Fordham ($45k) vs. Cardozo ($81k) Forum

[blsingindisguise]

lolwut.. 2009 was the depth of the crash wasn't it... confused by your logic here... Though I guess the 2009 stats would be based on 2008 interviewing, and at that point the market maybe wasn't totally tanked (though in 2009 I think a lot of those hires were deferred and then eventually no-offered)... If it was bad in 2009 (and it was very bad as far as I know), then expecting things to get back there or better doesn't seem unreasonable to me..

No, 2009 hiring was based on 2007 interviewing. So the economy hadn't even tanked. 2010 hiring was based on 2008 interviewing -- OCI 2008 took place after the stock market had taken its first big dip but not its final crash (which happened in March 2009). Hence OCI 2009 was the first one that took place when it was clear that the economy was in such bad shape. But a lot of class of 2009 hiring was still based on the summer interviewing that had taken place in 2007 -- they were still mostly honoring their commitments to associates. "Deferrals" and "no-offers" didn't become major buzzwords until the following year, so NYC Law is incorrect on that point.

[NYC Law]

lolwut.. 2009 was the depth of the crash wasn't it... confused by your logic here... Though I guess the 2009 stats would be based on 2008 interviewing, and at that point the market maybe wasn't totally tanked (though in 2009 I think a lot of those hires were deferred and then eventually no-offered)... If it was bad in 2009 (and it was very bad as far as I know), then expecting things to get back there or better doesn't seem unreasonable to me..

No, 2009 hiring was based on 2007 interviewing. So the economy hadn't even tanked. 2010 hiring was based on 2008 interviewing -- OCI 2008 took place after the stock market had taken its first big dip but not its final crash (which happened in March 2009). Hence OCI 2009 was the first one that took place when it was clear that the economy was in such bad shape. But a lot of class of 2009 hiring was still based on the summer interviewing that had taken place in 2007 -- they were still mostly honoring their commitments to associates. "Deferrals" and "no-offers" didn't become major buzzwords until the following year, so NYC Law is incorrect on that point.

That would make sense if it weren't for the fact the data doesn't support your claims. The greatest dropoff was for the c/o 2009, while 2008 summer wasn't awful, with associate positions 'wilting' according to the article you cited. But nothing to the magnitude that would support the major dropoff in actual employment per the NLJ250 figures. The only explanation is no-offers and deferments.
I've been going through the NALP data and it's apparent that firms only hire based on current needs, and the summer for their hiring class doesn't mean much.
I can't provide all the data right now because I'm on an Ipad and it's a pain in the ass to flip between screens, but I'll compile data later.

[keg411]

ITE timeline:

Class of 2008 (OCI 06, SA 07) - happy days; everyone gets jobs!

Class of 2009 (OCI 07, SA 08) - did OCI at the height of the boom. Started work at the height of the depression. Some deferrals and no-offers (no-offers were especially prominent in NYC). I'm pretty sure this is the also class that suffered the now-infamous Latham'ing (which would not be reflected in NLJ numbers; although that could be c/o 08).

Class of 2010 (OCI 08, SA 09) - did OCI right before the economy collapsed. Hit the hardest by deferrals and no-offers (no-offers were primarily outside of NYC).

Class of 2011 (OCI 09, SA 10) - this was the worst OCI by far. Because of deferrals the previous year, firms had a backlog that had to be cleared. Therefore, they chose to slash class sizes.

Class of 2012 (OCI 10, SA 11) - improved from the previous year, but mostly in New York. Low hiring numbers from 2011 remained outside of NYC.

Class of 2013 (OCI 11, SA 12) - we'll know in a few months

[NYC Law]

ITE timeline:

Class of 2008 (OCI 06, SA 07) - happy days; everyone gets jobs!

Class of 2009 (OCI 07, SA 08) - did OCI at the height of the boom. Started work at the height of the depression. Some deferrals and no-offers (no-offers were especially prominent in NYC). I'm pretty sure this is the also class that suffered the now-infamous Latham'ing (which would not be reflected in NLJ numbers; although that could be c/o 08).

Class of 2010 (OCI 08, SA 09) - did OCI right before the economy collapsed. Hit the hardest by deferrals and no-offers (no-offers were primarily outside of NYC).

Class of 2011 (OCI 09, SA 10) - this was the worst OCI by far. Because of deferrals the previous year, firms had a backlog that had to be cleared. Therefore, they chose to slash class sizes.

Class of 2012 (OCI 10, SA 11) - improved from the previous year, but mostly in New York. Low hiring numbers from 2011 remained outside of NYC.

Class of 2013 (OCI 11, SA 12) - we'll know in a few months

This all sounds about right.
I still think c/o 2014 can make it back to 09 employment stats at minimum when you take into consideration most schools cutting class sizes and the legal market finally picking up in hiring. - Especially for New York schools where recovery is occurring the most rapidly.

[NYC Law]

I started compiling data on the largest NY firms and.... believe it or not... it looks like employment might actually go up for the class of 2011. It seems ridiculous, but here's my data:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreads ... utput=html

I got a 47% decrease in 2010 OCI, however 2011 expected positions are actually up 6%.

ETA: Much of the increase is probably due to the deferrals - regardless, it looks like hiring is almost at least getting back to 09 levels in New York.

[nireca]

I started compiling data on the largest NY firms and.... believe it or not... it looks like employment might actually go up for the class of 2011. It seems ridiculous, but here's my data:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreads ... utput=html

I got a 47% decrease in 2010 OCI, however 2011 expected positions are actually up 6%.

ETA: Much of the increase is probably due to the deferrals - regardless, it looks like hiring is almost at least getting back to 09 levels in New York.

NYC Law, i love it. just keep up the good work and keep it up on this thread. i want to believe!

btw, if ppl are still voting on this thread im gonna update the OP to reflect that Fordham has offered me a small scholarship of $7.5k/yr without stips. this brings totally COA to $132k at Dozo and $192k at Fordham, before interest.

[NYC Law]

I started compiling data on the largest NY firms and.... believe it or not... it looks like employment might actually go up for the class of 2011. It seems ridiculous, but here's my data:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreads ... utput=html

I got a 47% decrease in 2010 OCI, however 2011 expected positions are actually up 6%.

ETA: Much of the increase is probably due to the deferrals - regardless, it looks like hiring is almost at least getting back to 09 levels in New York.

NYC Law, i love it. just keep up the good work and keep it up on this thread. i want to believe!

btw, if ppl are still voting on this thread im gonna update the OP to reflect that Fordham has offered me a small scholarship of $7.5k/yr without stips. this brings totally COA to $132k at Dozo and $192k at Fordham, before interest.

Go to Fordham. Its worth the extra $60k.

[nireca]

that's where im at right now. if i can get the pops to match the 7.5k/yr that will seal the deal. gl with ur decision man.

[bubbletea]

I'm trying to decide between Fordham (15K) and Cardozo (full ride) right now! What did you decide/are you happy with your decision/what would you recommend?

[mom2law]

No way is Fordham worth that much more than Cardozo. This site is skewed against Cardozo and unreasonably in love with Fordham, which is a very good place but not quite the Nirvana TLS paints it. Just came back from a business trip to TX, for example, spent time with law school faculty and judges in both Dallas and Austin, and was very surprised to cross paths with Cardozo contacts (not that I'd especially pick it for Texas, but just giving an example). Try to ask some people in the real world and not just on here.

[NYC Law]

No way is Fordham worth that much more than Cardozo. This site is skewed against Cardozo and unreasonably in love with Fordham, which is a very good place but not quite the Nirvana TLS paints it. Just came back from a business trip to TX, for example, spent time with law school faculty and judges in both Dallas and Austin, and was very surprised to cross paths with Cardozo contacts (not that I'd especially pick it for Texas, but just giving an example). Try to ask some people in the real world and not just on here.

Heres how cardozo did this summer:
Cardozo: (raw placements/% of Class of 2012)
V10 2 / <1%
V25 9 / 2.5%
V50 14 / 3.9%
V100 20 / 5.7%
NALP 28 / 8.0%


But I guess thems just elitist lies

[timertimer61]

Can you do a break down for Fordham as well?

No way is Fordham worth that much more than Cardozo. This site is skewed against Cardozo and unreasonably in love with Fordham, which is a very good place but not quite the Nirvana TLS paints it. Just came back from a business trip to TX, for example, spent time with law school faculty and judges in both Dallas and Austin, and was very surprised to cross paths with Cardozo contacts (not that I'd especially pick it for Texas, but just giving an example). Try to ask some people in the real world and not just on here.

Heres how cardozo did this summer:
Cardozo: (raw placements/% of Class of 2012)
V10 2 / <1%
V25 9 / 2.5%
V50 14 / 3.9%
V100 20 / 5.7%
NALP 28 / 8.0%



But I guess thems just elitist lies

[NYC Law]

Can you do a break down for Fordham as well?

Don't have it, unfortunately.
Here's Columbia for reference:
v10=18%, v25=43%, v50=63%, v100=74%. NALP=~78%

If I had to guess, Fordham is probably 25-40% NALP, but that figure is out of my ass.

In good times Fordham had 42% big law placement, class of 2010 had about 25% placement.

[blacklawboss]

Can you do a break down for Fordham as well?

Don't have it, unfortunately.
Here's Columbia for reference:
v10=18%, v25=43%, v50=63%, v100=74%. NALP=~78%

If I had to guess, Fordham is probably 25-40% NALP, but that figure is out of my ass.

In good times Fordham had 42% big law placement, class of 2010 had about 25% placement.

NYC law I love you man, but to compare Columbia stats to Fordham stats is no bueno. You know better

[NYC Law]

Can you do a break down for Fordham as well?

Don't have it, unfortunately.
Here's Columbia for reference:
v10=18%, v25=43%, v50=63%, v100=74%. NALP=~78%

If I had to guess, Fordham is probably 25-40% NALP, but that figure is out of my ass.

In good times Fordham had 42% big law placement, class of 2010 had about 25% placement.

NYC law I love you man, but to compare Columbia stats to Fordham stats is no bueno. You know better

It wasn't my intent, that's why I admitted Fordham is likely somewhere in the 30s as compared to CLS which is closer to 80%.

Cardozo on a scholarship isn't bad if you're from NYC, already have a place, and can cover COL (or most of it), but the majority of TLSers aren't in that situation and will have to take out full COA for at least the first year.

Full COA for Cardozo is $212,049.00. After an 81k scholarship that still leaves you with $131,049 in debt and a <10-15% shot at big law.

If you're borrowing more than six figures for law school either way, may as well at least go with the school with a more reasonable shot at biglaw.

[NYC Law]

And 25% doesn't justify the debt differential....that was my point.
You make a negative statement about Cardozo, don't know the stats for the second half of the comparison, and pick...let's see....Columbia as a point of reference. You jokingly admit you pull stats out of your ass. Nothing elitist about that!

I've had my career, made my money, and retired...multiple houses, no debt, good life, generous to the kids and grandkids. But don't take the financial judgment of someone like me as worth anything when you can lead your fellow applicants/students off a cliff. The majority of people who follow the CW of this site are headed toward non-dischargeable financial ruin.

lol coming from the person advocating going to Cardozo at a $130k COA.

[blacklawboss]

I'm going to Cardozo, but only after they upped my scholly to 114k vs 40k Fordham. I was in pt eve at Fordham vs full time Dozo. I chose the $$$ and the extra year of earning power vs Fordham. Super hard withdrawal, but the Faculty and staff at Dozo are tremendous.

Edit: but at ft vs ft and only 60k $ diff I may choose Fordham, but that still a lot of debt for anyone.

[nireca]

I'm going to Cardozo, but only after they upped my scholly to 114k vs 40k Fordham. I was in pt eve at Fordham vs full time Dozo. I chose the $$$ and the extra year of earning power vs Fordham. Super hard withdrawal, but the Faculty and staff at Dozo are tremendous.

Edit: but at ft vs ft and only 60k $ diff I may choose Fordham, but that still a lot of debt for anyone.

Debt difference is actually less than $40k. My dad is all about the Jesuits so he offered to match the Fordham scholly when he found out that I had been accepted. That brings Fordham COA down to $170k vs Dozo's $133k.

For the extra $37k Fordham is worth it to me. I'm not happy about the debt but the increased likelihood of a Big Law job justifies it.

[blacklawboss]

I'm going to Cardozo, but only after they upped my scholly to 114k vs 40k Fordham. I was in pt eve at Fordham vs full time Dozo. I chose the $$$ and the extra year of earning power vs Fordham. Super hard withdrawal, but the Faculty and staff at Dozo are tremendous.

Edit: but at ft vs ft and only 60k $ diff I may choose Fordham, but that still a lot of debt for anyone.

Debt difference is actually less than $40k. My dad is all about the Jesuits so he offered to match the Fordham scholly when he found out that I had been accepted. That brings Fordham COA down to $170k vs Dozo's $133k.

For the extra $37k Fordham is worth it to me. I'm not happy about the debt but the increased likelihood of a Big Law job justifies it.

Right go to Fordham GL

[Canuck10]

I'm going to Cardozo, but only after they upped my scholly to 114k vs 40k Fordham. I was in pt eve at Fordham vs full time Dozo. I chose the $$$ and the extra year of earning power vs Fordham. Super hard withdrawal, but the Faculty and staff at Dozo are tremendous.

Edit: but at ft vs ft and only 60k $ diff I may choose Fordham, but that still a lot of debt for anyone.

Debt difference is actually less than $40k. My dad is all about the Jesuits so he offered to match the Fordham scholly when he found out that I had been accepted. That brings Fordham COA down to $170k vs Dozo's $133k.

For the extra $37k Fordham is worth it to me. I'm not happy about the debt but the increased likelihood of a Big Law job justifies it.

Overall, that is probably the right decision. You do know, however, that Big Law jobs require 90+ hour work weeks right? So forget weekend nights out, forget relationships, forget vacation (aside for maybe Christmas and New Year's Eve). If you know this and are OK with it -- good for you.

[Grizz]

I'm going to Cardozo, but only after they upped my scholly to 114k vs 40k Fordham. I was in pt eve at Fordham vs full time Dozo. I chose the $$$ and the extra year of earning power vs Fordham. Super hard withdrawal, but the Faculty and staff at Dozo are tremendous.

Edit: but at ft vs ft and only 60k $ diff I may choose Fordham, but that still a lot of debt for anyone.

Debt difference is actually less than $40k. My dad is all about the Jesuits so he offered to match the Fordham scholly when he found out that I had been accepted. That brings Fordham COA down to $170k vs Dozo's $133k.

For the extra $37k Fordham is worth it to me. I'm not happy about the debt but the increased likelihood of a Big Law job justifies it.

Overall, that is probably the right decision. You do know, however, that Big Law jobs require 90+ hour work weeks right? So forget weekend nights out, forget relationships, forget vacation (aside for maybe Christmas and New Year's Eve). If you know this and are OK with it -- good for you.

This post was a valuable addition to a thread that is 4 months old and this forum as a whole.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

[blacklawboss]

Fordham #29 (-1) Dozo 56 (+6)= CASE CLOSED!

[johansantana21]

I think the consensus is that Fordham at sticker is very risky. High COA coupled with about a 25% shot at getting a job that can service the debt. Also, I think Fordham is known to be stingy with money, and law schools in general are stingy with students off their waitlist.

Is 81k the total scholarship from Cardozo, or the total COA?

Really there's about a 40-50% chance of getting a job that pays $145k coming out of Fordham. Just a 25% chance of getting an NLJ 250 job, but many non NLJ 250 firms in NYC still pay six figures.

Did you fail math?

[blacklawboss]

I'm going to Cardozo, but only after they upped my scholly to 114k vs 40k Fordham. I was in pt eve at Fordham vs full time Dozo. I chose the $$$ and the extra year of earning power vs Fordham. Super hard withdrawal, but the Faculty and staff at Dozo are tremendous.

Edit: but at ft vs ft and only 60k $ diff I may choose Fordham, but that still a lot of debt for anyone.

Debt difference is actually less than $40k. My dad is all about the Jesuits so he offered to match the Fordham scholly when he found out that I had been accepted. That brings Fordham COA down to $170k vs Dozo's $133k.

For the extra $37k Fordham is worth it to me. I'm not happy about the debt but the increased likelihood of a Big Law job justifies it.

Overall, that is probably the right decision. You do know, however, that Big Law jobs require 90+ hour work weeks right? So forget weekend nights out, forget relationships, forget vacation (aside for maybe Christmas and New Year's Eve). If you know this and are OK with it -- good for you.

This post was a valuable addition to a thread that is 4 months old and this forum as a whole.

Did I mention that I ended up at Fordham? ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIwxIobtab4