looking for Brooklyn grads who struck out at OCI.


This is 100% correct. Let me add that working for ANY of the NYC DA's offices coming out of a diploma mill like Brooklyn is a pipedream. These places don't hire a lot of people, and the amount of kids applying for these jobs is astronomical. I had a buddy who was a Bronx native, had a 3.4 GPA, interned both 1 L and 2 L summer at Bronx DA, and came from a law enforcement family (dad and grandpa both NYPD brass).

He got dinged after the the third round of interviews. The dood just couldn't believe it, but again these jobs are hyper-competitive, much more so than even Biglaw.

As for the NYC Law Dept, those jobs are also VERY hard to come by, even when you have experience. For example, I became very friendly with an adversary of mine who worked at NYC Law Dept. in tort defense division. We picked a few juries together and I settled a lot of cases w/ him. I gave him my resume to fwd to his boss (at the time I had 1.5 yrs of plaintiff injury experience and 2 jury trials under my belt, plus a lot of jury selections where we settled cases prior to opening statements).

I never got an interview as his boss said they wanted 3 yrs experience minimum. And this job only pays 55 K a year.

A friend of mine who's a 'Bozo grad got hired a couple years ago for the NYC Dept of Children's Services. She had 4 yrs experience at a family law firm though, and was also Top 5% + Law Review. She started at a whopping 52 K. Only reason she took it was the hours are sweet (9-5) and she lives in Bklyn Heights about 10 minute walk from the courthouse. Also her husband has a lot of $$$ so the salary is just "extra" $$$ to them.

On that note, for most TTT'ers law will never be anything more than a side job/ 2nd income type gig. The saturation level at this point is staggering, and literally beyond your worst nightmare.

If Brooklyn is best school you get into, it's prolly best to admit this industry just isn't your thing. Either retake the LSAT and shoot for NYU or another T-14, or don't go at all.


dont listen to this turd.

you got into BLS with 52k a year! that's a law degree at a respectable institution with little to no cost. its obviously no NYU or CLS, but BLS does hold its own. I work at a V5, and we have a GOOD amount from BLS. Also, I know of in house attorneys at multiple clients from BLS. i think BLS is your best option.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby Bronx Bum » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:15 am

dont listen to this turd.

you got into BLS with 52k a year! that's a law degree at a respectable institution with little to no cost. its obviously no NYU or CLS, but BLS does hold its own. I work at a V5, and we have a GOOD amount from BLS. Also, I know of in house attorneys at multiple clients from BLS.i think BLS is your best option.[/quote]

FTFY

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby am060459 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:23 am

Bronx Bum wrote:dont listen to this turd.

you got into BLS with 52k a year! that's a law degree at a respectable institution with little to no cost. its obviously no NYU or CLS, but BLS does hold its own. I work at a V5, and we have a GOOD amount from BLS. Also, I know of in house attorneys at multiple clients from BLS. i think BLS is your best option.


FTFY[/quote]


FTFY

areyouinsane
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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby areyouinsane » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:18 am

I know of in house attorneys at multiple clients from BLS.



Problem is, they are all probably class of 1957 grads ROTFL!

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby MrAnon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:41 pm

I know a BLS grad at my biglaw firm!

So what? If he is under the age of 35 he'll you that he is extremely to be where he is at, and that it required both hard work AND luck to make it. He'll tell you he knows people who he thought did just as well as he did in school but finished tenths of a point behind him in GPA and got shut out of OCI. He'll tell you he is having trouble lateraling out of the firm because his school isn't such a big deal.

areyouinsane
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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby areyouinsane » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:07 pm

He'll tell you he is having trouble lateraling out of the firm because his school isn't such a big deal.



That's another problem with going to a pathetic shitstain TTToilet like Crooklyn: even if you do score the biglaw gig outta OCI, it's not easy to lateral or move on b/c headhunters generally only work with Top 14'ers.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby AffordablePrep » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:37 pm

I love reading are you insane's story. I'm sure they're all true, but it's funny to hear how "tragic" 60k a yr is if your parents make 20k a year combined. 60k a yr is not great with loans involved, but when homelessness isn't an options and you can afford a cast if your kid breaks their leg, your life is not a lifetime TV movie. However, it does certainly beg the question of whether law school is worth it for a bright competent kid paying significant $ at Brooklyn.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby MrAnon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:41 pm

60K in NYC is 32K in pretty much any other major metro area off the coast. So what are you talking about?

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby AffordablePrep » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:52 pm

MrAnon wrote:60K in NYC is 32K in pretty much any other major metro area off the coast. So what are you talking about?

Dude my parents made 20k combined last yr in NYC with no government assistance while supporting two little girls. Their life sucks, and my mom sobs on the phone with me nightly out of fear, but they are breathing. 60k isn't a sob story. These TTT lawyers generally aren't good at law. If they afford cream cheese on rye bread they should be grateful.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby MrAnon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:57 pm

So attending the 3rd or 4th best school of its kind in a city of 8 law schools is the path out? Generally not good at law isnt meaningful. No one straight out of school is good at law. Many are not good at law for years. Some judges are not good at law. Its a supply/demand issue. Many more new lawyers than jobs.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:01 pm

MrAnon wrote:So attending the 3rd or 4th best school of its kind in a city of 8 law schools is the path out? Generally not good at law isnt meaningful. No one straight out of school is good at law. Many are not good at law for years. Some judges are not good at law.


Egregious anti-Clarence Thomas trolling.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby AffordablePrep » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:50 pm

MrAnon wrote:So attending the 3rd or 4th best school of its kind in a city of 8 law schools is the path out? Generally not good at law isnt meaningful. No one straight out of school is good at law. Many are not good at law for years. Some judges are not good at law. Its a supply/demand issue. Many more new lawyers than jobs.

You're leaving the scope. I would not advise attending Brooklyn. I was just saying complaining about 60k, even with a 100k loan shows how fortunate you people really are. You need to commute from queens? Boo hoo hoo.

By not great at law, I meant that the average student at Brooklyn won't be as intelligent as the average student at NYU/Columbia. The LSAT does measure IQ to at least some extent, and if you score 50% on reading comprehension, I don't see how you're ever going to be a great lawyer. I don't mean to say that just because you score 100% means you'll be a good one. I just mean the 50% guy likely won't be. The very fact these people have shitlaw jobs and don't starve, and may even be able to afford formula for a kid means that the legal field is not totally dead - just that law school might not be a get rich easy card anymore.

The fact that 40-50% of TTT ever made 100k out of school shows that the legal field was out of whack - not that 5% making that is out of whack.

I'd still advise Brooklyn over Fordham as every law school gives the same first year curriculum so if OP can't crack the top 40% at Bklyn, why can he do it at Fordham? So if he loses his full ride he can drop out with little to no debt.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby lawschoolROCKS22 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:27 pm

Like everyone else has said, take the money and run. If you don't finish in the top 40%, drop out. Paying sticker right now for a school like Fordham as our country is about to go back into a recession (did the 2008/2009 one ever really end?) would be insane.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby MrAnon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:34 pm

lawschoolROCKS22 wrote:Like everyone else has said, take the money and run. If you don't finish in the top 40%, drop out. Paying sticker right now for a school like Fordham as our country is about to go back into a recession (did the 2008/2009 one ever really end?) would be insane.


He meant to say 3%.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby lawschoolROCKS22 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:42 pm

MrAnon wrote:
lawschoolROCKS22 wrote:Like everyone else has said, take the money and run. If you don't finish in the top 40%, drop out. Paying sticker right now for a school like Fordham as our country is about to go back into a recession (did the 2008/2009 one ever really end?) would be insane.


He meant to say 3%.


I thought that OP had to be in the top 40% to keep the full-ride (which is why I said top 40%). However, a huge portion of people in the top 40% won't be able to line up a full-time, non-temporary job that requires a JD for after graduation. If OP is interested in Biglaw, OP will really need to be top 5% from BLS or roughly top 10-15% from Fordham right now.

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby MrAnon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:51 pm

lawschoolROCKS22 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
lawschoolROCKS22 wrote:Like everyone else has said, take the money and run. If you don't finish in the top 40%, drop out. Paying sticker right now for a school like Fordham as our country is about to go back into a recession (did the 2008/2009 one ever really end?) would be insane.


He meant to say 3%.


I thought that OP had to be in the top 40% to keep the full-ride (which is why I said top 40%). However, a huge portion of people in the top 40% won't be able to line up a full-time, non-temporary job that requires a JD for after graduation. If OP is interested in Biglaw, OP will really need to be top 5% from BLS or roughly top 10-15% from Fordham right now.



It reminds me of receiving a giant scholarship to attend school to be a milkman. the world doesnt need milkmen, let alone milkmen from the 5th best school in town. the pay is artificially low because so many people are graduating from milkmen academies each year but no new jobs are opening up in the field. So at the end of the day, is it even worth the time?

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Re: Fordham(Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law 52k per year Scholarship

Postby lawschoolROCKS22 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:58 pm

MrAnon wrote:
lawschoolROCKS22 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
lawschoolROCKS22 wrote:Like everyone else has said, take the money and run. If you don't finish in the top 40%, drop out. Paying sticker right now for a school like Fordham as our country is about to go back into a recession (did the 2008/2009 one ever really end?) would be insane.


He meant to say 3%.


I thought that OP had to be in the top 40% to keep the full-ride (which is why I said top 40%). However, a huge portion of people in the top 40% won't be able to line up a full-time, non-temporary job that requires a JD for after graduation. If OP is interested in Biglaw, OP will really need to be top 5% from BLS or roughly top 10-15% from Fordham right now.



It reminds me of receiving a giant scholarship to attend school to be a milkman. the world doesnt need milkmen, let alone milkmen from the 5th best school in town. the pay is artificially low because so many people are graduating from milkmen academies each year but no new jobs are opening up in the field. So at the end of the day, is it even worth the time?


This is a great point. I was originally just thinking of this from a financial standpoint. OP also runs the risk of going through 3 miserable/stressful years of law school only to graduate with mediocre job prospects. Think about all of the things that you could do during those 3 years. You could go live in a ski town and go snowboarding/partying a lot. You could join the Peace Corps and see parts of the world that most people in this country will never see. You could learn a trade that is currently in high demand by employers. Etc...




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