Emory vs. Fordham

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gobucks101
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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby gobucks101 » Mon May 16, 2011 4:48 pm

bk1 wrote:
In 2009 probably around 60% of Emory's class. For Fordham it's difficult to say but it looks like around 50%. Things are worse now.


93% of Emory's 2009 class reported their salary 9 months out. Of that 93%, 69.10% are in law firms. That is 64.263% of Emory's total class. 72.96% of that 64.263% are working at firms that have a salary range of 70k-170k. That comes out to 46.88% of the TOTAL class of 2009 making 70k+ at firms. Now, keep in mind that a few of those in the 1-25 sized firms are making over 60k, as seen by the top salary of 100k at firms staffed with 2-10 attorneys with a 55k average and a range up to 90k at firms the size of 11-25 with average of 60k. Obviously averages are misleading but should not be entirely discounted. Now don't forget about those who are going public interest. That comprised 3.93% of that 93% (3.65 of total class) and had a range of 42k-65k. Given how interesting those jobs are, Emory LRAP and the federal loan forgiveness program, I think those should be included in the life is not over category. You got another 5.06% of that 93% (4.7% total class) in Govt. work and 8.43% of that 93% (7.84% of total class) in clerkships, 9.55% of that 93% (8.81% of total class) who were mostly JD/MBA's working in business, and you see that TLS's Mayan forcast about Emory is overrated.

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bk1
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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby bk1 » Mon May 16, 2011 4:52 pm

gobucks101 wrote: 93% of Emory's 2009 class reported their salary 9 months out. Of that 93%, 69.10% are in law firms. That is 64.263% of Emory's total class. 72.96% of that 64.263% are working at firms that have a salary range of 70k-170k. That comes out to 46.88% of the TOTAL class of 2009 making 70k+ at firms. Now, keep in mind that a few of those in the 1-25 sized firms are making over 60k, as seen by the top salary of 100k at firms staffed with 2-10 attorneys with a 55k average and a range up to 90k at firms the size of 11-25 with average of 60k. Obviously averages are misleading but should not be entirely discounted. Now don't forget about those who are going public interest. That comprised 3.93% of that 93% (3.65 of total class) and had a range of 42k-65k. Given how interesting those jobs are, Emory LRAP and the federal loan forgiveness program, I think those should be included in the life is not over category. You got another 5.06% of that 93% (4.7% total class) in Govt. work and 8.43% of that 93% (7.84% of total class) in clerkships, 9.55% of that 93% (8.81% of total class) who were mostly JD/MBA's working in business, and you see that TLS's Mayan forcast about Emory is overrated.


Just gonna go ahead and leave this here: --LinkRemoved--

30% of Emory's 2009 class couldn't get full time jobs as lawyers within 9 months. Sounds like the Mayans were right to me.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby FGCUguy123 » Mon May 16, 2011 4:54 pm

gobucks101 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
In 2009 probably around 60% of Emory's class. For Fordham it's difficult to say but it looks like around 50%. Things are worse now.


93% of Emory's 2009 class reported their salary 9 months out. Of that 93%, 69.10% are in law firms. That is 64.263% of Emory's total class. 72.96% of that 64.263% are working at firms that have a salary range of 70k-170k. That comes out to 46.88% of the TOTAL class of 2009 making 70k+ at firms. Now, keep in mind that a few of those in the 1-25 sized firms are making over 60k, as seen by the top salary of 100k at firms staffed with 2-10 attorneys with a 55k average and a range up to 90k at firms the size of 11-25 with average of 60k. Obviously averages are misleading but should not be entirely discounted. Now don't forget about those who are going public interest. That comprised 3.93% of that 93% (3.65 of total class) and had a range of 42k-65k. Given how interesting those jobs are, Emory LRAP and the federal loan forgiveness program, I think those should be included in the life is not over category. You got another 5.06% of that 93% (4.7% total class) in Govt. work and 8.43% of that 93% (7.84% of total class) in clerkships, 9.55% of that 93% (8.81% of total class) who were mostly JD/MBA's working in business, and you see that TLS's Mayan forcast about Emory is overrated.


Wow! were did these statistics come from? If this is the case....

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby FGCUguy123 » Mon May 16, 2011 4:56 pm

bk1 wrote:
gobucks101 wrote: 93% of Emory's 2009 class reported their salary 9 months out. Of that 93%, 69.10% are in law firms. That is 64.263% of Emory's total class. 72.96% of that 64.263% are working at firms that have a salary range of 70k-170k. That comes out to 46.88% of the TOTAL class of 2009 making 70k+ at firms. Now, keep in mind that a few of those in the 1-25 sized firms are making over 60k, as seen by the top salary of 100k at firms staffed with 2-10 attorneys with a 55k average and a range up to 90k at firms the size of 11-25 with average of 60k. Obviously averages are misleading but should not be entirely discounted. Now don't forget about those who are going public interest. That comprised 3.93% of that 93% (3.65 of total class) and had a range of 42k-65k. Given how interesting those jobs are, Emory LRAP and the federal loan forgiveness program, I think those should be included in the life is not over category. You got another 5.06% of that 93% (4.7% total class) in Govt. work and 8.43% of that 93% (7.84% of total class) in clerkships, 9.55% of that 93% (8.81% of total class) who were mostly JD/MBA's working in business, and you see that TLS's Mayan forcast about Emory is overrated.


Just gonna go ahead and leave this here: --LinkRemoved--

30% of Emory's 2009 class couldn't get full time jobs as lawyers within 9 months. Sounds like the Mayans were right to me.


30%? That's nothing.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby MrAnon » Mon May 16, 2011 4:59 pm

93% of Emory's 2009 class reported their salary 9 months out. Of that 93%, 69.10% are in law firms. That is 64.263% of Emory's total class. 72.96% of that 64.263% are working at firms that have a salary range of 70k-170k. That comes out to 46.88% of the TOTAL class of 2009 making 70k+ at firms. Now, keep in mind that a few of those in the 1-25 sized firms are making over 60k, as seen by the top salary of 100k at firms staffed with 2-10 attorneys with a 55k average and a range up to 90k at firms the size of 11-25 with average of 60k. Obviously averages are misleading but should not be entirely discounted. Now don't forget about those who are going public interest. That comprised 3.93% of that 93% (3.65 of total class) and had a range of 42k-65k. Given how interesting those jobs are, Emory LRAP and the federal loan forgiveness program, I think those should be included in the life is not over category. You got another 5.06% of that 93% (4.7% total class) in Govt. work and 8.43% of that 93% (7.84% of total class) in clerkships, 9.55% of that 93% (8.81% of total class) who were mostly JD/MBA's working in business, and you see that TLS's Mayan forcast about Emory is overrated.



Wow that's a lot of statistics. So 36% of Emory's class didn't end up at law firms. I wonder what percentage of the 64% were permanently employed versus temps at law firms.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby gobucks101 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:00 pm

http://www.law.emory.edu/fileadmin/care ... 5-2011.pdf

Where is this 30%? That site says 87.1% employed within 9 months, 25th percentile salary at 75k. It is ok to be wrong

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby gobucks101 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:01 pm

MrAnon wrote:
Wow that's a lot of statistics. So 36% of Emory's class didn't end up at law firms. I wonder what percentage of the 64% were permanently employed versus temps at law firms.


Yea believe it or not some people go to law school to work in things like DA offices and PD offices. People who get JD/MBAs might actually work in a corporate environment. Shocking.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby FGCUguy123 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:02 pm

gobucks101 wrote:http://www.law.emory.edu/fileadmin/career_services/LYT_Revamp/Employment_Statistics_LYT/2009_Employment_Report_03-15-2011.pdf

Where is this 30%? That site says 87.1% employed within 9 months, 25th percentile salary at 75k. It is ok to be wrong


"69.10% law firms"

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby FGCUguy123 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:03 pm

gobucks101 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Wow that's a lot of statistics. So 36% of Emory's class didn't end up at law firms. I wonder what percentage of the 64% were permanently employed versus temps at law firms.


Yea believe it or not some people go to law school to work in things like DA offices and PD offices. People who get JD/MBAs might actually work in a corporate environment. Shocking.


+1

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby gobucks101 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:03 pm

Ah so that is the 30% he was referencing. I forgot that ADAs and PDs weren't full time lawyers.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby FGCUguy123 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:04 pm

MrAnon wrote:
93% of Emory's 2009 class reported their salary 9 months out. Of that 93%, 69.10% are in law firms. That is 64.263% of Emory's total class. 72.96% of that 64.263% are working at firms that have a salary range of 70k-170k. That comes out to 46.88% of the TOTAL class of 2009 making 70k+ at firms. Now, keep in mind that a few of those in the 1-25 sized firms are making over 60k, as seen by the top salary of 100k at firms staffed with 2-10 attorneys with a 55k average and a range up to 90k at firms the size of 11-25 with average of 60k. Obviously averages are misleading but should not be entirely discounted. Now don't forget about those who are going public interest. That comprised 3.93% of that 93% (3.65 of total class) and had a range of 42k-65k. Given how interesting those jobs are, Emory LRAP and the federal loan forgiveness program, I think those should be included in the life is not over category. You got another 5.06% of that 93% (4.7% total class) in Govt. work and 8.43% of that 93% (7.84% of total class) in clerkships, 9.55% of that 93% (8.81% of total class) who were mostly JD/MBA's working in business, and you see that TLS's Mayan forcast about Emory is overrated.



Wow that's a lot of statistics. So 36% of Emory's class didn't end up at law firms. I wonder what percentage of the 64% were permanently employed versus temps at law firms.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby FGCUguy123 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:05 pm

gobucks101 wrote:Ah so that is the 30% he was referencing. I forgot that ADAs and PDs weren't full time lawyers.


Yeah...they flip burgers.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby bk1 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:14 pm

gobucks101 wrote:Emory 2009 Data Report

Where is this 30%? That site says 87.1% employed within 9 months, 25th percentile salary at 75k. It is ok to be wrong


30% is the number that Emory reported to USNWR as linked from here: --LinkRemoved--

The link you have here is probably gaming that in some way. I can already see that their employment link doesn't count people who are going for a graduate degree. It probably is also rosier than reality because they do some creative math by not counting people who are working part time and only factoring the full timers.

You're misinterpreting my argument. I'm not saying that the 30% from Emory's report that aren't in firms (e.g. ADAs) are not full time, bar required jobs, because they are. But obviously Emory is doing some creative math to get their numbers to appear better than they are, the most glaring of which is cutting out the people who went back to school. We are arguing past each other because we are using different sources of information. However they both come from Emory itself although one gets handed to USNWR and is then culled by LST.

Considering I don't think Emory is lying to USNWR and that 30% not being full time lawyers is about par for the course at some of the better regional schools (look at schools like BC/WUSTL/GW which are at 20%, or Fordham which is 25%, etc), I really do believe that 30% of Emory's 2009 class did not find full time lawyering jobs within 9 months.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby FGCUguy123 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:39 pm

bk1 wrote:
gobucks101 wrote:Emory 2009 Data Report

Where is this 30%? That site says 87.1% employed within 9 months, 25th percentile salary at 75k. It is ok to be wrong


30% is the number that Emory reported to USNWR as linked from here: --LinkRemoved--

The link you have here is probably gaming that in some way. I can already see that their employment link doesn't count people who are going for a graduate degree. It probably is also rosier than reality because they do some creative math by not counting people who are working part time and only factoring the full timers.

You're misinterpreting my argument. I'm not saying that the 30% from Emory's report that aren't in firms (e.g. ADAs) are not full time, bar required jobs, because they are. But obviously Emory is doing some creative math to get their numbers to appear better than they are, the most glaring of which is cutting out the people who went back to school. We are arguing past each other because we are using different sources of information. However they both come from Emory itself although one gets handed to USNWR and is then culled by LST.

Considering I don't think Emory is lying to USNWR and that 30% not being full time lawyers is about par for the course at some of the better regional schools (look at schools like BC/WUSTL/GW which are at 20%, or Fordham which is 25%, etc), I really do believe that 30% of Emory's 2009 class did not find full time lawyering jobs within 9 months.


If I remember, your argument was "Sounds like the Mayans were right to me." 1/3 not employed is hardly a disaster scenario. That's all I'm saying.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby Grizz » Mon May 16, 2011 5:47 pm

FGCUguy123 wrote:If I remember, your argument was "Sounds like the Mayans were right to me." 1/3 not employed is hardly a disaster scenario. That's all I'm saying.


I didn't read the stats above, but how the fuck is that NOT a disaster scenario.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby MrAnon » Mon May 16, 2011 5:50 pm

gobucks101 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Wow that's a lot of statistics. So 36% of Emory's class didn't end up at law firms. I wonder what percentage of the 64% were permanently employed versus temps at law firms.


Yea believe it or not some people go to law school to work in things like DA offices and PD offices. People who get JD/MBAs might actually work in a corporate environment. Shocking.


It is shocking that someone would take on six figure debt to work in a DAs office.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby FGCUguy123 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:55 pm

rad law wrote:
FGCUguy123 wrote:If I remember, your argument was "Sounds like the Mayans were right to me." 1/3 not employed is hardly a disaster scenario. That's all I'm saying.


I didn't read the stats above, but how the fuck is that NOT a disaster scenario.


haha..meaning I thought it was 40% earlier. I'm being selfish here. I'm not worried lol.
If you are paying over 100k, worry. I'm not.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby FGCUguy123 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:56 pm

MrAnon wrote:
gobucks101 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Wow that's a lot of statistics. So 36% of Emory's class didn't end up at law firms. I wonder what percentage of the 64% were permanently employed versus temps at law firms.


Yea believe it or not some people go to law school to work in things like DA offices and PD offices. People who get JD/MBAs might actually work in a corporate environment. Shocking.


It is shocking that someone would take on six figure debt to work in a DAs office.

How long do people usually take out a loan for?

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby BruceWayne » Mon May 16, 2011 6:04 pm

MrAnon wrote:It is shocking that someone would take on six figure debt to work in a DAs office.


Not really. When you combine the PLSF program with many schools LRAP it's a great deal. Particularly when your other options are working at the mall or a commission only job (these are often the only options for students with bachelors degrees straight out of college). In addition, many ADA jobs start out at 50K with salaries going up to 100K over time. Add in the chance to become a AUSA at some point and you've got a heck of a better package than putting in overtime at the local Macy's or getting an entry level rep spot at Hertz.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Mon May 16, 2011 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby Robespierre » Mon May 16, 2011 6:05 pm

dpk711 wrote:Robespierre is obviously a Fordham/Emory law student trying to defend his 200K investment.


No, not even close.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby flexityflex86 » Mon May 16, 2011 6:13 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
MrAnon wrote:It is shocking that someone would take on six figure debt to work in a DAs office.


Not really. When you combine the PLSF program with many schools LRAP it's a great deal. Particularly when your other options are working at the mall or a commission only job (these are often the only options for students with bachelors degrees straight out of college). In addition, many ADA jobs start out at 50K with salaries going up to 100K over time. Add in the chance to become a AUSA at some point and you've got a heck of a better package than putting in overtime at the local Macy's or getting an entry level rep spot at Hertz.

I think Anon is overly pessimistic, but not everyone needs to work at Macy's or Hertz. The problem with a lot of these high LSAT people is that while they are aware they are substantially more intelligent than the average big fish, they fail to man up and take that big fish's business or just do what he does better and more intelligently. Working at Macy's is a substitute for not being able to hustle, build and conquer.
Last edited by flexityflex86 on Mon May 16, 2011 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby gobucks101 » Mon May 16, 2011 6:13 pm

Bk,

You make some good points and Emory very likely could be playing with their numbers. I posted here based on the ongoing theme of this thread that only 40% of Emory grads are not wanting to buy a gun. This may or may not have been the intention of you, though it certainly was of Anon. Using LST here is what we know:

87.1% reported as employed at 9 months (4.1% of the unemployed were seeking another degree). 78.9% of grads went into the private sector and 89% of that 78.9% reported their salary, so 61.3% reported their private salary . Of that 61.3%, the 25% quartile for salary was 75k. That means that 75% of that 61.3% of the entire class is making at least 75k in private practice. That comes out to 46% of Emory's class of 2009 making 75k+ within 9 months, in private practice. Now, another 5% are Article 3 clerks, so that makes 51% of total graduates who for all intents and purposes can be classified as 75k+ jobs. I don't know how many more of that bottom quartile who reported fall in the 60-74k range, but it shouldn't be overlooked.

Bottom line: we know that 51% of the class of 2009 are/will make 75k+, you can add a few more percentage points for those making 60k-74k we can't see in that bottom quartile if we are going off of the 60k+ range. Based on Emory's Data Report you can add another 10% or so public interest/government who won't have to worry about the 200k crushing loans argument. I'm not advising anyone to take 200k in loans to come here if your goal is to be in private practice. I'm just saying they should have an accurate picture of what chances they stand and that wasn't the case before our discussion.

And Anon,
The Fulton County DA has started hiring out of Emory Law school and it is the highest paying DA in the South. Think it is 58k starting with full benefits. You only have to pay 10% of your income in loans for 10 years then rest is forgiven. So no, it is not shocking people would take on 6 figure debt to work in a DAs office

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby flexityflex86 » Mon May 16, 2011 6:18 pm

Another thing to keep in mind here is a significant %age of law school students are from rich families.

People who post on these threads put more thought into which law school they attend than the average applicant, meaning they care more, and let's be honest: people paying for their own shit tend to care more about what they're paying for.

When we see that only 80% are employed or in grad school, it's easy to assume the remaining 20% are struggling crack addicts sucking Big Al and Steve off for 47 cents a pop. But does this 20% take into housewives, lazy people and people who did law school for their rich parents but don't want to get a job?

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby BruceWayne » Mon May 16, 2011 6:20 pm

gobucks101 wrote:Bk,

You make some good points and Emory very likely could be playing with their numbers. I posted here based on the ongoing theme of this thread that only 40% of Emory grads are not wanting to buy a gun. This may or may not have been the intention of you, though it certainly was of Anon. Using LST here is what we know:

87.1% reported as employed at 9 months (4.1% of the unemployed were seeking another degree). 78.9% of grads went into the private sector and 89% of that 78.9% reported their salary, so 61.3% reported their private salary . Of that 61.3%, the 25% quartile for salary was 75k. That means that 75% of that 61.3% of the entire class is making at least 75k in private practice. That comes out to 46% of Emory's class of 2009 making 75k+ within 9 months, in private practice. Now, another 5% are Article 3 clerks, so that makes 51% of total graduates who for all intents and purposes can be classified as 75k+ jobs. I don't know how many more of that bottom quartile who reported fall in the 60-74k range, but it shouldn't be overlooked.

Bottom line: we know that 51% of the class of 2009 are/will make 75k+, you can add a few more percentage points for those making 60k-74k we can't see in that bottom quartile if we are going off of the 60k+ range. Based on Emory's Data Report you can add another 10% or so public interest/government who won't have to worry about the 200k crushing loans argument. I'm not advising anyone to take 200k in loans to come here if your goal is to be in private practice. I'm just saying they should have an accurate picture of what chances they stand and that wasn't the case before our discussion.

And Anon,
The Fulton County DA has started hiring out of Emory Law school and it is the highest paying DA in the South. Think it is 58k starting with full benefits. You only have to pay 10% of your income in loans for 10 years then rest is forgiven. So no, it is not shocking people would take on 6 figure debt to work in a DAs office


Lol this was exactly what I was thinking about when I posted my comment.

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Re: Emory vs. Fordham

Postby bk1 » Mon May 16, 2011 6:27 pm

gobucks101 wrote:You make some good points and Emory very likely could be playing with their numbers. I posted here based on the ongoing theme of this thread that only 40% of Emory grads are not wanting to buy a gun. This may or may not have been the intention of you, though it certainly was of Anon.


I'm not trying to say that Emory is awful, but I think the problem is that people are trying to figure out what percentage of Emory grads are able to service their debt, which is irrelevant to any particular applicant. What matters is whether a given applicant can service the level of debt they are about to take on. Which leads me back to my main point which was that paying sticker at Emory is a bad idea because the percentage of grads that can service sticker price debt there was around half (if not worse) in 2009 and it is worse now.




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