Seton Hall?

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IHaveLawyers
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby IHaveLawyers » Fri May 06, 2011 1:12 am

rad law wrote:
DAS10 wrote:I was also admitted to Seton Hall with a pretty solid scholarship (35k/yr), top 50% requirement (~3.0),


As long as you're cool with dropping out if you lose your money, this isn't so bad.


lol, look at you. I'm sure the man took that into consideration otherwise he would not be posting about it.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby whymeohgodno » Fri May 06, 2011 1:31 am

IHaveLawyers wrote:
rad law wrote:
DAS10 wrote:I was also admitted to Seton Hall with a pretty solid scholarship (35k/yr), top 50% requirement (~3.0),


As long as you're cool with dropping out if you lose your money, this isn't so bad.


lol, look at you. I'm sure the man took that into consideration otherwise he would not be posting about it.


You mad brah?

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Grizz
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby Grizz » Fri May 06, 2011 1:55 am

IHaveLawyers wrote:
rad law wrote:
DAS10 wrote:I was also admitted to Seton Hall with a pretty solid scholarship (35k/yr), top 50% requirement (~3.0),


As long as you're cool with dropping out if you lose your money, this isn't so bad.


lol, look at you. I'm sure the man took that into consideration otherwise he would not be posting about it.


You'd be surprised, broseph.

flcath
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby flcath » Fri May 06, 2011 2:01 am

IHaveLawyers wrote:
rad law wrote:
DAS10 wrote:I was also admitted to Seton Hall with a pretty solid scholarship (35k/yr), top 50% requirement (~3.0),


As long as you're cool with dropping out if you lose your money, this isn't so bad.


lol, look at you. I'm sure the man took that into consideration otherwise he would not be posting about it.

Dude, these responses have been totally reasonable.

Most of us think that Seton Hall w/ $35K/yr and top-50% stips is a decent deal, easily preferable to Cardozo at sticker. Most of us also think that if you finish bottom half, you'd be crazy not to drop out given that you be paying more for, necessarily (since you finished below median), a lower shot at a job.

The profs and the education are, I'm sure, fine. But dude, that's just not what matters.

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voltage88
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby voltage88 » Fri May 06, 2011 8:09 am

OP, I think most critics of Seton Hall assume that all Seton Hall graduates are looking to head over to NYC after law school. This is definitely not true. Of first-time takers of a bar exam, 270 of 278 took the NJ bar last year.

I would agree that Seton Hall would be a bad investment if you had dreams of obtaining a six-figure salary from a NYC law firm after law school. However, I don't think it is all that bad if your goal is to stay in North Jersey: A lot of New Jersey legislatures are graduates of Seton Hall Law (the current governor of NJ, too) and the school has a ton of alumni in NJ, esp. NNJ. Also, something like 40% of graduates are employed in a judicial clerkship, with 5% of those with an Article III judge (tied for 30th). The school is also in the Top 50 in the big law rankings.

If you don't mind living in Newark for 3 years and possibly staying in North Jersey for more than that after law school, I don't think Seton Hall is a bad choice at all. Best of luck to you!

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Grizz
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby Grizz » Fri May 06, 2011 8:40 am

voltage88 wrote:OP, I think most critics of Seton Hall assume that all Seton Hall graduates are looking to head over to NYC after law school. This is definitely not true. Of first-time takers of a bar exam, 270 of 278 took the NJ bar last year.

I would agree that Seton Hall would be a bad investment if you had dreams of obtaining a six-figure salary from a NYC law firm after law school. However, I don't think it is all that bad if your goal is to stay in North Jersey: A lot of New Jersey legislatures are graduates of Seton Hall Law (the current governor of NJ, too) and the school has a ton of alumni in NJ, esp. NNJ. Also, something like 40% of graduates are employed in a judicial clerkship, with 5% of those with an Article III judge (tied for 30th). The school is also in the Top 50 in the big law rankings.

If you don't mind living in Newark for 3 years and possibly staying in North Jersey for more than that after law school, I don't think Seton Hall is a bad choice at all. Best of luck to you!


We're not assuming that at all. Seton Hall is notorious for placing its barely employable students in traffic court clerkships and the like. Not many of those 40% are what could be called "desirable" clerkships, for students who could get a full-time job or for employers. T50 in the biglaw rankings doesn't mean shit. So they have what, 17% biglaw + article III? None of us are saying don't go. We're saying don't go unless you have a near full tuition scholarship. It's the smart financial decision.

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Wholigan
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby Wholigan » Fri May 06, 2011 8:41 am

IHaveLawyers wrote:
TheFactor wrote:
IHaveLawyers wrote:I understand the salary distribution. I guess it's your words against theirs.

So, I guess according to you guys, UC Davis, William & Mary, SMU, Notre Dame, and Wake Forest are just as bad if not worse? They places less in big law jobs than Seton Hall.

Where are you getting your information? This is also false.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162


How is that false? Are we looking at the same data? Here are the numbers for hired and promoted after first year. The only metric is beaten by SMU with sending 1 more person to big law than Seton Hall.

Seton Hall : 41 / 49

UC Davis : 30 / 33
W&M : 29 / 36
SMU: 42 / 49
Notre Dame : 41 / 48
Wake Forest : 25/ 34




Late lol at Seton Hall being the same as Notre Dame for biglaw because the number of associates is the same, completely ignoring that class size is double.

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voltage88
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby voltage88 » Fri May 06, 2011 9:33 am

rad law wrote:
voltage88 wrote:OP, I think most critics of Seton Hall assume that all Seton Hall graduates are looking to head over to NYC after law school. This is definitely not true. Of first-time takers of a bar exam, 270 of 278 took the NJ bar last year.

I would agree that Seton Hall would be a bad investment if you had dreams of obtaining a six-figure salary from a NYC law firm after law school. However, I don't think it is all that bad if your goal is to stay in North Jersey: A lot of New Jersey legislatures are graduates of Seton Hall Law (the current governor of NJ, too) and the school has a ton of alumni in NJ, esp. NNJ. Also, something like 40% of graduates are employed in a judicial clerkship, with 5% of those with an Article III judge (tied for 30th). The school is also in the Top 50 in the big law rankings.

If you don't mind living in Newark for 3 years and possibly staying in North Jersey for more than that after law school, I don't think Seton Hall is a bad choice at all. Best of luck to you!


We're not assuming that at all. Seton Hall is notorious for placing its barely employable students in traffic court clerkships and the like. Not many of those 40% are what could be called "desirable" clerkships, for students who could get a full-time job or for employers. T50 in the biglaw rankings doesn't mean shit. So they have what, 17% biglaw + article III? None of us are saying don't go. We're saying don't go unless you have a near full tuition scholarship. It's the smart financial decision.


Of the 40% judicial clerkships Seton Hall grads had, 5% were with Article III judges. That's a high number compared to peer schools. I'm not saying Seton Hall is worth it just for this reason at all. I'm just saying a Seton Hall degree (given appropriate financial considerations, post-graduation goals, etc) isn't a disastrous decision as some people make it out to be.

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IHaveLawyers
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby IHaveLawyers » Fri May 06, 2011 2:02 pm

voltage88 wrote:
Of the 40% judicial clerkships Seton Hall grads had, 5% were with Article III judges. That's a high number compared to peer schools. I'm not saying Seton Hall is worth it just for this reason at all. I'm just saying a Seton Hall degree (given appropriate financial considerations, post-graduation goals, etc) isn't a disastrous decision as some people make it out to be.


That is my conclusion as well.

Late lol at Seton Hall being the same as Notre Dame for biglaw because the number of associates is the same, completely ignoring that class size is double.


No one is putting Seton Hall on par with Notre Dame, but it makes me question if Seton Hall really that bad when it's placing similar numbers in big law. Are you saying that Notre Dame would place 82 people into big law if their class was twice as back? At some time, diminishing return comes into play as well. If the class size was double, I would think you might see about 60 in big law.
Last edited by IHaveLawyers on Fri May 06, 2011 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wholigan
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby Wholigan » Fri May 06, 2011 2:13 pm

IHaveLawyers wrote:
Late lol at Seton Hall being the same as Notre Dame for biglaw because the number of associates is the same, completely ignoring that class size is double.


No one is putting Seton Hall on par with Notre Dame, but it makes me question if Seton Hall really that bad when it's placing similar numbers in big law. Are you saying that Notre Dame would place 82 people into big law if their class was twice as back? At some time, demising return comes into play as well. If the class size was double, I would think you might see about 60 in big law.


Hahaha I can't believe you are still trying to argue this. The bolded is exactly what I'm saying. Hell, Fordham and GW are three times the size of Notre Dame and place three times the number into biglaw as Notre Dame, which is exactly what I'd expect - check the numbers. Nobody is going to argue that those schools are in a different stratosphere than Notre Dame because they overcame the mythical phenomenon of [sic] "demising return" that you just invented.

TLSNYC
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby TLSNYC » Fri May 06, 2011 2:16 pm

Bro, if you wanna go to Seton Hall, just go. Stop seeking our approval and making yourself into a little SH apologist.

keg411
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby keg411 » Fri May 06, 2011 2:25 pm

The NJ bar statistic is flawed because NJ schedules their bar exam around NY/PA so that at least 80% of those people who took the bar in NJ probably also took it in NY or PA (probably more NY than PA). So a lot of those NJ takers could easily want to work in NY.

The only thing I'll defend is the state trial clerkships (blah blah blah, typical yes, they are not prestigious caveat or anything like Article III clerkships caveat), since they're interesting and better than unemployment, and you can get them even if you're median, which again, is better than unemployment. Otherwise, I generally think SHU sucks and their administration is all sorts of shady from the stories I've heard.

scammedhard
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby scammedhard » Fri May 06, 2011 2:43 pm

OP: Considering your 20K scholarship, I don't think you should go to Seton Hall and, instead, I suggest you RETAKE. Worst case scenario, you score lower and wait a year (I am sure SH would accept you again under similar terms), but if you score higher you can get a much larger scholarship from SH or go somewhere where else the employment/salary/careers prospects are better. ITE, places like Seton Hall are just too much or a risk and one could very well end up unemployed/underemployed with lots of ever-growing debt.

Whatever you decide, best luck!

TheFactor
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby TheFactor » Fri May 06, 2011 3:02 pm

According to your logic OP, a guy who makes 250/500 free throws is just as good a shooter as someone who makes 250/300.

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Grizz
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby Grizz » Fri May 06, 2011 7:46 pm

TheFactor wrote:According to your logic OP, a guy who makes 250/500 free throws is just as good a shooter as someone who makes 250/300.


OP is a major Herp Derpington.

DAS10
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby DAS10 » Fri May 06, 2011 8:21 pm

flcath wrote:
IHaveLawyers wrote:
rad law wrote:
DAS10 wrote:I was also admitted to Seton Hall with a pretty solid scholarship (35k/yr), top 50% requirement (~3.0),


As long as you're cool with dropping out if you lose your money, this isn't so bad.


lol, look at you. I'm sure the woman took that into consideration otherwise *she* would not be posting about it.

Dude, these responses have been totally reasonable.

Most of us think that Seton Hall w/ $35K/yr and top-50% stips is a decent deal, easily preferable to Cardozo at sticker. Most of us also think that if you finish bottom half, you'd be crazy not to drop out given that you be paying more for, necessarily (since you finished below median), a lower shot at a job.

The profs and the education are, I'm sure, fine. But dude, that's just not what matters.


For the record, if I wasn't above the median at Seton Hall, I totally would have dropped out and reconsidered life options, so I had considered that. But as it were, I'm going the retaking/reapplying route (unless by some chance I get in off one of my waitlists).

SetonHallstinks
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby SetonHallstinks » Tue May 10, 2011 9:00 am

As a 2005 Seton Hall grad, I'd like to inform all of you of my experience at this school.

First off, my 1 L year at SH in 2002-3, the tuition was 24 K. I had a small (5 K) scholarship and no undergrad debt. By my last year (2005) tution was up to about 27 K. I essentially paid what was "sticker" at the time, as I lost the 5 K after second semester of my 1 L year.

I mention this only because many will flame me for paying "sticker," but understand that TLS, the "scamblogs," and hundreds of major media articles were not around in late 2001 when I was applying to law schools. There was little info about SH Law on the internet, or law school placement in general. Remember, most homes still had 56 K dial-up internet back then- it was just a totally different environment. Also, what I paid in "sticker" then is what you'd pay today with a 50% ride, as tuition is now up to 46 K a year.

From my experience there is NO DOUBT that SH "stacks" scholly people in certain sections to take away the $$$. In my section alone there was a gal w/ a full ride (168 LSAT), and many others with Ivy undergrads and full or damn-near full rides. Not only do they stack the brightest kids together, they also give them the hardest-grading profs. For example. Sara Waldeck, known as "C-minus Sara", and Mark Denbeaux aka "D+ Denbeaux."

Waldeck is esp. tough because she doesn't give "standard" exams. Our Property exam was a photocopy of a NY Times article about software piracy. She merely instructed us to "apply what we learned in class to the article."

Many people ended up with c's and even d's, so many in fact that she had to hold a post-exam conference to explain what she was looking for in the exam. Turns out she wanted people to make the comparison to software "running free" over the internet as opposed to being "captured," like the fox hunt in Pierson v. Post (google that famous case).

Needless to say, this was pretty absurd and trashed a lot of GPA's (not mine, I saved my bad grades for Con Law the following semester). I offer it only as an example that hard work doesn't equal success in law school. Sheer luck plays a far larger role than you can imagine.

Another depressing thing about SH is that no one really wants to be there. The first week of school is more like a funeral, with many people bummed that they couldn't make it into Fordham or a semi-prestigious school along those lines. I didn't meet a single classmate who was excited about being at SH. It's in a pretty lousy area (though not dangerous, lots of cops around) but almost everyone commutes and there's little to no "campus" feeling. After class, most people get in there cars and drive home to the NJ burbs. Hoboken and the other towns around SH are simply far too expensive in rent etc to be realistic on a student budget.

Don't be fooled by the slightly above avg. Article III court placement. This can be explained by the fact that a lot of SH kids have major-league connections- five of my classmates had fathers who were Federal judges, and needless to say all of them got placed just fine regardless of grades. There are "trust fund babies" aplenty at SH, to the extent where anyone from a working-class background will DEFINITELY feel out of place. Think "Alex P. Keaton" types, who for whatever reason didn't rank high enough on the LSAT to get into a real law school.

Another thing about the school is that it's almost 100% white- almost in kind of a "creepy" way.

As for placement, Seton Hall does a terrible job with OCI. Hell, the dean Patrick Hobbs cares so little about the students that he "moonlighted" as the undergrad athletic director for all of last year. This type of self-aggrandizement is endemic among the SH profs and admins. Almost all the profs have side gigs and cancel classes constantly, as if their 250 "professor" gigs were a part-time job! Forget anything in NYC- those jobs were almost impossible to get even in '05, and they're even harder now.

What might surprise you is that you can also pretty much forget the decent NJ firms like McCarter, Lowenstein, Sills Cummis et al. In this bear market those places can get Ivy-leaguers, so they've pretty much stopped hiring from schools like SH. In fact, they've stopped hiring altogether in McCarter's case:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... r_program/

You can also forget legal aid and assistant DA jobs- the state is beyond broke and those places aren't hiring either. Here are some fairly recent articles on the NJ legal "market":

http://articles.philly.com/2010-08-14/n ... ewer-cases

Things are so bad that only 60 of 100 people who wanted to work for FREE at the NJ AG's office got placed:

http://blogs.findlaw.com/strategist/200 ... teers.html

(btw the hiring freeze is still on- I have a friend in this program).

Hell, even the "Traffic Court Clerkships" (as the NJ superior court clerkships are jokingly called) are now getting Ivy-league resumes:

--LinkRemoved--

I just think you should all be made aware of these facts before entering Seton Hall. I deeply regret my decision to attend the school (and law school in general), and most of my former classmates feel the same way. Most are trapped in dead-end temp jobs doing doc review, which is a rapidly dying area itself. When I graduated those jobs paid 35/hr + OT after 40 hours, so at least you made $$$ to be bored, mistreated, and doing dead-end work without health insurance or any stability.

Now those jobs are paying 25-30 an hour, the OT is long gone, and projects are few and far between.

Seton Hall was never a good school, but going there in the current economy is almost a suicide mission. Expect to start at 35-45 K at a small firm in NJ if you're lucky enough to even get a gig, since most of these shops want people with at least a couple years of experience (and can get them in this economy).

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rocon7383
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby rocon7383 » Tue May 10, 2011 9:12 am

they have a bad reputation for section stacking, their scholarships are easy to lose/ all or nothing if you do lose it, and the school is in Newark. This is what steered me away from SHU.

SetonHallstinks
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby SetonHallstinks » Tue May 10, 2011 9:24 am

Even sadder, this $22 an hour temp job was actually posted on Seton Hall Law's employment listserv:

http://temporaryattorney.blogspot.com/2 ... -poor.html

Sadly, these menial, low-paying temp gigs are staffed very quickly and most of them are like Seton Hall class reunions. My last temp gig in Westfield, NJ was paying $25 an hour and about 40 of the 72 people on the project were SH grads.

Remember too that temp gigs have no health insurance, no paid leave, no sick days, no 401K, and build no experience towards anything career-wise. Worse yet, once you get a few of them on your resume you get labelled a "perma-temp" and never have a shot a getting an associate job anywhere- it's like a Scarlet Letter.

Who in their right mind would forgo 3 years of earnings and possibly borrow a substantial sum of money, plus all the studying and the bar'zam, to make $22 an hour as a temp? Answer: The typical Seton Hall 0 L.

mrwarre85
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby mrwarre85 » Tue May 10, 2011 3:19 pm

lol one my best friends is a 1L there totally forwarding this to him. thanks.

SetonHallstinks
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby SetonHallstinks » Thu May 12, 2011 11:38 am

lol one my best friends is a 1L there totally forwarding this to him. thanks.
______________________________________________________________________
Please beg him to drop out if he's not top 5% after first year. There is virtually no OCI to speak of at Seton Hall anymore, esp. since the two biggest NJ firms (McCarter & Lownstein Sandler) are no longer taking summer associates.

I can't imagine the scene at SH nowadays with all those kids staring down 150 K+ in debt and literally no jobs for 80-90% of the class. There's probably more happy faces at the Sloan Kettering bone cancer ward than a TTT toilet like Seton Hall in this brutal and permanent bear market. Hell, they're posting doc review jobs @ $22 an hour on their own employment listserv!

Even funnier, they sent a mass email out last year telling all 2 and 3 L's to consider looking for work in more rural areas like Southern NJ and central/western PA "markets." Pretty humorous that a school where the NYC skyline can be seen from the windows is telling its own students to head out to Armpit Cove, PA to find work!

The most hilarious indictment of Seton Hall's poor reputation is the fact that Cozen O'Connor, a Biglaw firm with a large NJ office ACROSS THE STREET from Seton Hall in Gateway Building, does not do OCI at SH or even bother collecting resumes from SH:

--LinkRemoved--

Pretty sad that they won't even send a secretary or someone across the street to pick up some Seton Hall resumes! Would you attend a culinary school if the 4 star restaurant across the street refused to hire chefs from the school?

I really hope your friend has the guts and common sense to walk away from SH after this year and cut his losses. I wish to God I'd done the same thing. About 2 weeks before start of my 2 L year when I learned I had no OCI's, I was very close to just bailing out. Instead I hung in there and ended up getting nothing post-bar'zam but doc review and a brief stint at an insurance defense shitlaw firm for 45 K a year and crap benefits.

Anyone expecting a 70 to 80 K a year job coming out of SH is in for a rude awakening. I have friends from class of 2005 who aren't yet making 80 K six years into practice. It's mostly low-end insurance defense firms that hire SH grads, and these places usually start new associates at 35-45 K, sometimes a bit lower if you'll take it. For example, the ID firm that paid me 45 K in 2005 is now paying first-years 33 K- they know better than anyone the supply-demand imbalance and take full advantage of it. Understand also that these firms don't give a crap about quality work or your "career development" - ID work is utterly mindless cut n' paste slop and the court appearances are a complete joke. The partners could care less who churns out this crap- the hourly rates are a joke (like $90-$120) and many types of files (like soft tissue car accidents) are handled on flat-fee basis.

The larger ID sweatshops like Wilson Elser mostly hire people with 2 to 3 years of ID experience- Wilson does pay about 65 - 70 K, but expect NYC Biglaw type hours for that $$$. Also there is no real bonus- reason being the partners have to cut hours all the time b/c insurance companies are terrible clients and nickel n' dime every bill. The associate turnover at these places is unreal- most people last from 6 months to a year and then bail. I have over a dozen friends who've worked at Wilson over the years and none of them made it much more than a year- the place is just a miserable environment and the work is too mindless and repetitive.

defiance96
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby defiance96 » Thu May 12, 2011 2:40 pm

SetonHallstinks wrote:The most hilarious indictment of Seton Hall's poor reputation is the fact that Cozen O'Connor, a Biglaw firm with a large NJ office ACROSS THE STREET from Seton Hall in Gateway Building, does not do OCI at SH or even bother collecting resumes from SH:
--LinkRemoved--


They don't seem to have a Newark office. --LinkRemoved--

22 offices worldwide, 2 of them in New York. 21 cities listed, Newark isn't one of them. So not sure how this is a hilarious indictment of anything.

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Grizz
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby Grizz » Thu May 12, 2011 2:50 pm

defiance96 wrote:
SetonHallstinks wrote:The most hilarious indictment of Seton Hall's poor reputation is the fact that Cozen O'Connor, a Biglaw firm with a large NJ office ACROSS THE STREET from Seton Hall in Gateway Building, does not do OCI at SH or even bother collecting resumes from SH:
--LinkRemoved--


They don't seem to have a Newark office. --LinkRemoved--

22 offices worldwide, 2 of them in New York. 21 cities listed, Newark isn't one of them. So not sure how this is a hilarious indictment of anything.


--LinkRemoved--

???

defiance96
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby defiance96 » Thu May 12, 2011 3:00 pm

rad law wrote:
defiance96 wrote:
SetonHallstinks wrote:The most hilarious indictment of Seton Hall's poor reputation is the fact that Cozen O'Connor, a Biglaw firm with a large NJ office ACROSS THE STREET from Seton Hall in Gateway Building, does not do OCI at SH or even bother collecting resumes from SH:
--LinkRemoved--


They don't seem to have a Newark office. --LinkRemoved--

22 offices worldwide, 2 of them in New York. 21 cities listed, Newark isn't one of them. So not sure how this is a hilarious indictment of anything.


--LinkRemoved--

???


Interesting find, although then you look under people on that page and find one attorney, and even she is listed as also being in a New York office. --LinkRemoved--

Point being, it doesn't sound like they have much of a staff at all there, so that the one attorney listed isn't a Seton Hall grad doesn't really say much, except that they keep a token office in Newark for a New York-based attorney.

keg411
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby keg411 » Thu May 12, 2011 3:35 pm

Also, the thing about Lowenstein is wrong.

I just checked NALP and then have 10 entry levels expected to start in 2011 and 13 SA's for this coming summer. I have no clue if any of them are from Seton Hall (nor do I care, since I don't go there), but they do still have a summer program and are still hiring entry levels. While I don't give a shit about Seton Hall, I do give a shit about Lowenstein since it's my "hometown" BigLaw firm.




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