BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

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sdp259
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BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby sdp259 » Fri May 06, 2011 2:07 pm

Background: I was taken off the wait list at BC this morning (super happy!) only to receive a few hours later an upgrade to my BLS merit scholarship (went from 29K- 41.1K/year). I am going to lose it. I'd like to practice in NY, would like to focus on international business law or something around those lines, but don't necessarily need big law options. I doubt I will get any money from BC, and 41K a year is crazy money. My secret hope is to transfer to a t-14 in any case, but I have to be operating within the worst case scenario/assume I will not transfer. Super risk-averse, trying to play it safe. PLEASE HELP ME!

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby Rule11 » Fri May 06, 2011 2:19 pm

The only whiff of international business you can realistically expect out of BLS will be immigration law in Flushing. Moreover, you won't be able to transfer to a T14--stop thinking that way.

Then again, there's no conceivable argument for BC at sticker. So, I guess I vote BLS, with an appropriate downward revision of expectations.

edit: My strongest advice for you is to go to BLS (after finding out about stipulations, of course--don't accept if it's anything worse than top 80%), and try to develop a niche in maritime law (by writing an insightful note and getting it published). Maritime law is primarily focused on international business, but a lot of people don't want to do it for some reason. There are some legit smaller firms in and around NYC that do this kind of law, and hire from schools like BLS.
Last edited by Rule11 on Fri May 06, 2011 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby JamMasterJ » Fri May 06, 2011 2:19 pm

sdp259 wrote:Background: I was taken off the wait list at BC this morning (super happy!) only to receive a few hours later an upgrade to my BLS merit scholarship (went from 29K- 41.1K/year). I am going to lose it. I'd like to practice in NY, would like to focus on international business law or something around those lines, but don't necessarily need big law options. I doubt I will get any money from BC, and 41K a year is crazy money. My secret hope is to transfer to a t-14 in any case, but I have to be operating within the worst case scenario/assume I will not transfer. Super risk-averse, trying to play it safe. PLEASE HELP ME!

If you want to do international business, you probably need to do BigLaw

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby YankeesFan » Fri May 06, 2011 2:20 pm

Stips? and is that full tuition?

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Moral_Midgetry
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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby Moral_Midgetry » Fri May 06, 2011 2:21 pm

I was expecting something interesting given the thread title. Neither of these are attractive options. Going in wanting to transfer is risky and likely won't happen. Since you want to attend a t-13, is retake/reapplying not an option?

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby Perch » Fri May 06, 2011 2:22 pm

sdp259 wrote:Background: I was taken off the wait list at BC this morning (super happy!) only to receive a few hours later an upgrade to my BLS merit scholarship (went from 29K- 41.1K/year). I am going to lose it. I'd like to practice in NY, would like to focus on international business law or something around those lines, but don't necessarily need big law options. I doubt I will get any money from BC, and 41K a year is crazy money. My secret hope is to transfer to a t-14 in any case, but I have to be operating within the worst case scenario/assume I will not transfer. Super risk-averse, trying to play it safe. PLEASE HELP ME!


If this is true, your answer seems clear...I guess

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby alumniguy » Fri May 06, 2011 2:29 pm

Tough decision. If you are "super risk averse," then you should go to Brooklyn. That must be almost a full ride, so you are looking at living expenses only. You will need to be top 5-10% to have a realistic shot at NYC biglaw (and you won't really even have many non NYC options out of Brooklyn).

Sticker at BC is going to force you into biglaw. It will take you 4-5 years of biglaw to payback 200k in loans and at that point you'll be even. Over the course of a life time career it is doable. My only concern is that if you don't get biglaw - and it certainly isn't guaranteed coming out of BC - then you are looking at massive debt for what is likely 10+ years. I don't think BC at sticker is a good decision in the current legal environment (I went to BC at near sticker 5 years ago and even then it was debatable about being a wise decision. Luckily, I landed biglaw and am now down to just over 90k in loans 3 years out and expect to break even at the end of my 4th year.) and wouldn't advise you do so unless you're willing to make large loan payments for a very long time (like $1500-2k per month for 15 years).

Agreed that I don't know if international business law exists outside of biglaw. International businesses are uniformly big and therefore, expect top notch lawyers and are willing to pay for them.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby sdp259 » Fri May 06, 2011 2:38 pm

So I know transferring is crazy and not really possible, but a girl can dream, right? Just kidding...apparently not.


On a serious note, I know that these are not awesome options. I do not, on the other hand, want to wait another year and re-apply. The scholarship at BLS is close to full tuition (it's 41K out of 45K), but comes with a top 40% rank stip. Maritime law is something I'd definitely consider. Big law would be wonderful but I am realistic and I know that is a long shot out of either school. I basically need to make the safest/smartest choice and am looking to TLS for some guidance. I'm also still waiting on Fordham, if that adds anything to the discussion.

Also, If I go to BLS my parents will help with the outstanding $, but at BC I'd probably be taking out loans.

Thanks for your help, you guys! I really appreciate it.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby alumniguy » Fri May 06, 2011 2:45 pm

Hmmm...a top 40% stipulation is pretty aggressive. I don't know how scholarships are structured, but I would negotiate this down. I would request no stipulation, but wouldn't accept anything less than top 66%.

If you can't get the stipulation taken away/reduced, I don't think BLS is a good option. The last thing you want is to be stuck at BLS, paying full tuition and in the bottom 50%. You'll have ~100k in debt and very poor job prospects.

Perhaps you should consider BC. Why not put out some feelers on whether BC can provide you with any cash. Even if it was 5k that would help.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby Moral_Midgetry » Fri May 06, 2011 2:46 pm

With a top 40% stip at BLS, retaking is TCR.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby sdp259 » Fri May 06, 2011 2:46 pm

alumniguy wrote:Tough decision. If you are "super risk averse," then you should go to Brooklyn. That must be almost a full ride, so you are looking at living expenses only. You will need to be top 5-10% to have a realistic shot at NYC biglaw (and you won't really even have many non NYC options out of Brooklyn).

Sticker at BC is going to force you into biglaw. It will take you 4-5 years of biglaw to payback 200k in loans and at that point you'll be even. Over the course of a life time career it is doable. My only concern is that if you don't get biglaw - and it certainly isn't guaranteed coming out of BC - then you are looking at massive debt for what is likely 10+ years. I don't think BC at sticker is a good decision in the current legal environment (I went to BC at near sticker 5 years ago and even then it was debatable about being a wise decision. Luckily, I landed biglaw and am now down to just over 90k in loans 3 years out and expect to break even at the end of my 4th year.) and wouldn't advise you do so unless you're willing to make large loan payments for a very long time (like $1500-2k per month for 15 years).

Agreed that I don't know if international business law exists outside of biglaw. International businesses are uniformly big and therefore, expect top notch lawyers and are willing to pay for them.



This was super helpful- thank you! Do you know what the chances are exactly of getting biglaw out of BC, specifically in NY? Was your experience at BC great? I really like its international law program, and people seem to be very happy there. My dream (I dream a lot) is international business law, but seeing as it will be an uphill battle to get to it, I'm prepared to deal with a different career trajectory. Anyway, thanks again for this!

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby sdp259 » Fri May 06, 2011 2:48 pm

Moral_Midgetry wrote:With a top 40% stip at BLS, retaking is TCR.



I am so not fluent in this language. What is TCR again?

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby Moral_Midgetry » Fri May 06, 2011 2:51 pm

TCR = the credited response

sdp259
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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby sdp259 » Fri May 06, 2011 2:52 pm

alumniguy wrote:Hmmm...a top 40% stipulation is pretty aggressive. I don't know how scholarships are structured, but I would negotiate this down. I would request no stipulation, but wouldn't accept anything less than top 66%.

If you can't get the stipulation taken away/reduced, I don't think BLS is a good option. The last thing you want is to be stuck at BLS, paying full tuition and in the bottom 50%. You'll have ~100k in debt and very poor job prospects.

Perhaps you should consider BC. Why not put out some feelers on whether BC can provide you with any cash. Even if it was 5k that would help.


I just called admissions at BC. They said they are still evaluating the money they've recouped from the first round of decisions and will let me know as soon as possible what they can offer. The BLS scholarship isn't taken away from you whole-sale if you fall below 40%. It is adjusted and reduced by a few thousand dollars depending on where you fall, but it isn't an all-or-nothing scholarship. At Loyola LA, for example, its top 33% or bust. I have 3 weeks to decide.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby 2011Law » Fri May 06, 2011 2:52 pm

sdp259 wrote:So I know transferring is crazy and not really possible, but a girl can dream, right? Just kidding...apparently not.


On a serious note, I know that these are not awesome options. I do not, on the other hand, want to wait another year and re-apply. The scholarship at BLS is close to full tuition (it's 41K out of 45K), but comes with a top 40% rank stip. Maritime law is something I'd definitely consider. Big law would be wonderful but I am realistic and I know that is a long shot out of either school. I basically need to make the safest/smartest choice and am looking to TLS for some guidance. I'm also still waiting on Fordham, if that adds anything to the discussion.

Also, If I go to BLS my parents will help with the outstanding $, but at BC I'd probably be taking out loans.

Thanks for your help, you guys! I really appreciate it.


So you'd graduate from BLS with no debt? If so, I'd definitely go there over full debt at BC.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby sdp259 » Fri May 06, 2011 3:04 pm

Yes going to BLS would mean no debt for me. I wouldn't take on the full debt of BC tuition, but I'd definitely have at least 100K in loans to pay back.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby 2011Law » Fri May 06, 2011 3:07 pm

sdp259 wrote:Yes going to BLS would mean no debt for me. I wouldn't take on the full debt of BC tuition, but I'd definitely have at least 100K in loans to pay back.


do you have a good idea of exactly how much debt you'd graduate with? If it was only like 110k I might go to BC over BLS.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby forty-two » Fri May 06, 2011 3:11 pm

2011Law wrote:
sdp259 wrote:Yes going to BLS would mean no debt for me. I wouldn't take on the full debt of BC tuition, but I'd definitely have at least 100K in loans to pay back.


do you have a good idea of exactly how much debt you'd graduate with? If it was only like 110k I might go to BC over BLS.

+1 How much debt would you have from BC and how much would you have if you lost your scholarship at BLS? Since you said you wouldn't lose the whole thing if you fell below 40%, maybe figure out the numbers if you ended up at median or slightly below.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby sdp259 » Fri May 06, 2011 3:20 pm

My goodness you guys are so great! I will crunch the numbers tonight and report back. I just feel like BC is such a legit law school and BK always left me uncomfortable. Anyway, thanks so much everyone. Really this is such good advice. :)

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby alumniguy » Fri May 06, 2011 3:20 pm

sdp259 wrote: I just called admissions at BC. They said they are still evaluating the money they've recouped from the first round of decisions and will let me know as soon as possible what they can offer. The BLS scholarship isn't taken away from you whole-sale if you fall below 40%. It is adjusted and reduced by a few thousand dollars depending on where you fall, but it isn't an all-or-nothing scholarship. At Loyola LA, for example, its top 33% or bust. I have 3 weeks to decide.


Regarding the stipulation, you should ask exactly what the reductions are for certain percentages. Irrespective, you can still request that no stipulation be attached. Tell them you are considering a far better school in BC and see if they are willing to provide no stipulation. From my experience, you can't really assure yourself of how well you are going to do. I do think you can be fairly confidant that you will place in the top 2/3rds of the the class if you dedicate yourself to working hard. But I don't think this holds true for top 1/3rd to top 40%.

Remember, if you don't ask, then you aren't going to get anything.

* * *

Regarding my time at BC. I did enjoy BC. It was far more collegial and less cut throat than I had anticipated law school being. Fellow students are uniformly great (a few bad apples, but that is to be expected - interestingly, the bad apples DIDN'T all do well either). Professors were generally quite good - they all for the most part really enjoy teaching law, as opposed to focusing primarily on scholarship, which I found refreshing. I graduated in the boom times, so my year (2008) I think almost 45% got NLJ 250 jobs. This doesn't take into account students that opted for clerkships either. Obviously times have changed. The old adage is top 1/3rd at BC makes you competitive for biglaw - and I think that is a good marker. The current class (2011) had it the worst, so we should see what the "bottom" of the market looks like next year. I think the NLJ 250 numbers for class of 2010 was around 34% (note that this was an interesting year because of the high number of no-offers, so I'm not sure that we can base too much off of this number). If you are top 10%-15% you should have a decent shot of transferring to a T-14 (there were a handful of transfers my year).

* * *

International business law doesn't really exist. International businesses utilize a number of firms to handle jurisdictional issues. For example, if there is a cross-border issue between a French company that does business in the U.S., that company will probably have its primary legal advisor, which will be a French law firm and a secondary legal advisor, a U.S. law firm. Each firm is handling the issues that arise in their respective jurisdictions. There will be coordination among the two firms, but the lawyers themselves are not international business specialists. The lawyers are instead specialists in the area of law for their countries. There is generally no "laws" for international business. You will be a U.S. trained lawyer, so you will be practicing U.S. law. You did mention maritime law - which I guess is international, however, this is a highly specialized practice that will be difficult (not impossible) to get into. You should start making contacts immediately once you get to law school if you are interested in this area.

My advice is to seek out firms that have truly international practices. Most V30s have international clients and regularly advise international clients. Also, the particular practice area that you decide on will impact how much "international law" you see. For example, if you are interested in litigation - then you should find a firm that deals with a lot of foreign corrupt practice act issues (as this is pretty much only about foreign companies).

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby alumniguy » Fri May 06, 2011 3:23 pm

2011Law wrote:
sdp259 wrote:Yes going to BLS would mean no debt for me. I wouldn't take on the full debt of BC tuition, but I'd definitely have at least 100K in loans to pay back.


do you have a good idea of exactly how much debt you'd graduate with? If it was only like 110k I might go to BC over BLS.



Agreed. If you are looking at BC at 100k and Brooklyn at no debt, I would choose BC. I would probably choose BC up to about 125k in debt.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby sdp259 » Fri May 06, 2011 3:55 pm

alumniguy wrote:
sdp259 wrote: I just called admissions at BC. They said they are still evaluating the money they've recouped from the first round of decisions and will let me know as soon as possible what they can offer. The BLS scholarship isn't taken away from you whole-sale if you fall below 40%. It is adjusted and reduced by a few thousand dollars depending on where you fall, but it isn't an all-or-nothing scholarship. At Loyola LA, for example, its top 33% or bust. I have 3 weeks to decide.


Regarding the stipulation, you should ask exactly what the reductions are for certain percentages. Irrespective, you can still request that no stipulation be attached. Tell them you are considering a far better school in BC and see if they are willing to provide no stipulation. From my experience, you can't really assure yourself of how well you are going to do. I do think you can be fairly confidant that you will place in the top 2/3rds of the the class if you dedicate yourself to working hard. But I don't think this holds true for top 1/3rd to top 40%.

Remember, if you don't ask, then you aren't going to get anything.

* * *

Regarding my time at BC. I did enjoy BC. It was far more collegial and less cut throat than I had anticipated law school being. Fellow students are uniformly great (a few bad apples, but that is to be expected - interestingly, the bad apples DIDN'T all do well either). Professors were generally quite good - they all for the most part really enjoy teaching law, as opposed to focusing primarily on scholarship, which I found refreshing. I graduated in the boom times, so my year (2008) I think almost 45% got NLJ 250 jobs. This doesn't take into account students that opted for clerkships either. Obviously times have changed. The old adage is top 1/3rd at BC makes you competitive for biglaw - and I think that is a good marker. The current class (2011) had it the worst, so we should see what the "bottom" of the market looks like next year. I think the NLJ 250 numbers for class of 2010 was around 34% (note that this was an interesting year because of the high number of no-offers, so I'm not sure that we can base too much off of this number). If you are top 10%-15% you should have a decent shot of transferring to a T-14 (there were a handful of transfers my year).

* * *

International business law doesn't really exist. International businesses utilize a number of firms to handle jurisdictional issues. For example, if there is a cross-border issue between a French company that does business in the U.S., that company will probably have its primary legal advisor, which will be a French law firm and a secondary legal advisor, a U.S. law firm. Each firm is handling the issues that arise in their respective jurisdictions. There will be coordination among the two firms, but the lawyers themselves are not international business specialists. The lawyers are instead specialists in the area of law for their countries. There is generally no "laws" for international business. You will be a U.S. trained lawyer, so you will be practicing U.S. law. You did mention maritime law - which I guess is international, however, this is a highly specialized practice that will be difficult (not impossible) to get into. You should start making contacts immediately once you get to law school if you are interested in this area.

My advice is to seek out firms that have truly international practices. Most V30s have international clients and regularly advise international clients. Also, the particular practice area that you decide on will impact how much "international law" you see. For example, if you are interested in litigation - then you should find a firm that deals with a lot of foreign corrupt practice act issues (as this is pretty much only about foreign companies).


Alumniguy you are so awesome + helpful. These are such thoughtful responses. In truth, I am definitely leaning towards BC. It seems like a really wonderful place to study.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby Attorney » Sun May 08, 2011 10:15 pm

BC @ $100k debt is great. That's like having an $80k scholarship. Brooklyn would be a terrible choice in this case.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby MrAnon » Sun May 08, 2011 10:31 pm

If you were super risk adverse then you wouldn't go to either of these schools. They are much bigger risks than whatever you are doing now, even if that includes sitting on your couch watching Game of Thrones marathons all weekend.

I'll add the the biggest emotional spiral is yet to come. It will be post-graduation.

You need to get better informed about these schools and your prospects coming out of them. As those above have said, there is no international business job to be had from these schools. Further to that, corporate side law jobs are extremely hard to come by out of these schools. I would go down to your local traffic, family court, or criminal and sit and watch it for a day. This is much more likely the future.

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Re: BC (Sticker) vs. Brooklyn Law (41K/year) EMOTIONAL SPIRAL

Postby ahduth » Sun May 08, 2011 10:34 pm

alumniguy wrote:International business law doesn't really exist. International businesses utilize a number of firms to handle jurisdictional issues.


I'll agree with this generally speaking, outside of tax. Tax strategy at large corporations revolves around understanding how various regulatory regimes impact how, where and when they move their cash. These firms hire outside counsel in various jurisdictions to advise them on what to do. But international business law is very much practiced within the GC offices of these firms. It's their job.

That being said... do not go to Brooklyn Law School if you want to do this. I don't think that school is the route into a GC department.




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