Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

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shoeshine
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby shoeshine » Fri May 27, 2011 10:07 pm

I really don't see the fraud here. The basically disclose that they are only reporting data from <5% of their actual graduates. Anyone willing to invest 150k+ in a law school education but not willing to do their due diligence about the actual employment prospect of going to that school is an idiot. The information about TTTTs is everywhere all these students had to do was look for it.

flexityflex86
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby flexityflex86 » Fri May 27, 2011 10:23 pm

PDaddy wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:I don't think it is fair to single out TJL or even law schools in general.

Law school is not the only graduate education or educational forum that enhances employment #'s - what about BA's for the love of god or better yet BFA's from expensive liberal arts schools who claim mean 70k starting salaries?


Who said the law schools were unique in their behavior? I say go after tham as well. But the law schools apear to do this on a more massive scale, and the fraud - and that's what it is - does seem to have more far-reaching implications. I said the law schools were committing fraud about three years ago, and a lot of people laughed. There is no difference between what the law schools are doing and what Bear Stearns, MCI Worldcom, Enron, and WaMu did.


When you say fraud, do you mean they are directly making shit up or are they only reporting from 2% of graduates which they disclose in small print?


This reminds me of an exchange in "A few Good Men".

Lt. Caffey: "Grave danger?"
Colonel Jessep: "Is there any other kind?"

That goes to say, isn't misrepresentation of numbers (whether by commition or omission) for the ultimate purpose of financial gain classic fraud? A lie is a lie!

The resulting increase in demand that schools use to justify tuition increases and inflate rankings in order to secure million$ in donation$, not to mention the application fees that can total up to $300K-$1M per year, spells fraud.

If WaMu routinely fails to tell investors about quarterly losses or unfavorable court rulings, WaMu is misleading its investors for financial gain. No way to get around that. If a schools fails to tell applicants that only $70% of its graduates are employed, and this is the case after a year-and-a-half (as opposed to 90% employment after nine months), it is fraud.

Every business tries to enhance their product. Have you ever bought a car or rented an apartment.... even ordered chinese? They call the chicken succulent, and I personally think succulent is a bit extreme to describe it, but I'm not suing. My point is if you thought TJL was going to make you millions of dollars, you probably would just as easily have bet your savings on the Lakers and lost it.

InLikeFlint
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson School of L

Postby InLikeFlint » Fri May 27, 2011 10:32 pm

PDaddy wrote:
Yes (on the bolded part), and we can see where that has gotten this country. Deregulation screwed homeowners and investors, and has done permanent damage to our economic model. Even if/when we recover, we cannot continue to function in the same way. When the fox guards the hen house it ain't good for the baby hens! It's about time someone stepped in. Congress needs to step in and place a moratorium on rankings and the LSAT for about five years, until a new test can be placed and administered. Colleges and universities with law schools found to be deceiving the public should be at least partially defunded, administrators should be removed and brought before the state bar(s), and some should even face criminal charges.

Through their administrators, these schools are engaging in the very behavior for which they would quickly deny or expell students. They hold students to character-fitness standards while failing it themselves. I want to know who is lying.

I also believe the lawsuit should name the ABA and the LSAC, both of which enable and even assists the schools in the behavior.


What does the LSAT have to do with any of this?

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PDaddy
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby PDaddy » Fri May 27, 2011 10:37 pm

I'm not the first or only person to suggest the fraud angle. Many scholars agree. Here are just a few recent articles discussing fraud by the law schools.

--LinkRemoved--

--LinkRemoved--

http://www.tnr.com/article/87251/law-sc ... n?page=0,0

http://T14 Paradise.blogspot.com/20 ... nesty.html

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/inde ... =4018773.0

I am not saying that the schools are "promising" employment or guaranteeing it (although they come aabout as dangerously close to making guarantees as one can get). What I am saying is that students are induced to spend time effort and money on a process that is designed to successfully serve only a small portion of them. While they have a choice to go to law school and a choice of what schools to attend or even to practice law after they have graduated, most students rely reasonably on the prospect of having a chance at employment right after graduation.

Even when the economy was good, this was not reflected in reality. Job prospects were dim compared to the expectations created by the schools. Even the top schools are guilty of it. A student in the top-50% of his class at any law school should be interviewed for positions. If the schools know that this is not the reality at their schools, they need to inform students. We know what the general picture looks like, but we cannot tel at any individual school.

We know what the general employment picture looks like, but we know nothing about the employment picture for individual schools.

I must also add that inducing students with easily revokable scholarships borders on fraud because the scholarship student who did well in UG has a reasonable expectation that he will do at least well enough to keep his scholarship in law school. Administrators and profs adjust grading criteria, strategically arrange sections that pit scholarship students against each other to induce lower grades, etc.

The banks that loan to law students are also culpable in this scam.

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PDaddy
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson School of L

Postby PDaddy » Fri May 27, 2011 10:46 pm

InLikeFlint wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
Yes (on the bolded part), and we can see where that has gotten this country. Deregulation screwed homeowners and investors, and has done permanent damage to our economic model. Even if/when we recover, we cannot continue to function in the same way. When the fox guards the hen house it ain't good for the baby hens! It's about time someone stepped in. Congress needs to step in and place a moratorium on rankings and the LSAT for about five years, until a new test can be placed and administered. Colleges and universities with law schools found to be deceiving the public should be at least partially defunded, administrators should be removed and brought before the state bar(s), and some should even face criminal charges.

Through their administrators, these schools are engaging in the very behavior for which they would quickly deny or expell students. They hold students to character-fitness standards while failing it themselves. I want to know who is lying.

I also believe the lawsuit should name the ABA and the LSAC, both of which enable and even assists the schools in the behavior.


What does the LSAT have to do with any of this?


First, the LSAC is a disseminator of law school statistics. Secondly, it administers a flawed test that parcels out students along lines that guarantee lower scorers (those who are not necessarily less qualified for the legal profession) to schools that, according to ranking, are more and more likely to engage in the fraud we are talking about. The rankings themselves, which incorporate LSAT scores in their metrics are inherently flawed as a result. The desire to improve rankings hurts students, especially those forced to attend lower-ranked schools. The influence is both "top-down" and "bottom-up", as top schools seek to maintain their standings and lower schools seek to increase theirs.

The schools are easily motivated to engage in this behavior. This is why any attempts to rectify this problem must be comprehensive and will have to include a moratorium on rankings and a remaking of the LSAT. If you or I lied on our applications, we would be denied admission to school and/or the bar, have our diplomas revoked, and be forced to repay all grants, scholarships and loans. We might even be publicly shamed by having our names printed in school materials. Why shouldn't the law schools themselves receive the same treatment?

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Kabuo
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson School of L

Postby Kabuo » Fri May 27, 2011 10:53 pm

PDaddy wrote:
First, the LSAC is a disseminator of law school statistics. Secondly, it administers a flawed test that parcels out students along lines that guarantee lower scorers (those who are not necessarily less qualified for the legal profession) to schools that, according to ranking, are more and more likely to engage in the fraud we are talking about. The rankings themselves, which incorporate LSAT scores in their metrics are inherently flawed as a result. The desire to improve rankings hurts students, especially those forced to attend lower-ranked schools. The influence is both "top-down" and "bottom-up", as top schools seek to maintain their standings and lower schools seek to increase theirs.

The schools are easily motivated to engage in this behavior. This is why any attempts to rectify this problem must be comprehensive and will have to include a moratorium on rankings and a remaking of the LSAT. If you or I lied on our applications, we would be denied admission to school and/or the bar, have our diplomas revoked, and be forced to repay all grants, scholarships and loans. We might even be publicly shamed by having our names printed in school materials. Why shouldn't the law schools themselves receive the same treatment?


No one makes top schools prefer top LSATs. They just do, because generally, the top scorers on the LSAT are more likely to do well than the lower scorers. Generally. Get over it. The LSAT is one of the most fair standardized tests out there, and even if it weren't, trying to attach it to the movement to get law schools to be accountable would just increase the difficulty of making them accountable by making part of the movement easily criticized. It's just completely unnecessary to drag the LSAT into this. So much so that I wonder if you're trolling.

InLikeFlint
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson School of L

Postby InLikeFlint » Fri May 27, 2011 11:03 pm

Kabuo wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
First, the LSAC is a disseminator of law school statistics. Secondly, it administers a flawed test that parcels out students along lines that guarantee lower scorers (those who are not necessarily less qualified for the legal profession) to schools that, according to ranking, are more and more likely to engage in the fraud we are talking about. The rankings themselves, which incorporate LSAT scores in their metrics are inherently flawed as a result. The desire to improve rankings hurts students, especially those forced to attend lower-ranked schools. The influence is both "top-down" and "bottom-up", as top schools seek to maintain their standings and lower schools seek to increase theirs.

The schools are easily motivated to engage in this behavior. This is why any attempts to rectify this problem must be comprehensive and will have to include a moratorium on rankings and a remaking of the LSAT. If you or I lied on our applications, we would be denied admission to school and/or the bar, have our diplomas revoked, and be forced to repay all grants, scholarships and loans. We might even be publicly shamed by having our names printed in school materials. Why shouldn't the law schools themselves receive the same treatment?


No one makes top schools prefer top LSATs. They just do, because generally, the top scorers on the LSAT are more likely to do well than the lower scorers. Generally. Get over it. The LSAT is one of the most fair standardized tests out there, and even if it weren't, trying to attach it to the movement to get law schools to be accountable would just increase the difficulty of making them accountable by making part of the movement easily criticized. It's just completely unnecessary to drag the LSAT into this. So much so that I wonder if you're trolling.


I wonder so, myself.

If the LSAT were taken out of the equation, then schools would still compete for the "best" students based on the remaining factors. Keep in mind that the LSAT is slightly better than UGPA for predicting performance in law school. So you want to get rid of the best single predictor of first-year performance because it isn't a perfect metric?

scammedhard
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson School of L

Postby scammedhard » Fri May 27, 2011 11:12 pm

InLikeFlint wrote:If the LSAT were taken out of the equation, then schools would still compete for the "best" students based on the remaining factors. Keep in mind that the LSAT is slightly better than UGPA for predicting performance in law school. So you want to get rid of the best single predictor of first-year performance because it isn't a perfect metric?

The LSAT, as a predictor, is pretty lame. Yes, it is the best predictor, but compared to what? Not much really.

As flawed as the LSAT might be, right now it is one of the few barriers of entry into this already saturated profession. Imagine what schools like Cooley or TJSL would do if the LSAT requirement was waived. They'll pretty much accept any living being that can get a student loan. So, I am OK with the LSAT until someone comes up with a better test or other requirements.

InLikeFlint
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson School of L

Postby InLikeFlint » Fri May 27, 2011 11:17 pm

scammedhard wrote:
InLikeFlint wrote:If the LSAT were taken out of the equation, then schools would still compete for the "best" students based on the remaining factors. Keep in mind that the LSAT is slightly better than UGPA for predicting performance in law school. So you want to get rid of the best single predictor of first-year performance because it isn't a perfect metric?

The LSAT, as a predictor, is pretty lame. Yes, it is the best predictor, but compared to what? Not much really.

As flawed as the LSAT might be, right now it is one of the few barriers of entry into this already saturated profession. Imagine what schools like Cooley or TJSL would do if the LSAT requirement was waived. They'll pretty much accept any living being that can get a student loan. So, I am OK with the LSAT until someone comes up with a better test or other requirements.



It is better than any other standardized test (GRE, GMAT, MCAT, etc.). I just don't know how else schools can get an apples to apples comparison of all applicants.

scammedhard
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson School of L

Postby scammedhard » Fri May 27, 2011 11:35 pm

InLikeFlint wrote:It is better than any other standardized test (GRE, GMAT, MCAT, etc.). I just don't know how else schools can get an apples to apples comparison of all applicants.

I wasn't aware of that. Can you please point me to where I can find that data?

phialphadelta
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby phialphadelta » Sat May 28, 2011 12:13 am

The New York times ran an article that Thomas Jefferson school of law lied about it’s employment numbers, and counted graduating students who did not respond to the survey as being employed as part of its employment statistics it sent to the ABA.

And TJSL’s Admissions Dean Beth Kransberger’s only response to these accusations was “This was done in accordance with the rules by the ABA”

Plummeting Bar passage rates, and negative media attention equals loss of ABA accreditation soon for Thomas Jefferson school of law.

scammedhard
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby scammedhard » Sat May 28, 2011 12:18 am

phialphadelta wrote:Plummeting Bar passage rates, and negative media attention equals loss of ABA accreditation soon for Thomas Jefferson school of law.

This is assuming that the ABA will actually do its work, and I am not so sure if the ABA is up to the task. But I would to see the ABA pull the plug on TJSL. I hope you are right.

InLikeFlint
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson School of L

Postby InLikeFlint » Sat May 28, 2011 12:24 am

scammedhard wrote:
InLikeFlint wrote:It is better than any other standardized test (GRE, GMAT, MCAT, etc.). I just don't know how else schools can get an apples to apples comparison of all applicants.

I wasn't aware of that. Can you please point me to where I can find that data?


There were a few links in an old thread about the validity of the LSAT (rather than an unrelated thread that got trolled), but I can't find them at the moment. It showed that the LSAT was slightly more predictive of first year grades than the GMAT and much more predictive than the GRE or MCAT. If I can find it again I will post.

But if you think about it, it should be obvious that the GRE won't be very accurate; my brother, a vet student, had to take a test that was based 50% on his knowledge of the definitions of obscure words and his writing ability. It has almost no relation to what you lear or are tested on in vet school.

scammedhard
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson School of L

Postby scammedhard » Sat May 28, 2011 12:38 am

InLikeFlint wrote:There were a few links in an old thread about the validity of the LSAT (rather than an unrelated thread that got trolled), but I can't find them at the moment. It showed that the LSAT was slightly more predictive of first year grades than the GMAT and much more predictive than the GRE or MCAT. If I can find it again I will post.

But if you think about it, it should be obvious that the GRE won't be very accurate; my brother, a vet student, had to take a test that was based 50% on his knowledge of the definitions of obscure words and his writing ability. It has almost no relation to what you lear or are tested on in vet school.

You are right. The GRE is used for so many things that I doubt it is more predictive than the more tailored LSAT, but I am intrigued by the notion that the LSAT is more predictive than the MCAT. If you do find the info, please send me a PM.

Going back to TJSL, I really, really hope that they go down in flames.

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DietCoke
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby DietCoke » Sat May 28, 2011 1:27 am

shoeshine wrote:I really don't see the fraud here. The basically disclose that they are only reporting data from <5% of their actual graduates. Anyone willing to invest 150k+ in a law school education but not willing to do their due diligence about the actual employment prospect of going to that school is an idiot. The information about TTTTs is everywhere all these students had to do was look for it.


This has nothing to do with the merits of the case.

shoeshine
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby shoeshine » Sat May 28, 2011 1:36 am

DietCoke wrote:
shoeshine wrote:I really don't see the fraud here. The basically disclose that they are only reporting data from <5% of their actual graduates. Anyone willing to invest 150k+ in a law school education but not willing to do their due diligence about the actual employment prospect of going to that school is an idiot. The information about TTTTs is everywhere all these students had to do was look for it.


This has nothing to do with the merits of the case.


Agreed. But I was just reiterating that I have no personal sympathy for the so called "victims".

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prezidentv8
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat May 28, 2011 2:15 am

shoeshine wrote:
DietCoke wrote:
shoeshine wrote:I really don't see the fraud here. The basically disclose that they are only reporting data from <5% of their actual graduates. Anyone willing to invest 150k+ in a law school education but not willing to do their due diligence about the actual employment prospect of going to that school is an idiot. The information about TTTTs is everywhere all these students had to do was look for it.


This has nothing to do with the merits of the case.


Agreed. But I was just reiterating that I have no personal sympathy for the so called "victims".


Well...just to get in on this, I'm not sure how I feel about the "victims" but I know I'd rather they have their money than the alternative.

splittinghairs
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby splittinghairs » Sat May 28, 2011 2:49 am

There are actually plenty of law schools that simply report the Average or Median salary without mentioning what % of the graduates reported a salary.

UGA law for example reports average private practice salary being 118k without any mention of the percentage of graduate who report. http://www.law.uga.edu/class-2009

Now, I don't mean to single out any one law school but the truth is UGA is simply one of many law schools that mislead with these Employment Statistics advertised on their websites.

Being a science major and having taken Stats as part of my major, I easily remembered that Medians and Averages are meaningless without knowing the sample size. However, for the vast majority of law students whose last math class was probably 5 years ago in High School, they just are not going make that observation right away.

In addition, 9 months employment percentage is also extremely misleading because those figures do not provide a breakdown of jobs requiring a JD, JD preferred, or no degree required. I learned from TLS to look out for this misleading statistic and I am fortunate to have found sites such as TLS and LST. But I know plenty of 0Ls and 1Ls who got higher grades and higher LSAT than I did, but they did not use TLS or LST at all.

If law schools are advertising these stats on their websites, they are obligated to disclose things such as % of graduates reporting and the breakdown of the types of employment (part-time v. Full-time). Students shouldn't have to look on other sites to get these types of information.

All of this being said, I think the plaintiffs have an uphill battle to actually win this type of lawsuit. But at the very least I do hope just the potential of lawsuit will get other law schools to be more transparent and not leave such critical factors out when advertising certain statistics.

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mfeller2
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby mfeller2 » Sat May 28, 2011 3:28 am

This ad told me that I could make a boat load of money by spending some money to listen to some "gurus" talk...so I did. now I'm pissed cuz like I still don have money

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Ikki
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby Ikki » Sat May 28, 2011 4:01 am

Picture of the plantiff, I would fuck her:
--LinkRemoved--

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sat May 28, 2011 4:03 am

i would not

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Ikki
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby Ikki » Sat May 28, 2011 4:10 am

paulinaporizkova wrote:i would not


I have pretty low standards.

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arvcondor
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby arvcondor » Sat May 28, 2011 5:18 am

Ikki wrote:Picture of the plantiff, I would fuck her:
--LinkRemoved--

You're kind of an idiot, aren't you?

SchopenhauerFTW
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Sat May 28, 2011 5:52 am

arvcondor wrote:
Ikki wrote:Picture of the plantiff, I would fuck her:
--LinkRemoved--

You're kind of an idiot, aren't you?

--ImageRemoved--

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Ikki
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Re: Class Action Suit Filed Against Thomas Jefferson Law

Postby Ikki » Sat May 28, 2011 6:49 am

arvcondor wrote:
Ikki wrote:Picture of the plantiff, I would fuck her:
--LinkRemoved--

You're kind of an idiot, aren't you?


I'm just the voice of reason.




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