NU vs. UPenn - Made my decision, thanks.

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NU or UPenn? (Please read OP)

NU
39
44%
UPenn
49
56%
 
Total votes: 88

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dpk711
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby dpk711 » Fri May 06, 2011 3:39 pm

bdubs wrote:
Bumi wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

How would you rank the T14 for someone who wants Chicago?


Chicago, Yale, Harvard, Stanford
...
Northwestern, Michigan
...
Columbia, NYU, Penn, Virginia, Berkeley, Duke, Cornell, Georgetown
...
Texas

Texas aint no T14.

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby Upton Sinclair » Fri May 06, 2011 3:40 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote:i have no fucking idea. i blame fatduck's self ban. anyway, i pretty much switched it up to GT/Banter/BP when i want to be obscene, and it's all good.


It's obviously the lack of picwhoring. Which brings me back to blaming you. Exclusively.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby paulinaporizkova » Fri May 06, 2011 3:42 pm

Upton Sinclair wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:i have no fucking idea. i blame fatduck's self ban. anyway, i pretty much switched it up to GT/Banter/BP when i want to be obscene, and it's all good.


It's obviously the lack of picwhoring. Which brings me back to blaming you fatduck. Exclusively.


he brought the hotness, for real

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby Upton Sinclair » Fri May 06, 2011 3:44 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote:
Upton Sinclair wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:i have no fucking idea. i blame fatduck's self ban. anyway, i pretty much switched it up to GT/Banter/BP when i want to be obscene, and it's all good.


It's obviously the lack of picwhoring. Which brings me back to blaming you fatduck. Exclusively.


he brought the hotness, for real


That's because I've never done it :wink:

Also, if anyone wants to keep this thing on topic, I would really appreciate it. I'm sabatoging my own thread here.

Bumi
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby Bumi » Fri May 06, 2011 3:46 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote:
Bumi wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

How would you rank the T14 for someone who wants Chicago?


whoa whoa whoa there. just a general observation, no need to get snippy

Whoa yourself. I didn't want to be snippy! Reread my question, but imagine me asking it calmly and curiously, in a speculative interested way, over an expensive whiskey. Also imagine you are drinking whiskey too and gazing pensively into the Chicago sunset from a rooftop bar. Also, we each have supermodels of whatever gender we prefer on our arm, hanging on our ever word. Models love law talk.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby paulinaporizkova » Fri May 06, 2011 3:49 pm

Bumi wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:
Bumi wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

How would you rank the T14 for someone who wants Chicago?


whoa whoa whoa there. just a general observation, no need to get snippy

Whoa yourself. I didn't want to be snippy! Reread my question, but imagine me asking it calmly and curiously, in a speculative interested way, over an expensive whiskey. Also imagine you are drinking whiskey too and gazing pensively into the Chicago sunset from a rooftop bar. Also, we each have supermodels of whatever gender we prefer on our arm, hanging on our ever word. Models love law talk.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

okay okay. my bad

Bumi
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby Bumi » Fri May 06, 2011 4:55 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

okay okay. my bad

Hey no big deal. I'm a dick on TLS a lot, I was just surprised that THIS was the time I get called out on it. It's an interesting question! I would have though Columbia would be a tier higher than NU for Chicago, for example, but I'm just an 0L.

:toasts OP:

:sips whiskey:

jeremysen
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby jeremysen » Fri May 06, 2011 4:57 pm

bdubs wrote:
TLSNYC wrote:The difference between the two might change in favor Penn if you compare NLJ250+ Art III. Or it might not. I've never really heard of NW being all that strong for clerkships.


Penn consistently has more grads in article III clerkships, but the differences are small enough that it doesn't really change the picture much.

FYI - Northwestern placed 6.8% to Penn's 10.9% in 2007, every year since has had a smaller gap in clerkship placements.


Be aware that when you actually multiply it out, it's ~25 students vs ~19 students - a difference of ~5, which can be potentially explained by a difference in proportion of people who actually report this information...statistically insignificant

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby Upton Sinclair » Fri May 06, 2011 5:01 pm

I've been trying to hit the damn golf course for almost a month (damn Cleveland weather). It's finally happening today. Maybe I will get some clarity while I mash the ball off the tee.

Thanks again everyone for all your help so far and in the future.

bdubs
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby bdubs » Fri May 06, 2011 5:08 pm

jeremysen wrote:Be aware that when you actually multiply it out, it's ~25 students vs ~19 students - a difference of ~5, which can be potentially explained by a difference in proportion of people who actually report this information...statistically insignificant


Yes, small differences in terms of absolute number of students, but that is always true when you talk about graduating classes of <300. The school puts in a lot of effort to help grads secure clekships, I highly doubt that they are going unreported.

jeremysen
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby jeremysen » Fri May 06, 2011 9:26 pm

bdubs wrote:
jeremysen wrote:Be aware that when you actually multiply it out, it's ~25 students vs ~19 students - a difference of ~5, which can be potentially explained by a difference in proportion of people who actually report this information...statistically insignificant


Yes, small differences in terms of absolute number of students, but that is always true when you talk about graduating classes of <300. The school puts in a lot of effort to help grads secure clekships, I highly doubt that they are going unreported.


One unaccounted for person would be a 0.5% plus, and while it'd be likely that the schools track their students down, it would still be foolish to say that those stats are flawless year to year. So again, OP should not make a decision between the two schools based off a 1.5% to 2% difference.

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johnnyutah
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby johnnyutah » Sat May 07, 2011 8:39 am

I chose between these same schools. I ended up making my decision entirely based on the city I'd rather live in for three years, and I think I made the right one. Hope this helps.

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ahduth
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby ahduth » Sat May 07, 2011 1:50 pm

I should have looked at this before for myself, in case I want to get back to the heartland lol. I included HLS, CLS and NYU to have a general comparison set of how "transferable" these east coast degrees are back to Chicago. Mayer, Jenner and DLA don't allow you to search by school, and Baker is like... a mess. They employ a bunch of CLS and NYU LLMs, and I dunno. Not many people from Penn work there and a bunch of NU people do, fwiw.

Sidley (associates)
CLS 17, 0 in Chicago
HLS 66, 40 in Chicago
NYU 28, 3 in Chicago
NU 40, 26 in Chicago
Penn 16, 5 in Chicago

Kirkland (associates)
CLS 32, 3 in Chicago
HLS 68, 16 in Chicago
NYU 37, 8 in Chicago
NU 55, 46 in Chicago
Penn 19, 6 in Chicago

McDermott (all attorneys)
CLS 11, 1 in Chicago
HLS 11, 3 in Chicago
NYU 42, 6 in Chicago
NU 47, 43 in Chicago
Penn 6, 2 in Chicago

Winston (associates)
CLS 14, 2 in Chicago
HLS 11, 4 in Chicago
NYU 10, 1 in Chicago
NU 19, 15 in Chicago
Penn 7, 3 in Chicago

Seyfarth (associates)
CLS 4, 0 in Chicago
HLS 1, 1 in Chicago
NYU 3, 1 in Chicago
NU 5, 4 in Chicago
Penn 0, 0 in Chicago

Katten (associates)
CLS 0,0 in Chicago
HLS 6, 2 in Chicago
NYU 6, 2 in Chicago
NU 14, 13 in Chicago
Penn 3, 0 in Chicago

So... I'd say if you want elite big law in Chicago, you probably go to Northwestern. I'm inclined to think Penn's weakness with top Chicago firms isn't purely self-selection - the T6 has also taken more non-Chicago seats with these firms as well.

TLSNYC
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby TLSNYC » Sat May 07, 2011 1:53 pm

ahduth wrote:I should have looked at this before for myself, in case I want to get back to the heartland lol. I included HLS, CLS and NYU to have a general comparison set of how "transferable" these east coast degrees are back to Chicago. Mayer, Jenner and DLA don't allow you to search by school, and Baker is like... a mess. They employ a bunch of CLS and NYU LLMs, and I dunno. Not many people from Penn work there and a bunch of NU people do, fwiw.

Sidley (associates)
CLS 17, 0 in Chicago
HLS 66, 40 in Chicago
NYU 28, 3 in Chicago
NU 40, 26 in Chicago
Penn 16, 5 in Chicago

Kirkland (associates)
CLS 32, 3 in Chicago
HLS 68, 16 in Chicago
NYU 37, 8 in Chicago
NU 55, 46 in Chicago
Penn 19, 6 in Chicago

McDermott (all attorneys)
CLS 11, 1 in Chicago
HLS 11, 3 in Chicago
NYU 42, 6 in Chicago
NU 47, 43 in Chicago
Penn 6, 2 in Chicago

Winston (associates)
CLS 14, 2 in Chicago
HLS 11, 4 in Chicago
NYU 10, 1 in Chicago
NU 19, 15 in Chicago
Penn 7, 3 in Chicago

Seyfarth (associates)
CLS 4, 0 in Chicago
HLS 1, 1 in Chicago
NYU 3, 1 in Chicago
NU 5, 4 in Chicago
Penn 0, 0 in Chicago

Katten (associates)
CLS 0,0 in Chicago
HLS 6, 2 in Chicago
NYU 6, 2 in Chicago
NU 14, 13 in Chicago
Penn 3, 0 in Chicago

So... I'd say if you want elite big law in Chicago, you probably go to Northwestern. I'm inclined to think Penn's weakness with top Chicago firms isn't purely self-selection - the T6 has also taken more non-Chicago seats with these firms as well.


I think class size is something worth considering -- Penn is only around 250 students, so when you make a claim about it's potential weakness on the basis of strictly raw numbers, you're missing an important point. After all, NYU and HLS are twice as large (maybe even larger than that) and CLS is almost twice as large. I think if OP were looking to end up on anywhere but Chicago, Penn would be the obvious answer, but NW certainly seems to do very well with Chicago firms.

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ahduth
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby ahduth » Sat May 07, 2011 1:58 pm

TLSNYC wrote:I think class size is something worth considering -- Penn is only around 250 students, so when you make a claim about it's potential weakness on the basis of strictly raw numbers, you're missing an important point. After all, NYU and HLS are twice as large (maybe even larger than that) and CLS is almost twice as large. I think if OP were looking to end up on anywhere but Chicago, Penn would be the obvious answer, but NW certainly seems to do very well with Chicago firms.


Ah definitely, I had no idea their class was that small. That definitely shades the numbers differently.

Edit: Class sizes are:

CLS 397
HLS 559
NYU 450
NU 271
Penn 255

I'm not quite as convinced now that NU is absolutely the way to go necessarily lol. Penn actually does about as well as the T6 schools in this list, and a lot of the associates working in Chicago itself probably had ties. (That 66,40 number for Harvard makes me think that a lot of Chicagoans came back and took one of the top firms in the city, but that's pure speculation.)

Does Cleveland constitute a "tie" to Chicago? I'm inclined to think that hiring partners would be amenable to your desire to stay in the Midwest if you grew up in Cleveland.

09042014
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby 09042014 » Sat May 07, 2011 2:20 pm

ahduth wrote:
So... I'd say if you want elite big law in Chicago, you probably go to Northwestern. I'm inclined to think Penn's weakness with top Chicago firms isn't purely self-selection - the T6 has also taken more non-Chicago seats with these firms as well.


A big problem with Penn -> Chicago is the lack of schools at OCI. Many Big Chicago firms don't go to Penn. And even if he did get interviews they are going to ask for ties to Chicago. He shouldn't even waste OCI bids at Penn OCI on chicago firms. It'd be a total waste of time.

If OP prefers Chicago then NU is TCR.

For big law the schools are peers (don't look at one year's placement when there is such obvious varience year to year). But for Chicago NU>Penn. Penn will have a small lead in NYC.

jeremysen
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby jeremysen » Sat May 07, 2011 4:07 pm

ahduth wrote:
TLSNYC wrote:I think class size is something worth considering -- Penn is only around 250 students, so when you make a claim about it's potential weakness on the basis of strictly raw numbers, you're missing an important point. After all, NYU and HLS are twice as large (maybe even larger than that) and CLS is almost twice as large. I think if OP were looking to end up on anywhere but Chicago, Penn would be the obvious answer, but NW certainly seems to do very well with Chicago firms.


Ah definitely, I had no idea their class was that small. That definitely shades the numbers differently.

Edit: Class sizes are:

CLS 397
HLS 559
NYU 450
NU 271
Penn 255

I'm not quite as convinced now that NU is absolutely the way to go necessarily lol. Penn actually does about as well as the T6 schools in this list, and a lot of the associates working in Chicago itself probably had ties. (That 66,40 number for Harvard makes me think that a lot of Chicagoans came back and took one of the top firms in the city, but that's pure speculation.)

Does Cleveland constitute a "tie" to Chicago? I'm inclined to think that hiring partners would be amenable to your desire to stay in the Midwest if you grew up in Cleveland.


Huh? those stats entirely point to NU being the right choice for Chicago...where are you getting that conclusion? Penn's class size is 250, NU's is 270 - this is very comparable. And for the Chicago employment per firm stats that were cited above, NU sends an overwhelmingly greater # of students there.

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby Upton Sinclair » Sat May 07, 2011 4:35 pm

Thanks for posting the stats, and thanks to DF for gracing this thread with his presence.

That was my feeling on Penn as well. I felt if I was going to get to Chicago or non-NYC firms (which is probably more important than Chicago, per se) that I was going to need to do the majority of the legwork outside of OCI. It seems that landing a job out of OCI is hard enough, let alone when you are wasting bids.

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ahduth
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby ahduth » Sat May 07, 2011 4:45 pm

jeremysen wrote:
ahduth wrote:
TLSNYC wrote:I think class size is something worth considering -- Penn is only around 250 students, so when you make a claim about it's potential weakness on the basis of strictly raw numbers, you're missing an important point. After all, NYU and HLS are twice as large (maybe even larger than that) and CLS is almost twice as large. I think if OP were looking to end up on anywhere but Chicago, Penn would be the obvious answer, but NW certainly seems to do very well with Chicago firms.


Ah definitely, I had no idea their class was that small. That definitely shades the numbers differently.

Edit: Class sizes are:

CLS 397
HLS 559
NYU 450
NU 271
Penn 255

I'm not quite as convinced now that NU is absolutely the way to go necessarily lol. Penn actually does about as well as the T6 schools in this list, and a lot of the associates working in Chicago itself probably had ties. (That 66,40 number for Harvard makes me think that a lot of Chicagoans came back and took one of the top firms in the city, but that's pure speculation.)

Does Cleveland constitute a "tie" to Chicago? I'm inclined to think that hiring partners would be amenable to your desire to stay in the Midwest if you grew up in Cleveland.


Huh? those stats entirely point to NU being the right choice for Chicago...where are you getting that conclusion? Penn's class size is 250, NU's is 270 - this is very comparable. And for the Chicago employment per firm stats that were cited above, NU sends an overwhelmingly greater # of students there.


It's not a conclusion really - I hadn't considered class size before. If Penn's placement power in Chicago is on par with at least CLS/NYU, then it's not as bad an option as I thought.

edit: The reason the OP might want to pick Penn would be a potentially easier time placing in NYC. Although you can obviously still do that out of Northwestern.

The OCI issue is fair I suppose, but from these numbers, at least some Penn graduates got into these places. Are you thinking more for lower ranked Chicago firms?

09042014
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby 09042014 » Sat May 07, 2011 4:53 pm

CN and P's placement is irrelevant if he doesn't have ties to Chicago.

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ahduth
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby ahduth » Sat May 07, 2011 5:06 pm

Desert Fox wrote:CN and P's placement is irrelevant if he doesn't have ties to Chicago.


Yeah, I guess I've never entirely understood how "ties" work. Firms are worried people are going to bolt, presumably. Would being from Cleveland be enough evidence that the OP wasn't planning on bolting? Being from Chicago, if someone came to me and said they were looking to work for my firm because they were from Cleveland and didn't want to work in New York... I'd give that some credence.

Nevertheless, Penn doesn't open any doors for you in Chicago whatsoever, agreed.

Bumi
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby Bumi » Sun May 08, 2011 2:01 pm

Upton Sinclair wrote:I've been trying to hit the damn golf course for almost a month (damn Cleveland weather). It's finally happening today. Maybe I will get some clarity while I mash the ball off the tee.

Thanks again everyone for all your help so far and in the future.


How's the decision coming, OP? I'm definitely interested in what you choose to do.

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby Upton Sinclair » Mon May 09, 2011 11:34 am

Bumi wrote:How's the decision coming, OP? I'm definitely interested in what you choose to do.


I made the decision to withdraw from Penn and attend Northwestern over the weekend. It really came down to a few factors:

* I realized that I want to avoid NYC post-graduation if possible (COL, QOL).
* BigLaw opportunities won't be handicapped much by going to NU, if at all.
* For me, Chicago > Philadelphia.
* Completely unscientific: My gut is telling me I would be happier at NU.

So that's that. Thanks to everyone that voted and/or offered advice, I really appreciate it.

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dpk711
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Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby dpk711 » Mon May 09, 2011 12:27 pm

Upton Sinclair wrote:
Bumi wrote:How's the decision coming, OP? I'm definitely interested in what you choose to do.


I made the decision to withdraw from Penn and attend Northwestern over the weekend. It really came down to a few factors:

* I realized that I want to avoid NYC post-graduation if possible (COL, QOL).
* BigLaw opportunities won't be handicapped much by going to NU, if at all.
* For me, Chicago > Philadelphia.
* Completely unscientific: My gut is telling me I would be happier at NU.

So that's that. Thanks to everyone that voted and/or offered advice, I really appreciate it.

You couldn't have gone wrong either way. Enjoy NU!

bdubs
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Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:23 pm

Re: NU vs. UPenn

Postby bdubs » Mon May 09, 2011 12:29 pm

Upton Sinclair wrote:
Bumi wrote:How's the decision coming, OP? I'm definitely interested in what you choose to do.


I made the decision to withdraw from Penn and attend Northwestern over the weekend. It really came down to a few factors:

* I realized that I want to avoid NYC post-graduation if possible (COL, QOL).
* BigLaw opportunities won't be handicapped much by going to NU, if at all.
* For me, Chicago > Philadelphia.
* Completely unscientific: My gut is telling me I would be happier at NU.

So that's that. Thanks to everyone that voted and/or offered advice, I really appreciate it.


Congrats on your decision! Come join us in the NU CO 2014 thread

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