Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school?

University of Michigan (15K a year)
40
33%
Northwestern University (20K a year)
18
15%
University of Chicago
51
41%
University of Virginia
14
11%
 
Total votes: 123

BigRed1988
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Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby BigRed1988 » Sun May 22, 2011 3:19 pm

Looking to go Biglaw after graduating for at least a few years, and NOT IN MIDWEST. Either coast is fine, but East Coast would be better (NYC, DC). Want to be able to keep options open going into law school. One year out of UG right now, will be entering in the fall.

Is the difference in recruitment between UChicago and the others enough to justify choosing it over the relatively small scholarships? Would UVa's location make it a better choice than Chicago for practicing on the coast despite being ranked a little lower?


At this point all options are still available, but need to make a decision very quickly. Opinions appreciated.

BigRed1988
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby BigRed1988 » Mon May 23, 2011 9:01 am

Looks like Chicago and Michigan are front-runners, but neck-to-neck at this point. Anybody want to elaborate on why they chose what they did, or try to dissuade from one in particular?

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby paulinaporizkova » Mon May 23, 2011 9:35 am

what's your beef with the midwest?

BigRed1988
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby BigRed1988 » Mon May 23, 2011 9:43 am

No huge problem but grew up in Midwest and finally got out to go to school. Family scattered to the coasts along with most of my friends and I don't want to go back for an extended amount of time. Didn't mean to be so emphatic but figured most people would gloss over the explanation when voting and that seemed like the most important consideration with these particular schools so I wanted it to catch attention.

bdubs
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby bdubs » Mon May 23, 2011 10:08 am

With those scholarships Michigan is equal if not lower cost over three years than Northwestern. It is also a more prestigious school than Northwestern and has more geographic reach. I think Michigan is a no brainer, unless you think that you really want to shoot for a very high end firm or clerkship, in which case I would choose Chicago.

09042014
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby 09042014 » Mon May 23, 2011 11:02 am

U Chicago. 45K isn't enough to make Michigan.

dabbadon8
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby dabbadon8 » Mon May 23, 2011 11:23 am

Desert Fox wrote:U Chicago. 45K isn't enough to make Michigan.


Yeah objectively speaking, but it is enough to justify going to mich if you like it better. I would chose between those two whichever you like more. I think those two schools have very different feels.

flexityflex86
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby flexityflex86 » Mon May 23, 2011 11:45 am

I think 45k def makes it a conversation.

09042014
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby 09042014 » Mon May 23, 2011 11:55 am

flexityflex86 wrote:I think 45k def makes it a conversation.


I don't think there is a wrong choice between Uchi, Mich, NW here.

Uchi wins on biglaw placement.

Mich/NW tie on cost/placement

Either of the three can win on quality of life depending on what you like. If you like urban schools, NW wins. If you like college downs, Mich wins, and if you like a little bit of both, but lean more towards city, then UChi.

I'd say tie goes to the better placing school. Otherwise the OP should consider nontangibles.

flexityflex86
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby flexityflex86 » Mon May 23, 2011 12:00 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:I think 45k def makes it a conversation.


I don't think there is a wrong choice between Uchi, Mich, NW here.

Uchi wins on biglaw placement.

Mich/NW tie on cost/placement

Either of the three can win on quality of life depending on what you like. If you like urban schools, NW wins. If you like college downs, Mich wins, and if you like a little bit of both, but lean more towards city, then UChi.

I'd say tie goes to the better placing school. Otherwise the OP should consider nontangibles.

I'd imagine UMich would have a more collegiate feel.

I think UVA should be out of the running here. After Chicago, all of these schools are = with maybe a tiny drop off into NW.

BigRed1988
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby BigRed1988 » Mon May 23, 2011 12:22 pm

Just to expand a little further:

I feel like I would prefer smaller class sizes, but does Michigan's wider alumni base balance this out?

Is UChicago extremely cut-throat and conservative? I can get competitive but this isn't really how I would describe myself. Is that reputation overblown or pretty realistic? Does it affect what opportunities are available to grads (who comes for OCI, etc) or is the quality of the school all that matters?

I'm somewhat debt averse, but will not be carrying any UG debt into law school so I am in a position where I can afford to take on some debt if I believe it will pay off.

People have mentioned that Chicago would be the more appropriate choice if I were planning on pursuing a very prestigious clerkship or a position with a top firm, but if I were to end up in the middle of the pack at every school, would Chicago put me in a much better position or are the schools roughly equivalent at that point? I don't plan on doing poorly obviously, but it needs to be a consideration.

I have a slight preference for being in a city but I think I could be perfectly happy at either. That being said, I have been told that Hyde Park in Chicago is really a poor area to be. I would like access to the city, but if the area is really so bad and it's not easy to get to the better part of the city then that advantage may be mitigated. I know the winters in both Chicago and Michigan are rough but is either worse?


Obviously there are a million factors so nobody can address all of my personal preferences, but if people give their opinions and justify them using their own personal preferences maybe I can align mine.

Thanks for insights.

09042014
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby 09042014 » Mon May 23, 2011 12:28 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:I'd imagine UMich would have a more collegiate feel.

I think UVA should be out of the running here. After Chicago, all of these schools are = with maybe a tiny drop off into NW.


Most Michigan 1L live in dorms, eat at a cafeteria, and are on campus 24/7. If that's the lifestyle OP wants he can have it at Mich. I hear it gets a little high schoolish, but some people prefer it.

I'd imagine UChi is almost as collegiate. Hyde Park is somewhat separated from the rest of the city. But also, if you don't want to be on campus, you have an entire city.

bdubs
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby bdubs » Mon May 23, 2011 12:32 pm

BigRed1988 wrote:People have mentioned that Chicago would be the more appropriate choice if I were planning on pursuing a very prestigious clerkship or a position with a top firm, but if I were to end up in the middle of the pack at every school, would Chicago put me in a much better position or are the schools roughly equivalent at that point? I don't plan on doing poorly obviously, but it needs to be a consideration.


Yes, but this needs to be directed more towards whether those slightly better opportunities are worth $45k to you. Also, think about what your preferences for being in a city mean relative to U of Chicago, which is in "the city" but isn't really a city atmosphere.

BigRed1988
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby BigRed1988 » Mon May 23, 2011 2:32 pm

bdubs wrote:
BigRed1988 wrote:People have mentioned that Chicago would be the more appropriate choice if I were planning on pursuing a very prestigious clerkship or a position with a top firm, but if I were to end up in the middle of the pack at every school, would Chicago put me in a much better position or are the schools roughly equivalent at that point? I don't plan on doing poorly obviously, but it needs to be a consideration.


Yes, but this needs to be directed more towards whether those slightly better opportunities are worth $45k to you. Also, think about what your preferences for being in a city mean relative to U of Chicago, which is in "the city" but isn't really a city atmosphere.



This is a good point. Can anybody speak to exactly how significant the differences for the medians would be between the schools in terms of available opportunities?

09042014
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby 09042014 » Mon May 23, 2011 2:35 pm

BigRed1988 wrote:
bdubs wrote:
BigRed1988 wrote:People have mentioned that Chicago would be the more appropriate choice if I were planning on pursuing a very prestigious clerkship or a position with a top firm, but if I were to end up in the middle of the pack at every school, would Chicago put me in a much better position or are the schools roughly equivalent at that point? I don't plan on doing poorly obviously, but it needs to be a consideration.


Yes, but this needs to be directed more towards whether those slightly better opportunities are worth $45k to you. Also, think about what your preferences for being in a city mean relative to U of Chicago, which is in "the city" but isn't really a city atmosphere.



This is a good point. Can anybody speak to exactly how significant the differences for the medians would be between the schools in terms of available opportunities?


rank.NU = rank.Mich = rank.Uchi - 15-20%.

Going to Uchi is like getting an extra 15-20% more class rank.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Mon May 23, 2011 6:45 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
BigRed1988 wrote:
bdubs wrote:
BigRed1988 wrote:People have mentioned that Chicago would be the more appropriate choice if I were planning on pursuing a very prestigious clerkship or a position with a top firm, but if I were to end up in the middle of the pack at every school, would Chicago put me in a much better position or are the schools roughly equivalent at that point? I don't plan on doing poorly obviously, but it needs to be a consideration.


Yes, but this needs to be directed more towards whether those slightly better opportunities are worth $45k to you. Also, think about what your preferences for being in a city mean relative to U of Chicago, which is in "the city" but isn't really a city atmosphere.



This is a good point. Can anybody speak to exactly how significant the differences for the medians would be between the schools in terms of available opportunities?


rank.NU = rank.Mich = rank.Uchi - 15-20%.

Going to Uchi is like getting an extra 15-20% more class rank.

In NLJ placement percentage, sure. But statistics don't actually correspond to a perfect placement comparison like that - virtually nobody goes to Chicago for PI, and I can personally count 30-40 good/decent friends off the top of my head who didn't even consider doing OCI because they're deadset on PI (and were that way well before 1st semester 1L grades came out). Chicago still has an advantage at median, but I don't think a simple Michigan +15-20% equation works as well as you suggest.

09042014
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby 09042014 » Mon May 23, 2011 6:52 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
BigRed1988 wrote:
bdubs wrote:
Yes, but this needs to be directed more towards whether those slightly better opportunities are worth $45k to you. Also, think about what your preferences for being in a city mean relative to U of Chicago, which is in "the city" but isn't really a city atmosphere.



This is a good point. Can anybody speak to exactly how significant the differences for the medians would be between the schools in terms of available opportunities?


rank.NU = rank.Mich = rank.Uchi - 15-20%.

Going to Uchi is like getting an extra 15-20% more class rank.

In NLJ placement percentage, sure. But statistics don't actually correspond to a perfect placement comparison like that - virtually nobody goes to Chicago for PI, and I can personally count 30-40 good/decent friends off the top of my head who didn't even consider doing OCI because they're deadset on PI (and were that way well before 1st semester 1L grades came out). Chicago still has an advantage at median, but I don't think a simple Michigan +15-20% equation works as well as you suggest.


I was basing more on rumors from the last few OCI about the number of people getting offers from OCI. I very much doubt that Michigan has a statistically relevant larger number of PI people. Why would they? Michigan isn't particularly known for it.

20% is probably too high. I'd guess around 15%.

Add in a few percent for the amount you'd do better at Michigan and it's probably more like 10%. So yea you are probably right.

roger8219
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby roger8219 » Mon May 23, 2011 7:07 pm

I spent a year living in Hyde Park and personally hated it. I'm not sure what law students do, but the majority of PhD students I knew got out of there after the first or second year.

fingersxd
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby fingersxd » Tue May 24, 2011 2:27 pm

I would lean slightly toward UChi given it's higher placement numbers (10-15% difference at the median is susbtantial). That said, Michigan w/45k would not be a bad choice at all. Truth be told, you really should visit both (you can do it in one trip) and see where you are more comfortable and think you would be happier. That will probably play a big role in your success.

I would say NW and UVA are out.

bubbletea
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby bubbletea » Mon May 30, 2011 3:16 pm

DON'T GO TO UVA! Unless you are in the top 1/3, you can pretty much rule out big law.

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ahduth
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby ahduth » Tue May 31, 2011 8:14 am

BigRed1988 wrote:Would UVa's location make it a better choice than Chicago for practicing on the coast despite being ranked a little lower?


No. Chicago is the brand name here. Go T6.

edit: Hell, after seeing the money UofC threw at some people coming off the WL, I'm sorry I withdrew so quickly. I wanted to get out of the city (of Chicago) for awhile too, but UofC is top notch. Michigan is significantly less expensive than UofC with the COL thrown in, so... yeah. The poll looks about right.

bdubs
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby bdubs » Tue May 31, 2011 9:35 am

ahduth wrote:
BigRed1988 wrote:Would UVa's location make it a better choice than Chicago for practicing on the coast despite being ranked a little lower?


No. Chicago is the brand name here. Go T6.

edit: Hell, after seeing the money UofC threw at some people coming off the WL, I'm sorry I withdrew so quickly. I wanted to get out of the city (of Chicago) for awhile too, but UofC is top notch. Michigan is significantly less expensive than UofC with the COL thrown in, so... yeah. The poll looks about right.


+1

bubbletea
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby bubbletea » Tue May 31, 2011 9:08 pm

DO NOT GO TO UVA. I'm friends with many disgruntled 3Ls who are jobless and are living off of $13,000 "fellowships" UVA gives them in order to artificially boost their at graduation employment rate.

IF YOU GO TO UVA YOU WILL SEVERELY REDUCE YOUR CHANCES OF BIG LAW. CHICAGO IS A MUCH BETTER BET.

protein
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby protein » Tue May 31, 2011 9:33 pm

bubbletea wrote:DO NOT GO TO UVA. I'm friends with many disgruntled 3Ls who are jobless and are living off of $13,000 "fellowships" UVA gives them in order to artificially boost their at graduation employment rate.

IF YOU GO TO UVA YOU WILL SEVERELY REDUCE YOUR CHANCES OF BIG LAW. CHICAGO IS A MUCH BETTER BET.


christ do you post this in every thread that mentions UVA?

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ahduth
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Re: Mich ($) vs. UChicago vs. NU ($$) vs. UVa

Postby ahduth » Tue May 31, 2011 9:45 pm

Lulz, my friend gave me the composition of Wilkie's incoming class for the New York office:

one cornell,
one u chicago,
4 nyu,
4 harvard,
and 5 columbia.

Yep, that's one (1) spot that's not from the T6. While it should be better for the class of 2014, this kind of stuff is stark evidence in favor of the T6 school.




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