Seton Hall?

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IHaveLawyers
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Seton Hall?

Postby IHaveLawyers » Thu May 05, 2011 6:43 pm

I know that TLS and other bloggers usually bash Seton Hall Law school. I was recently admitted to the school with a 20K scholarship and have been researching the school. Although I have read a lot of bad things, I have read a lot of good things as well.

Here are just some of the positives. (* denoted my other options)

1. It was named one of the "Go-To" schools by Law.com, it beat out schools like Cardozo, Hastings, Wisconsin, Maryland*, UNC, and Houston* - you never hear anything bad about these schools.

2. Super Lawyer also ranked the school well at 40, ahead of Case Western*, Baylor, Notre Dame, Rutgers*.

3. The Law school has been recently moving up in ranking from the lower 70s to 61 this year.

Now for some Negatives

1. High Cost of living and attendance, close to 60k /yr without aid

2. Employment data, only 92% employment within 9 months.

3. Only 40% went into private practice - median salary of $125 w/ 65% reporting (85 people are reporting that salary), another 40% went to clerkships making 40K. I don't think these clerkships are like those from Yale and Harvard more like traffic court? Correct me if I'm wrong.

So what I want to know is why the school has a bad rep, is it just the fact that it costs so much? Or are these ranking fudged? Any insight would be helpful, but please don't get into irrelevant arguments or just bash the school without factual data. Thanks.
Last edited by IHaveLawyers on Thu May 05, 2011 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TLSNYC
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby TLSNYC » Thu May 05, 2011 7:46 pm

Don't go.

My friend is currently a 2L there. She was admitted on the second-highest scholarship they have and she lost it, because they stacked her section with almost all of the major scholarship winners. No matter what, half of them had to lose it. Tells you a lot about the school.

If your money has no stips, then MAYBE consider going, if you're set on not retaking the LSAT.

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Thu May 05, 2011 7:58 pm

The problem with refraining from bashing the school unless we have factual data is that the school conceals a lot of the factual data we would need to bash it...

Also, I dunno wtf law.com is, but you DO hear bad things about schools like Cardozo and Hastings.

To answer your actual question, bad rep is a combination of high cost and low rank on totem pole in saturated market. It's not that no one should go period, but 40k per year is too much to pay.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu May 05, 2011 8:03 pm

I still think section stacking is a myth that has not been conclusively proven in any anecdote I've ever heard...Unless you get all the students in every section to get together there is really no way of knowing if there are a disproportionate number of scholarship students in a section.

Anyway, what are your other options?

A few things regardless of your other options though:

1. The go to law school's ranking indicates that only 12% of grads got NLJ 250 jobs. That ain't that hot my friend.

2. The Super Lawyers ranking is slanted towards schools that produce the most grads because it simply reports the schools that have the most Super Lawyers.

3. Moving up, down, left or right in the US News Rankings doesn't change what Seton Hall is, and the opportunities that are going to be available to its grads.

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IHaveLawyers
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby IHaveLawyers » Thu May 05, 2011 8:31 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:I still think section stacking is a myth that has not been conclusively proven in any anecdote I've ever heard...Unless you get all the students in every section to get together there is really no way of knowing if there are a disproportionate number of scholarship students in a section.

Anyway, what are your other options?

A few things regardless of your other options though:

1. The go to law school's ranking indicates that only 12% of grads got NLJ 250 jobs. That ain't that hot my friend.

2. The Super Lawyers ranking is slanted towards schools that produce the most grads because it simply reports the schools that have the most Super Lawyers.

3. Moving up, down, left or right in the US News Rankings doesn't change what Seton Hall is, and the opportunities that are going to be available to its grads.


Thank you for a good response.

I am not trying to argue in favor of or against this school, I am trying to be objective as possible. I have 10K scholarship guarantee for all 3 years, and another 10K if I stay in top 50%. Cost is not my biggest concern because I have a college fund (74K) that I have not drawn from yet.

Yes, only 12% get big law jobs. But that is about 50 students, because the class is huge. This is a bigger number from all of my options - not by percentage but by actual number of grads.

Also, I agree that Super Lawyer ranking is not that meaningful but I think it hold some weight no? Some of the schools below Seton Hall and above Seton Hall have bigger and small class sizes so I don't know if it is accurate to say that it is slanted one way or another. I would think that the more super lawyers a school have, the better you networking options are right?

BaiAilian2013, I know it's hard to bash a school without data and am aware that schools hide it. But I would like to see something. I think if a school is talked about as bad as Seton Hall, then it would not be so hard to find something to pin point the negativity. Just my opinion.

TLSNYC, Is money the only factor in this decision? What does your friend have to say about job prospects and the school as a whole?

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IHaveLawyers
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby IHaveLawyers » Thu May 05, 2011 8:35 pm

BaiAilian2013 wrote:Also, I dunno wtf law.com is, but you DO hear bad things about schools like Cardozo and Hastings.


Yes you do, but is it warranted? Cardozo puts like 35% of their class in V250 jobs. Thats pretty good imo... And Hastings kills it too, with 40%. So unless you are expecting a big law job going into law school, I think those numbers are pretty legitimate.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu May 05, 2011 8:42 pm

My main point was that the super lawyers ranking shouldn't enter into your decision making process at all.

Anyway, with 10k guaranteed and another 10k with a pretty reasonable stipulation, I'd say you're not that bad off. You haven't revealed your other offers, but if:

Seton Hall is the best offer financially

You visit and aren't turned off by the school/area

You don't mind practicing in NJ with a minuscule shot at NY

You go in eyes open about the reality that you are more likely to be unemployed or underemployed than in a 30th floor big law office

GO

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IHaveLawyers
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby IHaveLawyers » Thu May 05, 2011 8:45 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
You go in eyes open about the reality that you are more likely to be unemployed or underemployed than in a 30th floor big law office



Haha, this is the only thing I'm worried about. I am not set on a big law job, but I would like to be well off maybe 80k-ish. I guess that is my main question. Is 80K a reasonable expectation coming out of Seton Hall?

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Grizz
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby Grizz » Thu May 05, 2011 8:48 pm

IHaveLawyers wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
You go in eyes open about the reality that you are more likely to be unemployed or underemployed than in a 30th floor big law office



Haha, this is the only thing I'm worried about. I am not set on a big law job, but I would like to be well off maybe 80k-ish. I guess that is my main question. Is 80K a reasonable expectation coming out of Seton Hall?


Thanks to the bimodal salary distribution curve, there aren't a lot of those jobs in the area. It's largely biglaw or small firm/govt. So no.

TLSNYC
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby TLSNYC » Thu May 05, 2011 8:57 pm

IHaveLawyers wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:I still think section stacking is a myth that has not been conclusively proven in any anecdote I've ever heard...Unless you get all the students in every section to get together there is really no way of knowing if there are a disproportionate number of scholarship students in a section.

Anyway, what are your other options?

A few things regardless of your other options though:

1. The go to law school's ranking indicates that only 12% of grads got NLJ 250 jobs. That ain't that hot my friend.

2. The Super Lawyers ranking is slanted towards schools that produce the most grads because it simply reports the schools that have the most Super Lawyers.

3. Moving up, down, left or right in the US News Rankings doesn't change what Seton Hall is, and the opportunities that are going to be available to its grads.


Thank you for a good response.

I am not trying to argue in favor of or against this school, I am trying to be objective as possible. I have 10K scholarship guarantee for all 3 years, and another 10K if I stay in top 50%. Cost is not my biggest concern because I have a college fund (74K) that I have not drawn from yet.

Yes, only 12% get big law jobs. But that is about 50 students, because the class is huge. This is a bigger number from all of my options - not by percentage but by actual number of grads.

Also, I agree that Super Lawyer ranking is not that meaningful but I think it hold some weight no? Some of the schools below Seton Hall and above Seton Hall have bigger and small class sizes so I don't know if it is accurate to say that it is slanted one way or another. I would think that the more super lawyers a school have, the better you networking options are right?

BaiAilian2013, I know it's hard to bash a school without data and am aware that schools hide it. But I would like to see something. I think if a school is talked about as bad as Seton Hall, then it would not be so hard to find something to pin point the negativity. Just my opinion.

TLSNYC, Is money the only factor in this decision? What does your friend have to say about job prospects and the school as a whole?


She felt like competition felt somewhat cut-throat, because of job prospects, i.e. students know they have to be as close to the top as possible for a legitimate shot at a well-paying job, and so she felt as though that really showed in her interactions with students. We were actually dating during her part of her 1L, and when I met her friends, I could see what she meant. FWIW, she hasn't liked it much there, but I think that's moreso because she is not doing so well. If she had top grades and a better shot at a good job, I'm sure she'd be singing a different tune.

If you have more questions about her experience, in particular, you can PM me.

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IHaveLawyers
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby IHaveLawyers » Thu May 05, 2011 9:05 pm

rad law wrote:
IHaveLawyers wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
You go in eyes open about the reality that you are more likely to be unemployed or underemployed than in a 30th floor big law office



Haha, this is the only thing I'm worried about. I am not set on a big law job, but I would like to be well off maybe 80k-ish. I guess that is my main question. Is 80K a reasonable expectation coming out of Seton Hall?


Thanks to the bimodal salary distribution curve, there aren't a lot of those jobs in the area. It's largely biglaw or small firm/govt. So no.


You say this with great authority. Can you explain what makes you say that these jobs are not there? Also, if you read the thread I said that big law job is not a must. Obviously, there is money and jobs out of big law. Most of my friends who went to law school are working for small 10-20 attorney firms and making 80kish.

From what I am hearing from current Seton Hall 2L/3L is the opposite. There are a lot to 70-80K jobs floating around. However, they do caution that 100K+ jobs are almost non existent.

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Grizz
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby Grizz » Thu May 05, 2011 9:25 pm

IHaveLawyers wrote:
rad law wrote:
IHaveLawyers wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
You go in eyes open about the reality that you are more likely to be unemployed or underemployed than in a 30th floor big law office



Haha, this is the only thing I'm worried about. I am not set on a big law job, but I would like to be well off maybe 80k-ish. I guess that is my main question. Is 80K a reasonable expectation coming out of Seton Hall?


Thanks to the bimodal salary distribution curve, there aren't a lot of those jobs in the area. It's largely biglaw or small firm/govt. So no.


You say this with great authority. Can you explain what makes you say that these jobs are not there? Also, if you read the thread I said that big law job is not a must. Obviously, there is money and jobs out of big law. Most of my friends who went to law school are working for small 10-20 attorney firms and making 80kish.

From what I am hearing from current Seton Hall 2L/3L is the opposite. There are a lot to 70-80K jobs floating around. However, they do caution that 100K+ jobs are almost non existent.


Do a search on the bimodal salary distribution curve on TLS and check it out. I swear I'm not talking out of my ass, or at least I am as much as the 2Ls and 3Ls you're speaking with.

TheFactor
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby TheFactor » Thu May 05, 2011 9:32 pm

IHaveLawyers wrote:
BaiAilian2013 wrote:Also, I dunno wtf law.com is, but you DO hear bad things about schools like Cardozo and Hastings.


Yes you do, but is it warranted? Cardozo puts like 35% of their class in V250 jobs. Thats pretty good imo... And Hastings kills it too, with 40%. So unless you are expecting a big law job going into law school, I think those numbers are pretty legitimate.

Um, no. Cut those percentages in half and you're getting closer.

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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby IHaveLawyers » Thu May 05, 2011 9:40 pm

I understand the salary distribution. I guess it's your words against theirs.

So, I guess according to you guys, UC Davis, William & Mary, SMU, Notre Dame, and Wake Forest are just as bad if not worse? They places less in big law jobs than Seton Hall.

TheFactor
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby TheFactor » Thu May 05, 2011 9:42 pm

IHaveLawyers wrote:I understand the salary distribution. I guess it's your words against theirs.

So, I guess according to you guys, UC Davis, William & Mary, SMU, Notre Dame, and Wake Forest are just as bad if not worse? They places less in big law jobs than Seton Hall.

Where are you getting your information? This is also false.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162

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IHaveLawyers
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby IHaveLawyers » Thu May 05, 2011 9:42 pm

TheFactor wrote:
IHaveLawyers wrote:
BaiAilian2013 wrote:Also, I dunno wtf law.com is, but you DO hear bad things about schools like Cardozo and Hastings.


Yes you do, but is it warranted? Cardozo puts like 35% of their class in V250 jobs. Thats pretty good imo... And Hastings kills it too, with 40%. So unless you are expecting a big law job going into law school, I think those numbers are pretty legitimate.

Um, no. Cut those percentages in half and you're getting closer.


I am sorry, you are right.

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IHaveLawyers
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby IHaveLawyers » Thu May 05, 2011 9:46 pm

TheFactor wrote:
IHaveLawyers wrote:I understand the salary distribution. I guess it's your words against theirs.

So, I guess according to you guys, UC Davis, William & Mary, SMU, Notre Dame, and Wake Forest are just as bad if not worse? They places less in big law jobs than Seton Hall.

Where are you getting your information? This is also false.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162


How is that false? Are we looking at the same data? Here are the numbers for hired and promoted after first year. The only metric is beaten by SMU with sending 1 more person to big law than Seton Hall.

Seton Hall : 41 / 49

UC Davis : 30 / 33
W&M : 29 / 36
SMU: 42 / 49
Notre Dame : 41 / 48
Wake Forest : 25/ 34

mrwarre85
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby mrwarre85 » Thu May 05, 2011 9:57 pm

IHaveLawyers wrote:
TheFactor wrote:
IHaveLawyers wrote:I understand the salary distribution. I guess it's your words against theirs.

So, I guess according to you guys, UC Davis, William & Mary, SMU, Notre Dame, and Wake Forest are just as bad if not worse? They places less in big law jobs than Seton Hall.

Where are you getting your information? This is also false.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162


How is that false? Are we looking at the same data? Here are the numbers for hired and promoted after first year. The only metric is beaten by SMU with sending 1 more person to big law than Seton Hall.

Seton Hall : 41 / 49

UC Davis : 30 / 33
W&M : 29 / 36
SMU: 42 / 49
Notre Dame : 41 / 48
Wake Forest : 25/ 34


Dude. You have to take into account class size. If Cooley had 243,444 people per class, and placed 43 of them in Biglaw, would Cooley be a better law school than Seton Hall?

mrwarre85
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby mrwarre85 » Thu May 05, 2011 10:00 pm

Also, I have a 1L buddy at Seton Hall and he had pretty much a 4.0 during the first semester. I asked him about it and he said " Seton Hall is.. alright." He is probably going to transfer.

If anyone was going to like it, it was going to be him.

FloridaCoastalorbust
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby FloridaCoastalorbust » Thu May 05, 2011 10:07 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:Also, I have a 1L buddy at Seton Hall and he had pretty much a 4.0 during the first semester. I asked him about it and he said " Seton Hall is.. alright." He is probably going to transfer.

If anyone was going to like it, it was going to be him.


Bill Findlay = NF

whymeohgodno
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby whymeohgodno » Thu May 05, 2011 10:10 pm

IHaveLawyers wrote:
BaiAilian2013 wrote:Also, I dunno wtf law.com is, but you DO hear bad things about schools like Cardozo and Hastings.


Yes you do, but is it warranted? Cardozo puts like 35% of their class in V250 jobs. Thats pretty good imo... And Hastings kills it too, with 40%. So unless you are expecting a big law job going into law school, I think those numbers are pretty legitimate.


WTF data are you looking at. Dozo does not put anywhere near 35% and neither does Hastings. Some T14's barely put 40% into NLJ250, you must hitting the pipe.

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IHaveLawyers
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby IHaveLawyers » Thu May 05, 2011 11:02 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
IHaveLawyers wrote:
BaiAilian2013 wrote:Also, I dunno wtf law.com is, but you DO hear bad things about schools like Cardozo and Hastings.


Yes you do, but is it warranted? Cardozo puts like 35% of their class in V250 jobs. Thats pretty good imo... And Hastings kills it too, with 40%. So unless you are expecting a big law job going into law school, I think those numbers are pretty legitimate.


WTF data are you looking at. Dozo does not put anywhere near 35% and neither does Hastings. Some T14's barely put 40% into NLJ250, you must hitting the pipe.


Did you not see me admit my mistake? Are you really itching to just post something?

whymeohgodno
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby whymeohgodno » Thu May 05, 2011 11:07 pm

IHaveLawyers wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
IHaveLawyers wrote:
BaiAilian2013 wrote:Also, I dunno wtf law.com is, but you DO hear bad things about schools like Cardozo and Hastings.


Yes you do, but is it warranted? Cardozo puts like 35% of their class in V250 jobs. Thats pretty good imo... And Hastings kills it too, with 40%. So unless you are expecting a big law job going into law school, I think those numbers are pretty legitimate.


WTF data are you looking at. Dozo does not put anywhere near 35% and neither does Hastings. Some T14's barely put 40% into NLJ250, you must hitting the pipe.


Did you not see me admit my mistake? Are you really itching to just post something?


I didn't read that far. Now that I have, I understand how uninformed you are.

Bimodals salaries are very real. Your friends are smoking the crack pipe if they think plenty of 80k jobs are out there. In NY especially, if you miss the biglaw boat there are very few/no firms that pay between 80-100k. You will most likely end up doing doc review like 50%+ of your class at Seton Hall.

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IHaveLawyers
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby IHaveLawyers » Thu May 05, 2011 11:10 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:
IHaveLawyers wrote:
TheFactor wrote:
IHaveLawyers wrote:I understand the salary distribution. I guess it's your words against theirs.

So, I guess according to you guys, UC Davis, William & Mary, SMU, Notre Dame, and Wake Forest are just as bad if not worse? They places less in big law jobs than Seton Hall.

Where are you getting your information? This is also false.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162


How is that false? Are we looking at the same data? Here are the numbers for hired and promoted after first year. The only metric is beaten by SMU with sending 1 more person to big law than Seton Hall.

Seton Hall : 41 / 49

UC Davis : 30 / 33
W&M : 29 / 36
SMU: 42 / 49
Notre Dame : 41 / 48
Wake Forest : 25/ 34




You have to take into account class size. If Cooley had 243,444 people per class, and placed 43 of them in Biglaw, would Cooley be a better law school than Seton Hall?


Dude. Did you not head the part in my post where I tell dumbasses like you to not posting anything if you don't have anything meaningful to say or back it up?

I understand the class size issue,but it's not as if Seton Hall has a class size of 1000 and these other schools are like 50 students. The different is more of less 20-35 students. For example, W&M was 250ish and Seton Hall was 280, but Seton Hall has part time program thats why the numbers are a tad different.

Cooley is not a relevant factor b/c they send 0 to big law. Instead of making a relevant argument, you are just bitching about another school. Let's be clear, Cooley and Seton Hall are not the same and if you try to compare the two you don't have any legitimacy with me.

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IHaveLawyers
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Re: Seton Hall?

Postby IHaveLawyers » Thu May 05, 2011 11:17 pm

Bimodals salaries are very real. Your friends are smoking the crack pipe if they think plenty of 80k jobs are out there. In NY especially, if you miss the biglaw boat there are very few/no firms that pay between 80-100k. You will most likely end up doing doc review like 50%+ of your class at Seton Hall.


Lol, people like you just can't look past the little things.

Where are you stats coming from friend? Do you have access to some documents that prove your point yet you are not allowed to reveal them ala bin Laden photos?

What I was asking in this thread was simple, yet you have manged to make this into a messy name-calling venture. Grow the fuck up. I am not trying to defend Seton Hall or speak in favor of it, I am just trying to collect information and see why it has such a bad rap when other schools place similarly to Seton Hall. There was only one person out of all of you that made a meaningful contribution to this thread, the rest of you just run your month with opinions you deem to be fact.




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