LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby rayiner » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:26 pm

MVPB versus DNC is not something I've seen in any real data. During the boom, PNDC tended to send more into biglaw and less into clerkships, while MVB sent more into clerkships and less into biglaw.

The CCN/MVBPDNC distinction is real, but mostly b/c of the NYC homefield advantage. Remember 8 of the 10 V10 firms with their ~100 person SA classes are in NYC. In my SA class there are 3-5 M/V/N folks (each) and what feels like 15-20 each from CLS and NYU.

User avatar
glewz
Posts: 785
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby glewz » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:27 pm

treysongz45 wrote:
glewz wrote:
treysongz45 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:And when teh market changed NU did 60% who attended OCI, Michigan did 40% total. When it's home market it was crushed no less.

There isn't really a difference in placement after the dust settled. MVP is a 0L myth.


i don't know where those numbers come from but 60% of oci =/= to 60% of class. And you compare the weakest of mvp with the strongest of dcng. lol

and this is where the averages come handy. And the averages say....no difference



and again the averages don't mean much when you consider what has happened to the chicago legal market and the legal market as a whole in the past four years. it is obvious the chicago is hurting. but i can see that you're convinced for some reason that dcng=mvp so i think i'll move on from this conversation.


We have Northwestern, from DNC, whose main market is Chicago; we have Michigan, from MVP, whose main market is Chicago. Isn't Chicago's legal market accounted for then? And NW has performed better than Mich for the last 4 years.

Also, read carefully - no where did I say that DNCG = MVP; I omitted G, and I qualified my criteria for comparison. (firm hiring)

Additional, perhaps more meaningful criteria should be considered to determine one's law school decision among T14: desired legal market, regional preference, friends family, etc.

treysongz45
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:50 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby treysongz45 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:28 pm

dabbadon8 wrote:
treysongz45 wrote:
glewz wrote:
treysongz45 wrote:
i don't know where those numbers come from but 60% of oci =/= to 60% of class. And you compare the weakest of mvp with the strongest of dcng. lol

and this is where the averages come handy. And the averages say....no difference



and again the averages don't mean much when you consider what has happened to the chicago legal market and the legal market as a whole in the past four years. it is obvious the chicago is hurting. but i can see that you're convinced for some reason that dcng=mvp so i think i'll move on from this conversation.


I think the reason he is convinced is the preponderance of evidence points to that conclusion. I had to choose between michigan and duke and chose duke. I would not of made that choice had I found any evidence that suggested MVP was better than DNCG.



you are comparing duke with michigan. i am comparing dcng with mvp. don't be dense

User avatar
glewz
Posts: 785
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby glewz » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:29 pm

treysongz45 wrote:
glewz wrote:Duke Average %: 52.2%
Duke Average Rank: 9.5

Northwestern Average %: 59.2%
Northwestern Average Rank: 4

Cornell Average %: 56%
Cornell Average Rank: 7.25

Georgetown Average %: 44.5%
Georgetown Average Rank: 13

Penn Average %: 60.2%
Penn Average Rank: 4.75

Virginia Average %: 53.7%
Virginia Average Rank: 7.5

Michigan Average %: 51.2%
Michigan Average Rank: 9.5

Berkeley Average %: 53.0%
Berkeley Average Rank: 8.25


MVPB Average %: 54.5%
MVPB Average Rank: 7.5

DNC Average %: 55.8%
DNC Average Rank: 6.9

DNC+G Average %: 53%
DNC+G Average Rank: 8.4




With the exception of Georgetown's #s, there is very little difference in NLJ 250 firm hiring for DNC and MCPB. Resolved?



nice straw man arguement. when did i mention berkeley?


Lol dude? This is not a response to you. This is a response to OP's post, which mentioned that he is considering MPBV.

treysongz45
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:50 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby treysongz45 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:30 pm

dabbadon8 wrote:
treysongz45 wrote:
glewz wrote:
treysongz45 wrote:
i don't know where those numbers come from but 60% of oci =/= to 60% of class. And you compare the weakest of mvp with the strongest of dcng. lol

and this is where the averages come handy. And the averages say....no difference



and again the averages don't mean much when you consider what has happened to the chicago legal market and the legal market as a whole in the past four years. it is obvious the chicago is hurting. but i can see that you're convinced for some reason that dcng=mvp so i think i'll move on from this conversation.


I think the reason he is convinced is the preponderance of evidence points to that conclusion. I had to choose between michigan and duke and chose duke. I would not of made that choice had I found any evidence that suggested MVP was better than DNCG.



you would not of made that choice?


i think you mean "you would not have made that decision"

stylishlaw
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:28 am

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby stylishlaw » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:35 pm

wtf did treysongz45 make an account just to troll this one particular thread

treysongz45
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:50 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby treysongz45 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:42 pm

stylishlaw wrote:wtf did treysongz45 make an account just to troll this one particular thread


I am sorry that you feel this is trolling. How is Duke, bro? Are you a 1l?

User avatar
TUP
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:00 am

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby TUP » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:28 pm

treysongz45 wrote:you realize the legal market has changed quite a bit in the past four years? did you know that? so averaging out the past four years isn't as informative. also what about clerkships? did you factor those in?


Looking at averages of 2007 through 2009 data, Duke is at 12%, MVP are all at 11%, NU and Cornell are at 8%.

Averaging the NLJ250 data posted on this forum (2005 and 2007-2010), Penn is at 60%, NU is at 58%, Cornell at 55%, Virginia at 54%, Duke at 54%, and Michigan at 51%.

So the clerkship spread is less than 5% and NLJ250 is less than 10%. Those differences are probably more due to market preference and the small number of students being considered than anything else.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby rayiner » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:12 pm

Assuming OP isn't trolling...

If you're interested in clerkships you might have a marginally better chance at M, V, and D since those schools tend to place more clerks and thus their CSO's tend to have more experience with that. But I personally wouldn't count it as anything more than a tie-breaker. Simple fact is that for elite clerkships, the only really impressive schools are YHS/Chicago. At the COA level, even between NYU and NU the differences are noticeable but not enormous. NYU placed 46 graduates and alumni in COA clerkships in the 2010-2011 term [1], while NU placed 21 [2]. Adjusting for class size, that's 0.095 COA clerks/graduate for NYU and 0.074 COA clerks/graduate for NU.

EDIT: Also compare Michigan, which placed ~70 COA clerks in C/O 2008, 2009, and 2010, averaging about 23 per class year, or 0.062 COA clerks/graduate [3]/

[1] http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/j ... /index.htm
[2] http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/
[3] --LinkRemoved--

protein
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:44 am

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby protein » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:08 am

stylishlaw wrote:Pretty much:

HYS
CCN
#7 to #13 (No real difference in placement)
Gtown Texas UCLA USC Vandy (very small edge to Gtown, but best choice if you want east coast)
etc.


TITCR

treysongz45
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:50 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby treysongz45 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:29 pm

protein wrote:
stylishlaw wrote:Pretty much:

HYS
CCN
#7 to #13 (No real difference in placement)
Gtown Texas UCLA USC Vandy (very small edge to Gtown, but best choice if you want east coast)
etc.


TITCR



i get it. you go to dcng

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:34 pm

treysongz45 wrote:
protein wrote:
stylishlaw wrote:Pretty much:

HYS
CCN
#7 to #13 (No real difference in placement)
Gtown Texas UCLA USC Vandy (very small edge to Gtown, but best choice if you want east coast)
etc.


TITCR



i get it. you go to dcng


Treysong turned down 75K at Duke to attend UVA at sticker.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:34 pm

Also LOL at MVP. A bunch of prole public schools.

User avatar
glewz
Posts: 785
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby glewz » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:50 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
treysongz45 wrote:
protein wrote:
stylishlaw wrote:Pretty much:

HYS
CCN
#7 to #13 (No real difference in placement)
Gtown Texas UCLA USC Vandy (very small edge to Gtown, but best choice if you want east coast)
etc.


TITCR



i get it. you go to dcng


Treysong turned down 75K at Duke to attend UVA at sticker.


This is the truth.

treysongz45
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:50 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby treysongz45 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:17 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
treysongz45 wrote:
protein wrote:
stylishlaw wrote:Pretty much:

HYS
CCN
#7 to #13 (No real difference in placement)
Gtown Texas UCLA USC Vandy (very small edge to Gtown, but best choice if you want east coast)
etc.


TITCR



how the hell did you know that?


i get it. you go to dcng


Treysong turned down 75K at Duke to attend UVA at sticker.

Snape
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby Snape » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:19 pm

What is the lower T14 as compared to the T14? What is the cut-off number and what happens each year when the US News Rankings flop schools around? 3 years ago 3 schools were tied at 9--were they T14 or lower T14? So confusing

Snape
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby Snape » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:22 pm

Also could someone clarify everytime I see this:

HYS

CCN

7-13

GT

Does the N stand for NYU or Northwestern? Because I know Northwestern dominates NYU in Chicago and it is actually really tough for an NYU grad without connections to get Chicago, and I know NYU does much better than NU in New York--though it is much easer for an NU grad to get New York than for an NYU grad to get Chi? So which places better? So confusing?

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby 09042014 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:33 pm

Snape wrote:Also could someone clarify everytime I see this:

HYS

CCN

7-13

GT

Does the N stand for NYU or Northwestern? Because I know Northwestern dominates NYU in Chicago and it is actually really tough for an NYU grad without connections to get Chicago, and I know NYU does much better than NU in New York--though it is much easer for an NU grad to get New York than for an NYU grad to get Chi? So which places better? So confusing?


N is definitely NYU

User avatar
Stringer Bell
Posts: 1924
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:43 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby Stringer Bell » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:49 pm

Distinguishing NYU from 7-12 pre-ITE was probably overplayed. The distinction is there now though.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby 09042014 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:58 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:Distinguishing NYU from 7-12 pre-ITE was probably overplayed. The distinction is there now though.


NYU always did better at the top firms. But all t14 were pretty much putting 90% into big firms.

Now doing better at big firms translates into more people employed.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby rayiner » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:38 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:Distinguishing NYU from 7-12 pre-ITE was probably overplayed. The distinction is there now though.


What confuses people about NYU, and to a degree CLS is the regional-ness of it's prestige. Outside NYC it might not be a big deal, but 8 of 10 V10 firms, with a combined summer class of around 900, are in NYC. From year to year M might place none or a handful at each of Cravath, S&C, DPW, Cleary, STB, Weil, etc, but NYU and CLS will each place a dozen or more at each firm. At these places, there may be more folks from these two schools than from all the lower-ranked schools put together. Is it because NYU is that much more prestigious? Not really. It's because it is the core recruiting school for these firms since all the partners and associates went there. But if you want a job, that's still a pretty compelling reason.

treysongz45
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:50 pm

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby treysongz45 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:01 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Stringer Bell wrote:Distinguishing NYU from 7-12 pre-ITE was probably overplayed. The distinction is there now though.


NYU always did better at the top firms. But all t14 were pretty much putting 90% into big firms.

Now doing better at big firms translates into more people employed.



damn you really have no idea what you are talking about. do you?

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: LOCI advice for an MPBV v. lower T14

Postby rayiner » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:31 pm

treysongz45 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Stringer Bell wrote:Distinguishing NYU from 7-12 pre-ITE was probably overplayed. The distinction is there now though.


NYU always did better at the top firms. But all t14 were pretty much putting 90% into big firms.

Now doing better at big firms translates into more people employed.



damn you really have no idea what you are talking about. do you?


Cornell has historical OCI data. They were over 80% for 2L SAs during the boom.

You can see this in the NLJ250 data. http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20080 ... chools.jpg

When you see NU with 74% NLJ250 jobs at graduation, that means close to 90% with 2L SAs, because most people who end up clerking + some people who end up doing government or PI do an SA for their 2L summer.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests