Columbia Butler vs. Harvard Sticker Forum

[zanda]

FWIW when I was in the hodunk town in which I grew up and it came out that I was planning on going to law school (with no particular school in mind), multiple women, dumb but attractive, wanted a piece. I agree that this wouldn't happen in Manhattan, whether at YLS or HLS.

[Exeter]

Go to Harvard. I am a guy and I met a girl at an ASW at a T-25 who went to Harvard. I spent the entire night trying to get with her just because she went to Harvard (and was extremely attractive).

[09042014]

Considering people have turned down many Hamiltons for Harvard, I think a Butler would be easier to turn down regardless of the difference in placement, or a I missing something?

In all seriousness: what else is there?

There's lay prestige, but let's be honest guys: that shit's in your own mind. If you're good-looking she'll sleep with you; if you aren't, then HLS prolly isn't gonna compensate for that.

No girl will sleep with you b/c you went to HLS, but her parents will be more impressed...

This has not been true in my experience.

Girls at HLS don't count.

[InLikeFlint]

This has not been true in my experience.

+1

What sort of nerd-hags are you guys pulling?

No shit right? There is some seriously nasty New England skank out there, but I'm not sure I even understand the scenario here.

(scene: overpriced club in Manhattan)

HLS grad: I went to Harvard.
Preppy slut: I want you to come over to my place right now.

This scenario seems... I dunno. I guess I don't own enough sweater vests or something.

There are plenty more superficial reasons why a girl would want to have sex with you than the fact that you went to Harvard. I don't go around dropping the H-bomb everywhere, but people at my undergrad definitely treated me differently (not my good friends, but classmates, "preppy sluts", and other casual acquaintances) after they heard that I got into HLS. It's a fact of life.

[09042014]

Harvard. If only because you can be in bumblefuck Kansas and be sure that the guy at the diner will be impressed by where you went to law school.

Doods in bumble fuck either hate lawyers, or think they are all prefstigious.

No joke, I was talking to a co worker about law schools, somehow we got into where I'd like to go and I said columbia. He then asked if that was the same as Mizzou, which is in columbia, missouri. I'm sure if I said harvard he wouldn't have gotten confused. And I live in a city.

I was only vaguely aware of Columbia before law school admissions.

[ahduth]

Harvard. If only because you can be in bumblefuck Kansas and be sure that the guy at the diner will be impressed by where you went to law school.

Doods in bumble fuck either hate lawyers, or think they are all prefstigious.

No joke, I was talking to a co worker about law schools, somehow we got into where I'd like to go and I said columbia. He then asked if that was the same as Mizzou, which is in columbia, missouri. I'm sure if I said harvard he wouldn't have gotten confused. And I live in a city.

I was only vaguely aware of Columbia before law school admissions.

Columbia College amirite?

[TLSNYC]

I apologize if this is written somewhere, but this decision depends on your career goals. If you're interested in NYC BigLaw, then I think CLS w/Butler might make more sense, only because that is the one area where the difference between the two schools is the least prominent.

Also, I might have said HLS had you asked me this a week ago, but I just took out my loans for law school and am beginning to realize just how much money 175k+ is. Keep in mind that if NYC BigLaw is the goal, that scholarship money is huge - after taxes and all, your 160k salary will shrink to 93k (still obviously a great amount of money). If you owe 20k or so in loans from Harvard at sticker, you will be down to 70k a year. Again, a respectable amount of money (or maybe more than respectable depending on your perspective), but still 10-15k less a year for the next ten years than you could have had if you chose CLS w/ Butler.

[lawschoolconflicted]

I apologize if this is written somewhere, but this decision depends on your career goals. If you're interested in NYC BigLaw, then I think CLS w/Butler might make more sense, only because that is the one area where the difference between the two schools is the least prominent.

Also, I might have said HLS had you asked me this a week ago, but I just took out my loans for law school and am beginning to realize just how much money 175k+ is. Keep in mind that if NYC BigLaw is the goal, that scholarship money is huge - after taxes and all, your 160k salary will shrink to 93k (still obviously a great amount of money). If you owe 20k or so in loans from Harvard at sticker, you will be down to 70k a year. Again, a respectable amount of money (or maybe more than respectable depending on your perspective), but still 10-15k less a year for the next ten years than you could have had if you chose CLS w/ Butler.

I'm also pretty sure Columbia is about 7k/year more expensive than Harvard. I'm not very good at loan calculations, but I'm assuming the difference in loans/cost wouldn't be as extreme if one takes into account COA. And all kidding aside, I think it's pretty incredible to be able to say you graduated from Harvard Law

[rayiner]

Let me throw in one thing that I think will back up Desert Fox's point about taking the money if your only interest is NYC biglaw: loans are a serious bitch.

With tuition + cost of living - proceeds from a summer SA, your total loans will be in the $230k range if you pay sticker. Remember, you'll rack up tens of thousand of dollars in deferred interest payments while in school --- you can't just multiply the cost of attendance by 3x.

Now, the monthly take-home in NYC, after taxes is $8100. Just the minimum loan payment, on a 10-year plan, is going to be a crushing $2700/month. A reasonably nice apartment is going to run you $2,500/month, assuming you want to live within a 30 minute commute, want some semblance of amenities, etc. And when you're working 12 hours a day, trust me, you will feel entitled to these things. That leaves $2,900/month. Which is a ton of disposable income, but it's not really all disposable.

1) Dressing the way you'll be expected to dress at a big NYC firm is not cheap. You'll spend $100/month on dry-cleaning and laundry.
2) You'll end up eating out a lot because you don't have time to cook.
3) The nice gym near your office will run $150-$200/month.
4) Transportation will run $100/month for an unlimited MTA pass.

Aside from these basic expenses, there is the simple fact that you're likely going to be out of biglaw in 3-5 years. With your loans at a level that would be completely unmanageable if you had to take a normal job, you're going to want to pay them down. Moreover, from your perspective, it's a risk-free 7.6% return.

I made out a basic budget and at the end of the day, once the huge NYC taxes and staggering loan payments are factored in, I'll have less disposable income after graduating from law school and making $160k than I did after graduating from college and living in Atlanta making $60k.

Getting rid of the loan payments would mean a very real difference in your QoL during your stint in biglaw.

[delusional]

Let me throw in one thing that I think will back up Desert Fox's point about taking the money if your only interest is NYC biglaw: loans are a serious bitch.

With tuition + cost of living - proceeds from a summer SA, your total loans will be in the $230k range if you pay sticker. Remember, you'll rack up tens of thousand of dollars in deferred interest payments while in school --- you can't just multiply the cost of attendance by 3x.

Now, the monthly take-home in NYC, after taxes is $8100. Just the minimum loan payment, on a 10-year plan, is going to be a crushing $2700/month. A reasonably nice apartment is going to run you $2,500/month, assuming you want to live within a 30 minute commute, want some semblance of amenities, etc. And when you're working 12 hours a day, trust me, you will feel entitled to these things. That leaves $2,900/month. Which is a ton of disposable income, but it's not really all disposable.

1) Dressing the way you'll be expected to dress at a big NYC firm is not cheap. You'll spend $100/month on dry-cleaning and laundry.
2) You'll end up eating out a lot because you don't have time to cook.
3) The nice gym near your office will run $150-$200/month.
4) Transportation will run $100/month for an unlimited MTA pass.

Aside from these basic expenses, there is the simple fact that you're likely going to be out of biglaw in 3-5 years. With your loans at a level that would be completely unmanageable if you had to take a normal job, you're going to want to pay them down. Moreover, from your perspective, it's a risk-free 7.6% return.

I made out a basic budget and at the end of the day, once the huge NYC taxes and staggering loan payments are factored in, I'll have less disposable income after graduating from law school and making $160k than I did after graduating from college and living in Atlanta making $60k.

Getting rid of the loan payments would mean a very real difference in your QoL during your stint in biglaw.

A few 0L counterpoints: I don't think that if you live like a student at HLS, you will necessarily incur that much debt.

If you are old enough, or your family poor enough, that your parents are not expected to contribute (it starts on a sliding scale at 26, I believe,) and you don't have a ton of assets, then Harvard's aid is likely to help significantly.

I would think that, assuming variables (family help, grant aid, SA money) are taken into account, $160000 is reasonable debt for a single student at Harvard.

There are apartments within 1/2 hour of Midtown or Wall Street that are not in Manhattan.

Don't many biglaw firms have gyms or gym membership as a perk?

And also meals, especially for people working late?

If you're going to be out of biglaw anyway in three years, wouldn't you rather have the name that lasts a lifetime?

[Patriot1208]

Ray, you had more than 35k in disposable income on a 60k salary? That seems impossible.

[BruceWayne]

If you think going to Harvard law school doesn't help you pull women you either

1. Are a woman and are in denial about how much status/money attract women
2. Are a man with little to no experience with women
3. You are regularly around high income upper class WASPS who are accustomed to running into Harvard law grads.

My guess is that most responding fall into categories 2 and 3.


If OP wants NYC biglaw Columbia all the way. If he wants PI Harvard. Anything else and it's a tough call.

[rayiner]

A few 0L counterpoints: I don't think that if you live like a student at HLS, you will necessarily incur that much debt.

If you are old enough, or your family poor enough, that your parents are not expected to contribute (it starts on a sliding scale at 26, I believe,) and you don't have a ton of assets, then Harvard's aid is likely to help significantly.

I would think that, assuming variables (family help, grant aid, SA money) are taken into account, $160000 is reasonable debt for a single student at Harvard.

There are apartments within 1/2 hour of Midtown or Wall Street that are not in Manhattan.

Don't many biglaw firms have gyms or gym membership as a perk?

And also meals, especially for people working late?

If you're going to be out of biglaw anyway in three years, wouldn't you rather have the name that lasts a lifetime?

I don't know OP's family situation. Harvard's cost of attendance is about $1k/year north of Northwestern's, and $225k is just about what I'm looking at factoring in SA money. $160k is pretty optimistic --- that assumes that over $20k/year is going to come from somewhere else. Possible, but if that much money was going to come from elsewhere I'd assume OP would've mentioned it. Also, as an aside, the estimated cost of attendance is not particularly generous. Tuition alone is $47k/year, then health insurance, fees, etc. You might be able to save $3-4k per year by living further away from school, not going out, etc, but these are also not conducive to performing your best.

If you're working in Midtown, at least, your only options in the half hour range outside of Manhattan is Long Island City. I work right next to Grand Central and it takes me a solid 10 minutes between the time I get off the train until I have my butt in my seat. Count another 10 minutes getting to the subway itself, you're really looking at places within a 10 minute subway ride. You can fudge a bit and not count the true door to door time, but that's silly. And trust me, when you work 12 hour days a low-stress commute has an enormous impact on your QoL. Working in Financial District gives you some more options, since Jersey City is literally just a 4-minute PATH ride from World Trade Center.

Same thing about digs. As a 0L it's easy to say you'll save money and live in a crappy place, but once you actually face the prospect of working 12 hour days and coming home to a crappy apartment, that forces you to be more realistic.

As for meals and gym memberships, they don't come for free. Our firms's subsidized gym membership is like $130/month, and you don't really want to count on charging all your meals to clients.

Your final point is definitely credited though. I'm just offering a counter-point to consider.

[rayiner]

If you think going to Harvard law school doesn't help you pull women you either

1. Are a woman and are in denial about how much status/money attract women
2. Are a man with little to no experience with women
3. You are regularly around high income upper class WASPS who are accustomed to running into Harvard law grads.

My guess is that most responding fall into categories 2 and 3.


If OP wants NYC biglaw Columbia all the way. If he wants PI Harvard. Anything else and it's a tough call.

Harvard MBA or Med? Sure. Law school? Eh, not so much. Unless, as I said, you're trolling Cambridge bars.

[flcath]

If you think going to Harvard law school doesn't help you pull women you either

1. Are a woman and are in denial about how much status/money attract women
2. Are a man with little to no experience with women
3. You are regularly around high income upper class WASPS who are accustomed to running into Harvard law grads.

My guess is that most responding fall into categories 2 and 3.


If OP wants NYC biglaw Columbia all the way. If he wants PI Harvard. Anything else and it's a tough call.

Harvard MBA or Med? Sure. Law school? Eh, not so much. Unless, as I said, you're trolling Cambridge bars.

Obviously med school comparisons are in a whole 'nother league.

With HLS you still have to artfully drop the H-bomb, which I bet can be hard to do when you aren't actively going there anymore, whereas girls know you're a DOCTOR before you even meet them. "I went to HMS" is just the (completely unnecessary) icing on the cake.

[InLikeFlint]

If you think going to Harvard law school doesn't help you pull women you either

1. Are a woman and are in denial about how much status/money attract women
2. Are a man with little to no experience with women
3. You are regularly around high income upper class WASPS who are accustomed to running into Harvard law grads.

My guess is that most responding fall into categories 2 and 3.


If OP wants NYC biglaw Columbia all the way. If he wants PI Harvard. Anything else and it's a tough call.

Harvard MBA or Med? Sure. Law school? Eh, not so much. Unless, as I said, you're trolling Cambridge bars.

I think most people are too dumb to realize that medicine is more prestigious than law.

[rayiner]

Ray, you had more than 35k in disposable income on a 60k salary? That seems impossible.

I'm making a loose comparison. My salary was a bit more than that and I had a room-mate in Atlanta so my rent was only $800. I probably had $2,000/mo in legit disposable income, after putting something into my 401k and making my car payments. On the flip side, you don't really get $3k/month in disposable income working big law in NYC, because you need to pay down some of those loans to get the payments to a more manageable number before you get booted.

[flcath]

If you think going to Harvard law school doesn't help you pull women you either

1. Are a woman and are in denial about how much status/money attract women
2. Are a man with little to no experience with women
3. You are regularly around high income upper class WASPS who are accustomed to running into Harvard law grads.

My guess is that most responding fall into categories 2 and 3.


If OP wants NYC biglaw Columbia all the way. If he wants PI Harvard. Anything else and it's a tough call.

Harvard MBA or Med? Sure. Law school? Eh, not so much. Unless, as I said, you're trolling Cambridge bars.

I think most people are too dumb to realize that medicine is more prestigious than law.

Now *there* you are completely mistaken.

(1) Women are born sexually defenseless to holders of the MD degree.
(2) While a law degree from HLS might compete with an MD in their minds, most girls that talk to you won't know you went to HLS until you tell them, whereas girls know going in that they're trying to chat up a DOCTOR...

It's the classic truism about how the MD itself is prestigious, whereas the JD is only as good as the school it's from.

[InLikeFlint]

If you think going to Harvard law school doesn't help you pull women you either

1. Are a woman and are in denial about how much status/money attract women
2. Are a man with little to no experience with women
3. You are regularly around high income upper class WASPS who are accustomed to running into Harvard law grads.

My guess is that most responding fall into categories 2 and 3.


If OP wants NYC biglaw Columbia all the way. If he wants PI Harvard. Anything else and it's a tough call.

Harvard MBA or Med? Sure. Law school? Eh, not so much. Unless, as I said, you're trolling Cambridge bars.

I think most people are too dumb to realize that medicine is more prestigious than law.

Now *there* you are completely mistaken.

(1) Women are born sexually defenseless to holders of the MD degree.
(2) While a law degree from HLS might compete with an MD in their minds, most girls that talk to you won't know you went to HLS until you tell them, whereas girls know going in that they're trying to chat up a DOCTOR...

It's the classic truism about how the MD itself is prestigious, whereas the JD is only as good as the school it's from.

OK glad you cleared that up.

[flcath]

Now *there* you are completely mistaken.

(1) Women are born sexually defenseless to holders of the MD degree.
(2) While a law degree from HLS might compete with an MD in their minds, most girls that talk to you won't know you went to HLS until you tell them, whereas girls know going in that they're trying to chat up a DOCTOR...

It's the classic truism about how the MD itself is prestigious, whereas the JD is only as good as the school it's from.

OK glad you cleared that up.

CAVEAT:

Unless your competition is a SURGEON, in which case you should pack it up and head home for the night, and try again with a different girl when your confidence has recovered.

[InLikeFlint]

CAVEAT:

Unless your competition is a SURGEON, in which case you should pack it up and head home for the night, and try again with a different girl when your confidence has recovered.

Re-read my last post, paying attention to both bolded segments.

[flcath]

CAVEAT:

Unless your competition is a SURGEON, in which case you should pack it up and head home for the night, and try again with a different girl when your confidence has recovered.

Re-read my last post, paying attention to both bolded segments.

I didn't post the first one.

Also, "i'm impressed with your pedigree" =/= "I wanna sleep with you," as ugly HLS grads and probably most-all MIT grads can painfully attest.

[westinghouse60]

What do you guys who are applying to T14s (especially ones with a lot of lay prestige) tell people when they ask where you want to go to law school/how do they react? My parents were pretty shocked when I said I wanted UVA/Cornell, and I don't even tell people I don't know well that's what my goal is, they'll probably think I'm joking.

[sonervous88]

What do you guys who are applying to T14s (especially ones with a lot of lay prestige) tell people when they ask where you want to go to law school/how do they react? My parents were pretty shocked when I said I wanted UVA/Cornell, and I don't even tell people I don't know well that's what my goal is, they'll probably think I'm joking.

When I was going through this process the quetion was usually "where are you going to law school" and i always said "i don't know I'm just applying. If they ask where you are applying tell them. everyone thought i was joking or reaching too high. and i didn't exactly have an awful cycle.

[Corwin]

The argument about women sleeping with HLS graduates is hilarious. There are much easier options to get women to sleep with you. Stop eating those Doritos and posting on TLS and hit the gym. I'm not saying HLS doesn't help, but Jesus christ haha. How about taking care of yourself and doing something interesting with your life.