U of Arizona or Baylor?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

U of Arizona or Baylor?

U of Arizona
7
29%
Baylor
6
25%
Neither - ride the waitlists or find a plan B
11
46%
 
Total votes: 24

david787
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U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby david787 » Mon May 09, 2011 5:24 pm

I know it's an apples and oranges situation but here are the relevant factors (and thank you all so much for your input, I really appreciate it)!

I live in Texas and would like to practice in Texas after law school however I'm not opposed to working in AZ either (Phoenix, I think 3 years will be more than enough Tucson).

I'm not going to law school for fun, I want and need a good job after graduation. Biglaw is obviously the most preferable although I recognize that it will be a challenge from either school.

For the purpose of this poll, please assume the costs are equal.

I don't mind Waco or conservatives, I also don't mind Tucson or liberals.

I do have some good networks in TX (and CA for that matter), but nothing at the level of a job offer post-graduation.

I also understand that retaking the LSAT is the smartest move (162), however I have decided against that.

My analysis so far is the UofA is the better choice (primarily becuase it's T1 vs T2) however if I decided that I absolutely wanted to practice in Texas then Baylor would be the better choice (and as I mentioned I'm open to practicing in AZ).

Am I missing anything?

jdhonest
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby jdhonest » Mon May 09, 2011 5:29 pm

Baylor. There are "Baylor firms" in the state, and you're not getting back to Texas from AU.

CanadianWolf
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 09, 2011 5:35 pm

Arizona if you want to practice in Arizona; Baylor if you want to live & work in Texas.

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Fred_McGriff
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby Fred_McGriff » Mon May 09, 2011 5:42 pm

Baylor is going to be hellish and put you behind UT, SMU, UH. Arizona is going to be a laid back law school experience and put you right on the exact same level as ASU. If you're cool living in AZ go to Arizona.

scammedhard
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby scammedhard » Mon May 09, 2011 6:19 pm

david787 wrote:I also understand that retaking the LSAT is the smartest move (162), however I have decided against that.

Could you please elaborate?

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patrickd139
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby patrickd139 » Mon May 09, 2011 6:29 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Arizona if you want to practice in Arizona; Baylor if you want to live & work in Texas.

This. A thousand times over. Neither school is going to get you biglaw (or even midlaw for that matter), but for very different reasons.

javancho
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby javancho » Mon May 09, 2011 6:31 pm

david787 wrote:Am I missing anything?

Yes, you are missing that neither of these schools is worth it at sticker or out-state. Any scholarships? What are their estimated Costs of Attendance (COAs)?

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patrickd139
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby patrickd139 » Mon May 09, 2011 6:31 pm

Also,
david787 wrote:Am I missing anything?

Yes. Why are you not retaking? Which waitlists are you on? Which other law schools have accepted you?

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JordynAsh
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby JordynAsh » Mon May 09, 2011 6:32 pm

scammedhard wrote:
david787 wrote:I also understand that retaking the LSAT is the smartest move (162), however I have decided against that.

Could you please elaborate?


+1. Also, Baylor is hell. A few LSAT points could get you into SMU, U of H, or UT (depending on your GPA as well).

david787
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby david787 » Mon May 09, 2011 7:56 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Arizona if you want to practice in Arizona; Baylor if you want to live & work in Texas.

This. A thousand times over. Neither school is going to get you biglaw (or even midlaw for that matter), but for very different reasons.


Is this becuase Baylor is 4th behind UT, SMU and UH and because the Arizona (the state not the school) legal market isn't very good or...?

javancho wrote:
david787 wrote:Am I missing anything?

Yes, you are missing that neither of these schools is worth it at sticker or out-state. Any scholarships? What are their estimated Costs of Attendance (COAs)?


$14K/yr scholarship to UofA, no stips, obviously this changes the equation (why I wanted to leave it out of the discussion at first).

patrickd139 wrote:Also,
david787 wrote:Am I missing anything?

Yes. Why are you not retaking? Which waitlists are you on? Which other law schools have accepted you?


I graduated undergrad in 07 so it's really time to get started (in my opinion).

Waitlisted at Emory and SMU (would obviously drop everything if accepted to either even during orientation).

scammedhard
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby scammedhard » Mon May 09, 2011 8:03 pm

OP: I think that Arizona with the 14K/y scholarship is a decent option. I don't think it's a wonderful option, but it is also not financial suicide, like Baylor with no scholarship. I would still suggest to Retake if you think you can do better.

Also, if wouldn't go to Emory or SMU at sticker.

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patrickd139
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby patrickd139 » Mon May 09, 2011 9:13 pm

(Disclaimer: the following is for a person who is similarly situated to OP, who is from Texas, wants to go back to Texas, and is seeking biglaw.)

david787 wrote:Is this becuase [sic] Baylor is 4th behind UT, SMU and UH and because the Arizona (the state not the school) legal market isn't very good or...?

Baylor is a terrible option for several reasons. First, it has no "home" market. It's in Waco, a town of around 125k people, with no legal market to speak of. Dallas is flooded with SMU and UT grads. Houston is flooded with UofH, STCL and UT grads. Austin is a clusterfuck of T14 grads. What that leaves for Baylor is a few jobs in Dallas and Houston (think boutique and midlaw) for about the top 10 ish students in the class. Are you really going to pay sticker for the chance at getting a job that rides solely on you being in the top 5-10 students in the entire class?

david787 wrote:$14K/yr scholarship to UofA, no stips, obviously this changes the equation (why I wanted to leave it out of the discussion at first).

That's not a bad offer. Especially if you were from Arizona, or had significant connections to Arizona. It doesn't seem like you are/do from your posts. Which leads me to why UA is not a good option for you either. Arizona is largely comprised of only two secondary legal markets, Tuscon and Phoenix. "Biglaw" is going to be more like "market rate" which is usually around 100-120k per year. This is fantastic, if you can land a job there. My experience with secondary markets is that you have to be at the very top of your class (think top 5-10 students), or you have to have significant ties to the area (think extended family or a fiance's family). Again, judging by your nonchalant posts concerning AZ, it doesn't seem like you have such ties. And again, this brings us back to you betting tens of thousands of dollars in student loans on you being in the top 5-10 people in your class to get the type of job you say you want.

Major firms (not just biglaw, but major midlaw firms especially) in secondary markets care about hiring someone who is not a flight risk. Unlike NYC or Chicago firms, who have planned attrition, these firms are hiring to develop and cultivate talent. They just don't have the resources to train hoards of fresh graduates only to see them flee back to their home state as soon as they know anything and can make money for the firm.

david787 wrote:I graduated undergrad in 07 so it's really time to get started (in my opinion).

Waitlisted at Emory and SMU (would obviously drop everything if accepted to either even during orientation).

If you waited this long, what's another year? Serious suggestion: take that year, up your LSAT by one or two points and attend SMU if you're itching to pay sticker for a T2 in Texas. I cannot express in words how much this will increase your job prospects.

Also, rethink Emory if you want to practice in Texas. The only reason I would suggest it over Baylor or UA is that Atlanta is as close to a major legal market (and therefore caring much less about your ties to the area than your grades), than Phoenix. It also places exponentially better than Baylor could ever dream of.

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RVP11
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby RVP11 » Mon May 09, 2011 9:35 pm

patrickd139 wrote:My experience with secondary markets is that you have to be at the very top of your class (think top 5-10 students), or you have to have significant ties to the area (think extended family or a fiance's family). Again, judging by your nonchalant posts concerning AZ, it doesn't seem like you have such ties. And again, this brings us back to you betting tens of thousands of dollars in student loans on you being in the top 5-10 people in your class to get the type of job you say you want.

Major firms (not just biglaw, but major midlaw firms especially) in secondary markets care about hiring someone who is not a flight risk. Unlike NYC or Chicago firms, who have planned attrition, these firms are hiring to develop and cultivate talent.


People who go to a T30 law school are not "flight risks" - you're not lateraling from secondary market BigLaw to NYC/DC/Chicago BigLaw unless you have some ridiculous credentials (I'm talking COA clerkship level).

In 90% of cases, going to law school in the state is enough of a tie to a market. And it's not like you need one thing or the other; you need to have the grades AND the firm needs to be convinced you're planning on staying.

david787
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby david787 » Mon May 09, 2011 11:53 pm

Would it be about the same level of difficulty to do well at both schools? I know Baylor is over-competitive and Arizona is more "laid back," but I assume the students are fairly equal in abilities?

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uzpakalis
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby uzpakalis » Fri May 20, 2011 11:04 am

david787 wrote:Would it be about the same level of difficulty to do well at both schools? I know Baylor is over-competitive and Arizona is more "laid back," but I assume the students are fairly equal in abilities?


Yes. Plan on graduating at median from either school. If you 'need' to go to law school this year go to UA. 1) UA only competes with ASU in AZ (outside of top schools but that's like everywhere), 2) UA will be much more fun for 3 years than baylor/waco, 3) UA will be much cheaper (in state tuition as a 2L/3L if u lose your scholly), 4) the girls at UA are incredibily hot for the most part, 5) sonoran hot dogs (google it).

Capitol A
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Re: U of Arizona or Baylor?

Postby Capitol A » Fri May 20, 2011 11:24 am

uzpakalis wrote:
david787 wrote:Would it be about the same level of difficulty to do well at both schools? I know Baylor is over-competitive and Arizona is more "laid back," but I assume the students are fairly equal in abilities?


Yes. Plan on graduating at median from either school. If you 'need' to go to law school this year go to UA. 1) UA only competes with ASU in AZ (outside of top schools but that's like everywhere), 2) UA will be much more fun for 3 years than baylor/waco, 3) UA will be much cheaper (in state tuition as a 2L/3L if u lose your scholly), 4) the girls at UA are incredibily hot for the most part, 5) sonoran hot dogs (google it).

I have to agree with this (especially #s 4&5).
I would also add that UA with $14k/yr is a better bet than SMU sticker. I realize your target market is TX, coming out of UA it will probably be really difficult to get to TX right out of school, but SMU is unbelievably expensive. If you're okay with living/working in AZ, UofA is a great option. There are absolutely UA grads getting jobs at big firms in AZ (they may need to be top of their class, but they exist), so this blanket statement earlier ITT of "you're not going to get biglaw from either school" is just not accurate; and UA has a great reputation in the state of AZ.




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