vandy with $ vs. cornell Forum

[bella07]

i had all but happily settled on going to vanderbilt this fall with $60,000 over three years and then i heard from cornell that i got in. i was literally thinking of withdrawing my name from the list as i got the email.
but, of course, now that i have the acceptance i am second guessing.
now the big issue for me is job prospects and debt. i've looked at the employment prospects for both (although i'm distrustful of these in general) but they seem to be about the same (on this website cornell reports 93% for 2009 and vandy states 97% for 2010). at cornell i'd be going at sticker price whereas at vandy i'd get $20,000 each year. costs of living are about the same. BUT vandy has an atrocious lrap program (one that is so bad it might prevent me from doing public interest work) and cornell's is pretty good.
and, lastly, i got into this intl program at cornell, which was sorta the reason i applied there, where you do an extra year in paris to sit for the french bar. intl and/or pi regulatory fields are the reasons i am doing law.
also, southern lifestyle and how sweet everyone at vandy is really appeals to me. cold winters of ithaca a rumors of douchey peers at cornell don't. but law school's about being a lawyer and i wanna do what's best for that. so help me decide please please please.
many thanks.

[CanadianWolf]

Have you visited both schools ?

[Law Sauce]

i had all but happily settled on going to vanderbilt this fall with $60,000 over three years and then i heard from cornell that i got in. i was literally thinking of withdrawing my name from the list as i got the email.
but, of course, now that i have the acceptance i am second guessing.
now the big issue for me is job prospects and debt. i've looked at the employment prospects for both (although i'm distrustful of these in general) but they seem to be about the same (on this website cornell reports 93% for 2009 and vandy states 97% for 2010). at cornell i'd be going at sticker price whereas at vandy i'd get $20,000 each year. costs of living are about the same. BUT vandy has an atrocious lrap program (one that is so bad it might prevent me from doing public interest work) and cornell's is pretty good.
and, lastly, i got into this intl program at cornell, which was sorta the reason i applied there, where you do an extra year in paris to sit for the french bar. intl and/or pi regulatory fields are the reasons i am doing law.
also, southern lifestyle and how sweet everyone at vandy is really appeals to me. cold winters of ithaca a rumors of douchey peers at cornell don't. but law school's about being a lawyer and i wanna do what's best for that. so help me decide please please please.
many thanks.

Lrap difference and more prestigious name I think makes up for the 60k since you are interested in PI stuff generally speaking. Though, if you go to Cornell you will probably come out with a private firm job (just saying, most people end up doing that). So I vote Cornell. Ithaca is actually a cool town, but a world of difference from Nashville. But "niceness" is not the scale that I would use to differentiate them. the people at Cornell were also very nice.

Edit: personally I'd probably lean towards Cornell. I turned down about that much money at a school that there was less of a drop in prestige to than Cornell -> Vandy. So it is not unheard of. On the other side, however, theres a lot that is not prestige driven that vandy has going for it, QoL etc. If thats whats drawing you there, then Cornell isnt really going to offer you what you want so dont take it. There is the chance you would get the same job out of either. Oddly, Vandy seems to send a lot more into interesting jobs in the areas that you mentioned, but then does not support them with an lrap, whereas at cornell there is more support, but seemingly less emphasis. At the asw, however, they definitely were trying to show that they were trying to get better at pi

[bella07]

Have you visited both schools ?

only vandy. and i won't be able to visit cornell cuz i'm overseas until august.

[CanadianWolf]

Without visiting, then it's a tough choice. How important is the Cornell Paris program & are you prepared to pay 4 years sticker at the most expensive (other than non-resident UC-Berkeley) tuition in the country ?

[Law Sauce]

I see that you went to an Ivy. I think that if you liked the atmosphere there, you would fit right in/enjoy it at Cornell.

Compulsory TLS reminder: also with a 4.0 from an Ivy even a decent retake could land you anywhere minus the t3.

[CanadianWolf]

@lawsauce: Interesting comment, but curious as to your thoughts because I see great differences among Ivy League undergraduate campus cultures. For example, Princeton is its own world, Penn is quite urban yet distinguishable from Yale, and neither is similiar to Cornell. Brown has its own culture as does Dartmouth. And Harvard has significant contrasts with Cornell, while Columbia & Cornell are polar opposites in many respects.

[CanadianWolf]

Cornell is the only hybrid private/public university in the country & is often regarded as the odd step-child of the Ivy League.

Vanderbilt is a great law school and an outstanding undergraduate school, but it does have a distinctive upper class Southern aspect to its culture.

Regardless of my thoughts, I am trying to understand your perspective. Thanks !

[Law Sauce]

@lawsauce: Interesting comment, but curious as to your thoughts because I see great differences among Ivy League undergraduate campus cultures. For example, Princeton is its own world, Penn is quite urban yet very different from Yale. Brown has its own culture as does Dartmouth. And Harvard has significant contrasts with Cornell.

True, I dont pretend to be an expert even remotely. But all the iveys seem to have have prestigious/rigorous/academic/intellectual/focused/elite call-it-what-you-will environment that is definitely at Cornell. Thus, if you enjoyed the rigorous environment of an ivy before you may like the environment of cornell law. This is more what you will be influenced by then by Ithaca in general.

Also, vandy doesnt fell like this at all. Its a little more laid back and the students are more into going out and having fun (Im sure they do at Cornell too, it just seemed a little more professional/serious)

[Dany]

What will your total debt be out of Cornell if you do the program in Paris?

[CanadianWolf]

Cornell has, I think, six undergraduate schools--some of which resemble Big Ten state schools more than elite privates. Hotel Management & the labor relations schools are two examples. Cornell also has a school of agriculture. New York state residents get lower tuition at three of the state supported schools at Cornell. Admission standards at Cornell undergrad are easier than the other Ivies, and, when guaranteed transfer options (GTOs) are added in, Cornell admissions are far different than the other seven Ivies.
The rural setting of Cornell is only similiar to Dartmouth--but their campus cultures differ greatly.
Cornell offers great financial, housing & residential comforts to Hispanic/Latino students as well as to Native American students. My impression is that Cornell shares more in common with the Big Ten large, state school cultures than it does with the Ivy league.

[bella07]

What will your total debt be out of Cornell if you do the program in Paris?

$45,000 per year in paris. and you do your 1st 2 in ithaca and your last 2 in paris. but i'm not set on doing this program, nor do i think i'm locked into doing it if i go to cornell.

[CanadianWolf]

Does the $45,000 per year in Paris include COL ? If so, then that seems like a bargain.

[Law Sauce]

How into Vandy are you?

Cornell offers better private options. Cornell offers a better lrap. Cornell is a little riskier because of more debt. Cornell is probably a little worse in the South and better everywhere else. (And a lot better in NYC which is the easiest place to get a Biglaw job).

This points to Cornell for me, unless the answer to the first question is strongly positive. Then, I think it is still very reasonable to turn down Cornell. Nashville is probably objectively more fun than Ithaca.

[bella07]

Does the $45,000 per year in Paris include COL ? If so, then that seems like a bargain.

yep, (tuition's like $22,000) but they price parisian room and board at $15,000 which is laughable and then you are also getting an extra year (4 as opposed to 3) at $45,000 each so....not such a good deal.

[Dany]

I mean, I love to travel/study abroad, but four years at sticker is... yikes. I'd go with the scholarship at Vandy, but I will say that I know nothing about the LRAP and my opinion is a bit biased because I'm from Nashville and love it (and everyone I know at Vandy really likes it.)

Good luck in the decision!

[bella07]

How into Vandy are you?

Cornell offers better private options. Cornell offers a better lrap. Cornell is a little riskier because of more debt. Cornell is probably a little worse in the South and better everywhere else. (And a lot better in NYC which is the easiest place to get a Biglaw job).

This points to Cornell for me, unless the answer to the first question is strongly positive. Then, I think it is still very reasonable to turn down Cornell. Nashville is probably objectively more fun than Ithaca.

i am not into vandy, per se. but i am, in many ways, into nashville over ithaca. like i said, the kickers are career prospects and costs. cornell undoubtedly better for ny (dc and nyc are where i'd like to be) but it also pits me against the nyu and columbia kids for those jobs and against kids in my cornell class (cuz nyc is a bigger draw for cornell kids than vandy ones). which might, in fact, hurt my chances. i mean it's hard to really tell even if we accept the school reported employment stats as valid. then there's the part about being more likely to be higher in my class at vandy--if the other kids are, indeed, less studious that cornell ones--which puts me at an advantage for lr, gpa, and then jobs.

and thanks for not trollin and giving some good advice on here, guys:)

[Law Sauce]

How into Vandy are you?

Cornell offers better private options. Cornell offers a better lrap. Cornell is a little riskier because of more debt. Cornell is probably a little worse in the South and better everywhere else. (And a lot better in NYC which is the easiest place to get a Biglaw job).

This points to Cornell for me, unless the answer to the first question is strongly positive. Then, I think it is still very reasonable to turn down Cornell. Nashville is probably objectively more fun than Ithaca.

i am not into vandy, per se. but i am, in many ways, into nashville over ithaca. like i said, the kickers are career prospects and costs. cornell undoubtedly better for ny (dc and nyc are where i'd like to be) but it also pits me against the nyu and columbia kids for those jobs and against kids in my cornell class (cuz nyc is a bigger draw for cornell kids than vandy ones). which might, in fact, hurt my chances. i mean it's hard to really tell even if we accept the school reported employment stats as valid. then there's the part about being more likely to be higher in my class at vandy--if the other kids are, indeed, less studious that cornell ones--which puts me at an advantage for lr, gpa, and then jobs.

and thanks for not trollin and giving some good advice on here, guys:)

NYC is not like other markets. It is not like you will be competing with NYU and Columbia like you would in a smaller market. NYC legal market is comparable in size to the legal market in the entire rest of the US (for top Biglaw). As such, everyone is trying to get there. But because its so big, it is still the easiest to get (larger class sizes and more firms). People at all the top schools bid on some other market and NYC as a backup because it is a more reliable bid. DC is the opposite. It is a lot smaller and more glamorous. Bidding there is really hard. Anyway, for places in the South that require connections and a desire to work there, Vandy shows some southern desire and thus may have an advantage in Atlanta etc. But if you want to end up in NYC, Cornell is positioned very well to get NYC, much much better than Vandy. And in DC where prestige is king, either school will be tough, but Cornell will be better. This may be different once you get outside of private practice. I think government jobs are rarer, more dependent on connections, and are less worried about prestige.

[Rawlsian]

I vote Vandy unless you're sure you want NYC.

First, keep in mind the price difference. Cornell's tuition for this next year will be $53,150; Vandy's will be $45,750. So with the Vandy scholarship you're looking at tuition of $25,750 for Vandy and $53,150 for Cornell. That's 75k more debt out of Cornell. Further, I'm going to disagree with the above poster a little bit: outiside of NY, there is virtually no difference between these two schools in terms of prospects (except in SE where Vandy has the clear edge). And D.C. is a tough market, but more D.C. firms interview at Vandy than Cornell--22 to 15. I also believe that QOL factors favor Vandy, but I can appreciate the quiet and beauty of Ithaca.

[bella07]

First, keep in mind the price difference. Cornell's tuition for this next year will be $53,150; Vandy's will be $45,750. So with the Vandy scholarship you're looking at tuition of $25,750 for Vandy and $53,150 for Cornell.

yea the tuition is terrifying and almost entirely disuasive (sp?) were it not for the lrap.

thanks for reminding me just how much more expensive cornell would be:(

[Emma1]

I dont think Cornells LRAP is all that great! What if OP was sure she wanted public interest and not big law then where would it be best for her to go?

[mrwarre85]

Unless you are rich, don't go to Cornell.

1. Most people end up working in the same region they went to law school. This is true even if people went to a top school, it is only that it is true to a lesser extent. You mentioned like you like southern culture. You also said you liked NYC and DC. It may be easier to go there from Cornell but if you really want to go there from Vandy you can. Just be flexible and persistent and you will be fine.
2. The price difference is crazy. 4 years at Cornell plus living is like 280k, plus you mentioned what for Paris? 22k? So what we are at $300,000 or so and we haven't even gotten into amortization tables yet.
3. If you go to Cornell and you are not rich, you will be paying that off forever unless you are a very special crayon. You seem like a nice girl who doesn't quite know exactly what you want to do. You are like the majority of law students. Most top 15% types are special crayons who have a serious plan going into law school. Even for them, it would be hard to recommend 300k plus interest.
4. LRAP: Yes I know Cornell has an LRAP, but it takes your husbands earning into account to and unless you just live hand to mouth for the next ten years it won't pay off very much of that now 400k plus you have racked up.

Go to Vandy and spend the 115k, finish in top half and get market rate at a private firm. Hell, stay in Nashville-- sky high QoL plus no state income tax. Have a nice career and profit, or leave after you have paid your debts and go do what you really want to do, whatever that may be at the time. Pat yourself on the back; you would then be free.

Sorry if this is rushed or rude. As you can tell I'm a huge no debt guy. I just think it can be incredibly shackling. I think both high debt and LRAP's take away your freedom because they close so many doors.

Good luck.

[Emma1]

Unless you are rich, don't go to Cornell.

1. Most people end up working in the same region they went to law school. This is true even if people went to a top school, it is only that it is true to a lesser extent. You mentioned like you like southern culture. You also said you liked NYC and DC. It may be easier to go there from Cornell but if you really want to go there from Vandy you can. Just be flexible and persistent and you will be fine.
2. The price difference is crazy. 4 years at Cornell plus living is like 280k, plus you mentioned what for Paris? 22k? So what we are at $300,000 or so and we haven't even gotten into amortization tables yet.
3. If you go to Cornell and you are not rich, you will be paying that off forever unless you are a very special crayon. You seem like a nice girl who doesn't quite know exactly what you want to do. You are like the majority of law students. Most top 15% types are special crayons who have a serious plan going into law school. Even for them, it would be hard to recommend 300k plus interest.
4. LRAP: Yes I know Cornell has an LRAP, but it takes your husbands earning into account to and unless you just live hand to mouth for the next ten years it won't pay off very much of that now 400k plus you have racked up.

Go to Vandy and spend the 115k, finish in top half and get market rate at a private firm. Hell, stay in Nashville-- sky high QoL plus no state income tax. Have a nice career and profit, or leave after you have paid your debts and go do what you really want to do, whatever that may be at the time. Pat yourself on the back; you would then be free.

Sorry if this is rushed or rude. As you can tell I'm a huge no debt guy. I just think it can be incredibly shackling. I think both high debt and LRAP's take away your freedom because they close so many doors.

Good luck.

I actually agree with most of what you said but you should disclose that you are trying to get into Cornell. Are you rich?

[mrwarre85]

Unless you are rich, don't go to Cornell.

1. Most people end up working in the same region they went to law school. This is true even if people went to a top school, it is only that it is true to a lesser extent. You mentioned like you like southern culture. You also said you liked NYC and DC. It may be easier to go there from Cornell but if you really want to go there from Vandy you can. Just be flexible and persistent and you will be fine.
2. The price difference is crazy. 4 years at Cornell plus living is like 280k, plus you mentioned what for Paris? 22k? So what we are at $300,000 or so and we haven't even gotten into amortization tables yet.
3. If you go to Cornell and you are not rich, you will be paying that off forever unless you are a very special crayon. You seem like a nice girl who doesn't quite know exactly what you want to do. You are like the majority of law students. Most top 15% types are special crayons who have a serious plan going into law school. Even for them, it would be hard to recommend 300k plus interest.
4. LRAP: Yes I know Cornell has an LRAP, but it takes your husbands earning into account to and unless you just live hand to mouth for the next ten years it won't pay off very much of that now 400k plus you have racked up.

Go to Vandy and spend the 115k, finish in top half and get market rate at a private firm. Hell, stay in Nashville-- sky high QoL plus no state income tax. Have a nice career and profit, or leave after you have paid your debts and go do what you really want to do, whatever that may be at the time. Pat yourself on the back; you would then be free.

Sorry if this is rushed or rude. As you can tell I'm a huge no debt guy. I just think it can be incredibly shackling. I think both high debt and LRAP's take away your freedom because they close so many doors.

Good luck.

I actually agree with most of what you said but you should disclose that you are trying to get into Cornell. Are you rich?

Not exactly, but I'd leave Cornell with zero debt. I guess that might mean yes.. I don't know.

[Dany]

I actually agree with most of what you said but you should disclose that you are trying to get into Cornell. Are you rich?

Why would he need to when you're here to disclose it for him?