Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

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Rutgers ($) or Fordham (sticker)

Rutgers
21
68%
Fordham
10
32%
 
Total votes: 31

aei0u
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Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby aei0u » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:12 am

Hi all --

Yesterday, I was VERY surprisingly offered a spot at Fordham after being on the waitlist for some time - in fact, I almost told them to just pull me from it. I had already put my seat deposit in for Rutgers Newark, where they offered me an $18,000/year merit scholarship (and I am a NJ resident, so I'd essentially be paying $5,000 for tuition). Fordham wants the $1000 seat deposit by next Friday and so I need to make a decision rather quickly.

There are several factors to consider, but I'm not sure how much weight to put on each one. My main concers are money (of course), housing, and probability of work during summers and after finishing (aka pay for school). In terms of money, my parents have offered me a bit of help and I have saved up a pretty big chunk of money from working between college and now, but Fordham will still set me WAY back. Fordham's housing notifications were sent out last week, so I doubt I will be able to get anything from them and will have to find my own housing (I don't mind living in Hoboken or Jersey City or Newark and commuting via Path) while Rutgers is already processing my housing request. And in terms of job opportunities, I've been getting very conflicting advice. Some say Fordham opens a lot of doors that Rutgers cannot and others say that Rutgers has a very good network especially if I don't mind staying in New Jersey.

I am very much conflicted since Rutgers offered me such a huge chunk of money, finding housing on my own is a giant headache, and I'm not sure if the difference in the caliber of the schools is worth the money.


Thank you all in advance!

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:41 am

You would be out of your mind to pay full price for Fordham.

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Perch
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby Perch » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:55 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:You would be out of your mind to pay full price for Fordham.


I think a lot of it has to do with if you want to stay in Jersey. If you want NYC BigLaw above all else, Fordham at least gives you a shot at it.

In regards to paying full price for Fordham, it is going to set you back obviously. However, I don't think someone would be out of their mind to pay full price in this situation as Aberzcombie suggests. Fordham is stingy with money as it is. Even for someone with competitive numbers above medians they don't really throw out much cash, nor do they really negotiate. If you can go to a peer school with $$$, yeah that probably makes sense, but Rutgers and Fordham aren't even close to being peer schools.

Fordham sells itself on being the third best school in the biggest legal market. You buy the increased opportunity for a reason. It's a question of whether you want to/are prepared to take that risk.

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NYC Law
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:05 am

Fordham only gives aid to 1/3 of incoming students, many of which are $5-10k, so at least you'll be in good company - pretty much everyone else will be 'out of their minds' as well.

That said, go to Rutgers. You're from NJ, it looks like you wouldn't mind staying there, and Rutgers is very well respected in the state. Plus it will be VERY cheap. After looking at your personal situation, you would be out of your mind to pay sticker at Fordham.

aei0u
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby aei0u » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:37 am

NYC Law wrote:That said, go to Rutgers. You're from NJ, it looks like you wouldn't mind staying there, and Rutgers is very well respected in the state. Plus it will be VERY cheap. After looking at your personal situation, you would be out of your mind to pay sticker at Fordham.


But if I don't want to stay in NJ and would rather work in NYC, would Rutgers still be a good option? Basically, how much harder will I have to bust my ass to make up for the gap between Fordham and Rutgers?

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crossarmant
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby crossarmant » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:21 am

Yes, there's a big gap with placement stats. Fordham has around a 30% NLJ250 placement rate, whereas Rutgers has around a 15%; but you can't help but ogle at the allure of going to Rutgers for a tenth the price of Fordham. It really depends on what you want to do and where you want to live, but I'd say RU-N.

aei0u
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby aei0u » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:47 am

I suppose this is a double-edged sword, but I really am unsure as to what I want to do. I've worked in both the public sector and private sector and have enjoyed both experiences immensely. I'm very concerned that I will be kicking myself in three years if I choose Rutgers and then end up wanting to do BigLaw and can't get a job. However, I'm also concerned that if I choose Fordham and want to do something that doesn't pay as well, I will be so far over my head I won't be able to get out of debt.

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mrtoren
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby mrtoren » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:21 pm

aei0u wrote:I suppose this is a double-edged sword, but I really am unsure as to what I want to do. I've worked in both the public sector and private sector and have enjoyed both experiences immensely. I'm very concerned that I will be kicking myself in three years if I choose Rutgers and then end up wanting to do BigLaw and can't get a job. However, I'm also concerned that if I choose Fordham and want to do something that doesn't pay as well, I will be so far over my head I won't be able to get out of debt.

Or you may choose Fordham, get into something that does pay well, and still find yourself drowning in debt. You can find Rutgers grads at a lot of NYC firms, but they're always the ones who graduated at the top of their class. Regardless, NJ firms do pay well. The median starting salary in the private sector for RU-N grads is $135k according to USNWR. Is that figure altered? Probably, but only about the same as every other school that lists that information.

You're about 10 miles from NYC..don't be foolishly stubborn by taking on life-altering debt to make up those few miles.

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bk1
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:28 pm

mrtoren wrote:The median starting salary in the private sector for RU-N grads is $135k according to USNWR. Is that figure altered? Probably, but only about the same as every other school that lists that information.


That bolded is simplistic and wrong. It is based off the percentage of people reporting salary. At Rutgers this is about 45% whereas at Fordham it is 80%.

This is not to say I'm advocating Fordham here. Fordham is going to cost $210,000 worth of debt whereas Rutgers is going to cost you $65,000. It really makes no sense to go to Fordham unless NJ is last place on earth you want to be.

scammedhard
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby scammedhard » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:16 pm

Fordham at sticker is too risky and not a valid option, IMO. I think the real choice is between Rutgers Newark (almost free) and not going/retaking/reapplying. If you are OK with the career prospects of Rutgers Newark, go; otherwise, retake/reapply.

EDIT: The career prospects of Rutgers Newark are NOT properly described on its website or USNWR.

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NYC Law
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:33 pm

bk1 wrote:
mrtoren wrote:The median starting salary in the private sector for RU-N grads is $135k according to USNWR. Is that figure altered? Probably, but only about the same as every other school that lists that information.


That bolded is simplistic and wrong. It is based off the percentage of people reporting salary. At Rutgers this is about 45% whereas at Fordham it is 80%.

This is not to say I'm advocating Fordham here. Fordham is going to cost $210,000 worth of debt whereas Rutgers is going to cost you $65,000. It really makes no sense to go to Fordham unless NJ is last place on earth you want to be.


Isn't Fordham like 94% reporting salary? It's absurdly high for c/o 2009. (But that doesn't take into account those not reporting employment status, which is like 4-6% IIRC)

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Robespierre
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby Robespierre » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:42 pm

aei0u wrote:Hi all --

There are several factors to consider, but I'm not sure how much weight to put on each one. My main concers are money (of course), housing, and probability of work during summers and after finishing (aka pay for school). In terms of money, my parents have offered me a bit of help and I have saved up a pretty big chunk of money from working between college and now, but Fordham will still set me WAY back. Fordham's housing notifications were sent out last week, so I doubt I will be able to get anything from them and will have to find my own housing (I don't mind living in Hoboken or Jersey City or Newark and commuting via Path) while Rutgers is already processing my housing request. And in terms of job opportunities, I've been getting very conflicting advice. Some say Fordham opens a lot of doors that Rutgers cannot and others say that Rutgers has a very good network especially if I don't mind staying in New Jersey.

Thank you all in advance!


The bolded is very vague. How much debt would you have to take on to attend Fordham? How much debt (if any) for Rutgers? We need facts and figures.

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ChiCity22
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby ChiCity22 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:48 pm

about 65% reported salary info for RU-N, out of all the low t1 and t2 schools I looked at, I think Rutgers Newark might have the most transparent info.

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mrtoren
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby mrtoren » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:06 pm

bk1 wrote:That bolded is simplistic and wrong. It is based off the percentage of people reporting salary. At Rutgers this is about 45% whereas at Fordham it is 80%.

This is not to say I'm advocating Fordham here. Fordham is going to cost $210,000 worth of debt whereas Rutgers is going to cost you $65,000. It really makes no sense to go to Fordham unless NJ is last place on earth you want to be.

You corrected my statement with false information...woow. Like Chi said, 69% reported their salaries at RU-N. 96.5% responded to the employment survey. These are clearly stated on the Rutgers employment statistics page which can be found here: --LinkRemoved--. The school is extremely transparent, offering a break down by sector, with max, min, median, and average salaries. Firm size distribution and selected employers are also listed.

I just went on Fordham's career stats page and they don't even list salaries to my knowledge. It can be found here: http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/21378.htm. If someone can find a salary page, please post the link. They list sector percentages as well as firm size distribution, but it leaves much to be desired.

Its obvious to see who is trying to be more open and honest with their students between the two.

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NYC Law
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:10 pm

mrtoren wrote:
bk1 wrote:That bolded is simplistic and wrong. It is based off the percentage of people reporting salary. At Rutgers this is about 45% whereas at Fordham it is 80%.

This is not to say I'm advocating Fordham here. Fordham is going to cost $210,000 worth of debt whereas Rutgers is going to cost you $65,000. It really makes no sense to go to Fordham unless NJ is last place on earth you want to be.

You corrected my statement with false information...woow. Like Chi said, 69% reported their salaries at RU-N. 96.5% responded to the employment survey. These are clearly stated on the Rutgers employment statistics page which can be found here: --LinkRemoved--. The school is extremely transparent, offering a break down by sector, with max, min, median, and average salaries. Firm size distribution and selected employers are also listed.

I just went on Fordham's career stats page and they don't even list salaries to my knowledge. It can be found here: http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/21378.htm. If someone can find a salary page, please post the link. They list sector percentages as well as firm size distribution, but it leaves much to be desired.

Its obvious to see who is trying to be more open and honest with their students between the two.


--LinkRemoved--
78% employed in the private sector, 94% reporting salary

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mrtoren
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby mrtoren » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:28 pm

NYC Law wrote:http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/clearinghouse/?school=fordham&show=flow
78% employed in the private sector, 94% reporting salary

'09 data. Doesn't matter anymore.

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NYC Law
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:32 pm

mrtoren wrote:
NYC Law wrote:http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/clearinghouse/?school=fordham&show=flow
78% employed in the private sector, 94% reporting salary

'09 data. Doesn't matter anymore.


That's all you can use for comparison across schools because it's the only uniform data available.

areyouinsane
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby areyouinsane » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:34 pm

Regardless, NJ firms do pay well.



Yeah, you'll be raking it in:

--LinkRemoved--

"Real" NJ firms like McCarter and Lowenstein are not hiring. McCarter has had no summer program for 2 years in a row, and Lowenstein recently cut a ton of associates.

Law school is a reckless, ill-considered choice. The "market" is saturated beyond belief.

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mrtoren
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby mrtoren » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:41 pm

NYC Law wrote:That's all you can use for comparison across schools because it's the only uniform data available.

Uniform? Its all pulled from USNWR.

areyouinsane wrote:
Yeah, you'll be raking it in:

--LinkRemoved--

"Real" NJ firms like McCarter and Lowenstein are not hiring. McCarter has had no summer program for 2 years in a row, and Lowenstein recently cut a ton of associates.

Law school is a reckless, ill-considered choice. The "market" is saturated beyond belief.

So MidLaw isn't "real"? What kind of ignorant, foolish statement is that? MidLaw still pays well and its what many grads across the country end up in. I'm so sick of apocalyptic pessimists like you who throw around the doom and gloom without any figures to back it up. Nice craigslist ad, Bro. But the data says most grads are doing fine.

areyouinsane
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby areyouinsane » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:41 pm

more bad news:

http://www.lawjobs.com/newsandviews/Law ... hbxlogin=1


Law school looking like a worse and worse idea. Why waste 3 years of your life to almost certainly end up unemployed, or employed and earning lower wages than a fast food employee?

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NYC Law
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:44 pm

mrtoren wrote:
NYC Law wrote:That's all you can use for comparison across schools because it's the only uniform data available.

Uniform? Its all pulled from USNWR.


Hence it is uniform, unlike the varying and often missing data on individual schools' websites.

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NYC Law
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:44 pm

areyouinsane wrote:more bad news:

http://www.lawjobs.com/newsandviews/Law ... hbxlogin=1


Law school looking like a worse and worse idea. Why waste 3 years of your life to almost certainly end up unemployed, or employed and earning lower wages than a fast food employee?


Also, you're an idiot.

areyouinsane
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby areyouinsane » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:47 pm

Hhhhm- I guess the professor who wrote this article for The New Republic is an "idiot" too:

http://www.tnr.com/article/87251/law-sc ... georgetown

Most law grads are NOT finding employment, period. Might want to stop by the reality-based community once in a while, just sayin.

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bk1
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:48 pm

mrtoren wrote:You corrected my statement with false information...woow. Like Chi said, 69% reported their salaries at RU-N. 96.5% responded to the employment survey. These are clearly stated on the Rutgers employment statistics page which can be found here: --LinkRemoved--. The school is extremely transparent, offering a break down by sector, with max, min, median, and average salaries. Firm size distribution and selected employers are also listed.

I just went on Fordham's career stats page and they don't even list salaries to my knowledge. It can be found here: http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/21378.htm. If someone can find a salary page, please post the link. They list sector percentages as well as firm size distribution, but it leaves much to be desired.

Its obvious to see who is trying to be more open and honest with their students between the two.


I was using the '09 data on LST as has been pointed out. It wasn't to attack Rutgers but it was to point out that the difference between the reported median salary and the actual median salary is not uniform across schools. If a school has a higher percentage of reported salaries then that school will have their reported median salary be much closer to the actual when compared to a school that has a lower percentage of reported salaries.

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NYC Law
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Re: Rutgers Newark ($) or Fordham (sticker)?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:50 pm

areyouinsane wrote:Hhhhm- I guess the professor who wrote this article for The New Republic is an "idiot" too:

http://www.tnr.com/article/87251/law-sc ... georgetown

Most law grads are NOT finding employment, period. Might want to stop by the reality-based community once in a while, just sayin.


Hm... Schools misrepresent their employment stats? Thanks for that earth shattering breakthrough.




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