Texas aint no T14.bdubs wrote:Chicago, Yale, Harvard, StanfordBumi wrote:How would you rank the T14 for someone who wants Chicago?paulinaporizkova wrote:i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....
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Northwestern, Michigan
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Columbia, NYU, Penn, Virginia, Berkeley, Duke, Cornell, Georgetown
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Texas
NU vs. UPenn - Made my decision, thanks. Forum
- dpk711
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
- Upton Sinclair
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
It's obviously the lack of picwhoring. Which brings me back to blaming you. Exclusively.paulinaporizkova wrote:i have no fucking idea. i blame fatduck's self ban. anyway, i pretty much switched it up to GT/Banter/BP when i want to be obscene, and it's all good.
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
he brought the hotness, for realUpton Sinclair wrote:It's obviously the lack of picwhoring. Which brings me back to blamingpaulinaporizkova wrote:i have no fucking idea. i blame fatduck's self ban. anyway, i pretty much switched it up to GT/Banter/BP when i want to be obscene, and it's all good.youfatduck. Exclusively.
- Upton Sinclair
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
That's because I've never done itpaulinaporizkova wrote:he brought the hotness, for realUpton Sinclair wrote:It's obviously the lack of picwhoring. Which brings me back to blamingpaulinaporizkova wrote:i have no fucking idea. i blame fatduck's self ban. anyway, i pretty much switched it up to GT/Banter/BP when i want to be obscene, and it's all good.youfatduck. Exclusively.
Also, if anyone wants to keep this thing on topic, I would really appreciate it. I'm sabatoging my own thread here.
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
Whoa yourself. I didn't want to be snippy! Reread my question, but imagine me asking it calmly and curiously, in a speculative interested way, over an expensive whiskey. Also imagine you are drinking whiskey too and gazing pensively into the Chicago sunset from a rooftop bar. Also, we each have supermodels of whatever gender we prefer on our arm, hanging on our ever word. Models love law talk.paulinaporizkova wrote:whoa whoa whoa there. just a general observation, no need to get snippyBumi wrote:How would you rank the T14 for someone who wants Chicago?paulinaporizkova wrote:i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
Bumi wrote:Whoa yourself. I didn't want to be snippy! Reread my question, but imagine me asking it calmly and curiously, in a speculative interested way, over an expensive whiskey. Also imagine you are drinking whiskey too and gazing pensively into the Chicago sunset from a rooftop bar. Also, we each have supermodels of whatever gender we prefer on our arm, hanging on our ever word. Models love law talk.paulinaporizkova wrote:whoa whoa whoa there. just a general observation, no need to get snippyBumi wrote:How would you rank the T14 for someone who wants Chicago?paulinaporizkova wrote:i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....
okay okay. my bad
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
Hey no big deal. I'm a dick on TLS a lot, I was just surprised that THIS was the time I get called out on it. It's an interesting question! I would have though Columbia would be a tier higher than NU for Chicago, for example, but I'm just an 0L.paulinaporizkova wrote:
okay okay. my bad
:toasts OP:
:sips whiskey:
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
Be aware that when you actually multiply it out, it's ~25 students vs ~19 students - a difference of ~5, which can be potentially explained by a difference in proportion of people who actually report this information...statistically insignificantbdubs wrote:Penn consistently has more grads in article III clerkships, but the differences are small enough that it doesn't really change the picture much.TLSNYC wrote: The difference between the two might change in favor Penn if you compare NLJ250+ Art III. Or it might not. I've never really heard of NW being all that strong for clerkships.
FYI - Northwestern placed 6.8% to Penn's 10.9% in 2007, every year since has had a smaller gap in clerkship placements.
- Upton Sinclair
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
I've been trying to hit the damn golf course for almost a month (damn Cleveland weather). It's finally happening today. Maybe I will get some clarity while I mash the ball off the tee.
Thanks again everyone for all your help so far and in the future.
Thanks again everyone for all your help so far and in the future.
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
Yes, small differences in terms of absolute number of students, but that is always true when you talk about graduating classes of <300. The school puts in a lot of effort to help grads secure clekships, I highly doubt that they are going unreported.jeremysen wrote:Be aware that when you actually multiply it out, it's ~25 students vs ~19 students - a difference of ~5, which can be potentially explained by a difference in proportion of people who actually report this information...statistically insignificant
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
One unaccounted for person would be a 0.5% plus, and while it'd be likely that the schools track their students down, it would still be foolish to say that those stats are flawless year to year. So again, OP should not make a decision between the two schools based off a 1.5% to 2% difference.bdubs wrote:Yes, small differences in terms of absolute number of students, but that is always true when you talk about graduating classes of <300. The school puts in a lot of effort to help grads secure clekships, I highly doubt that they are going unreported.jeremysen wrote:Be aware that when you actually multiply it out, it's ~25 students vs ~19 students - a difference of ~5, which can be potentially explained by a difference in proportion of people who actually report this information...statistically insignificant
- johnnyutah
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
I chose between these same schools. I ended up making my decision entirely based on the city I'd rather live in for three years, and I think I made the right one. Hope this helps.
- ahduth
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
I should have looked at this before for myself, in case I want to get back to the heartland lol. I included HLS, CLS and NYU to have a general comparison set of how "transferable" these east coast degrees are back to Chicago. Mayer, Jenner and DLA don't allow you to search by school, and Baker is like... a mess. They employ a bunch of CLS and NYU LLMs, and I dunno. Not many people from Penn work there and a bunch of NU people do, fwiw.
Sidley (associates)
CLS 17, 0 in Chicago
HLS 66, 40 in Chicago
NYU 28, 3 in Chicago
NU 40, 26 in Chicago
Penn 16, 5 in Chicago
Kirkland (associates)
CLS 32, 3 in Chicago
HLS 68, 16 in Chicago
NYU 37, 8 in Chicago
NU 55, 46 in Chicago
Penn 19, 6 in Chicago
McDermott (all attorneys)
CLS 11, 1 in Chicago
HLS 11, 3 in Chicago
NYU 42, 6 in Chicago
NU 47, 43 in Chicago
Penn 6, 2 in Chicago
Winston (associates)
CLS 14, 2 in Chicago
HLS 11, 4 in Chicago
NYU 10, 1 in Chicago
NU 19, 15 in Chicago
Penn 7, 3 in Chicago
Seyfarth (associates)
CLS 4, 0 in Chicago
HLS 1, 1 in Chicago
NYU 3, 1 in Chicago
NU 5, 4 in Chicago
Penn 0, 0 in Chicago
Katten (associates)
CLS 0,0 in Chicago
HLS 6, 2 in Chicago
NYU 6, 2 in Chicago
NU 14, 13 in Chicago
Penn 3, 0 in Chicago
So... I'd say if you want elite big law in Chicago, you probably go to Northwestern. I'm inclined to think Penn's weakness with top Chicago firms isn't purely self-selection - the T6 has also taken more non-Chicago seats with these firms as well.
Sidley (associates)
CLS 17, 0 in Chicago
HLS 66, 40 in Chicago
NYU 28, 3 in Chicago
NU 40, 26 in Chicago
Penn 16, 5 in Chicago
Kirkland (associates)
CLS 32, 3 in Chicago
HLS 68, 16 in Chicago
NYU 37, 8 in Chicago
NU 55, 46 in Chicago
Penn 19, 6 in Chicago
McDermott (all attorneys)
CLS 11, 1 in Chicago
HLS 11, 3 in Chicago
NYU 42, 6 in Chicago
NU 47, 43 in Chicago
Penn 6, 2 in Chicago
Winston (associates)
CLS 14, 2 in Chicago
HLS 11, 4 in Chicago
NYU 10, 1 in Chicago
NU 19, 15 in Chicago
Penn 7, 3 in Chicago
Seyfarth (associates)
CLS 4, 0 in Chicago
HLS 1, 1 in Chicago
NYU 3, 1 in Chicago
NU 5, 4 in Chicago
Penn 0, 0 in Chicago
Katten (associates)
CLS 0,0 in Chicago
HLS 6, 2 in Chicago
NYU 6, 2 in Chicago
NU 14, 13 in Chicago
Penn 3, 0 in Chicago
So... I'd say if you want elite big law in Chicago, you probably go to Northwestern. I'm inclined to think Penn's weakness with top Chicago firms isn't purely self-selection - the T6 has also taken more non-Chicago seats with these firms as well.
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
I think class size is something worth considering -- Penn is only around 250 students, so when you make a claim about it's potential weakness on the basis of strictly raw numbers, you're missing an important point. After all, NYU and HLS are twice as large (maybe even larger than that) and CLS is almost twice as large. I think if OP were looking to end up on anywhere but Chicago, Penn would be the obvious answer, but NW certainly seems to do very well with Chicago firms.ahduth wrote:I should have looked at this before for myself, in case I want to get back to the heartland lol. I included HLS, CLS and NYU to have a general comparison set of how "transferable" these east coast degrees are back to Chicago. Mayer, Jenner and DLA don't allow you to search by school, and Baker is like... a mess. They employ a bunch of CLS and NYU LLMs, and I dunno. Not many people from Penn work there and a bunch of NU people do, fwiw.
Sidley (associates)
CLS 17, 0 in Chicago
HLS 66, 40 in Chicago
NYU 28, 3 in Chicago
NU 40, 26 in Chicago
Penn 16, 5 in Chicago
Kirkland (associates)
CLS 32, 3 in Chicago
HLS 68, 16 in Chicago
NYU 37, 8 in Chicago
NU 55, 46 in Chicago
Penn 19, 6 in Chicago
McDermott (all attorneys)
CLS 11, 1 in Chicago
HLS 11, 3 in Chicago
NYU 42, 6 in Chicago
NU 47, 43 in Chicago
Penn 6, 2 in Chicago
Winston (associates)
CLS 14, 2 in Chicago
HLS 11, 4 in Chicago
NYU 10, 1 in Chicago
NU 19, 15 in Chicago
Penn 7, 3 in Chicago
Seyfarth (associates)
CLS 4, 0 in Chicago
HLS 1, 1 in Chicago
NYU 3, 1 in Chicago
NU 5, 4 in Chicago
Penn 0, 0 in Chicago
Katten (associates)
CLS 0,0 in Chicago
HLS 6, 2 in Chicago
NYU 6, 2 in Chicago
NU 14, 13 in Chicago
Penn 3, 0 in Chicago
So... I'd say if you want elite big law in Chicago, you probably go to Northwestern. I'm inclined to think Penn's weakness with top Chicago firms isn't purely self-selection - the T6 has also taken more non-Chicago seats with these firms as well.
- ahduth
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
Ah definitely, I had no idea their class was that small. That definitely shades the numbers differently.TLSNYC wrote:I think class size is something worth considering -- Penn is only around 250 students, so when you make a claim about it's potential weakness on the basis of strictly raw numbers, you're missing an important point. After all, NYU and HLS are twice as large (maybe even larger than that) and CLS is almost twice as large. I think if OP were looking to end up on anywhere but Chicago, Penn would be the obvious answer, but NW certainly seems to do very well with Chicago firms.
Edit: Class sizes are:
CLS 397
HLS 559
NYU 450
NU 271
Penn 255
I'm not quite as convinced now that NU is absolutely the way to go necessarily lol. Penn actually does about as well as the T6 schools in this list, and a lot of the associates working in Chicago itself probably had ties. (That 66,40 number for Harvard makes me think that a lot of Chicagoans came back and took one of the top firms in the city, but that's pure speculation.)
Does Cleveland constitute a "tie" to Chicago? I'm inclined to think that hiring partners would be amenable to your desire to stay in the Midwest if you grew up in Cleveland.
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
A big problem with Penn -> Chicago is the lack of schools at OCI. Many Big Chicago firms don't go to Penn. And even if he did get interviews they are going to ask for ties to Chicago. He shouldn't even waste OCI bids at Penn OCI on chicago firms. It'd be a total waste of time.ahduth wrote:
So... I'd say if you want elite big law in Chicago, you probably go to Northwestern. I'm inclined to think Penn's weakness with top Chicago firms isn't purely self-selection - the T6 has also taken more non-Chicago seats with these firms as well.
If OP prefers Chicago then NU is TCR.
For big law the schools are peers (don't look at one year's placement when there is such obvious varience year to year). But for Chicago NU>Penn. Penn will have a small lead in NYC.
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
Huh? those stats entirely point to NU being the right choice for Chicago...where are you getting that conclusion? Penn's class size is 250, NU's is 270 - this is very comparable. And for the Chicago employment per firm stats that were cited above, NU sends an overwhelmingly greater # of students there.ahduth wrote:Ah definitely, I had no idea their class was that small. That definitely shades the numbers differently.TLSNYC wrote:I think class size is something worth considering -- Penn is only around 250 students, so when you make a claim about it's potential weakness on the basis of strictly raw numbers, you're missing an important point. After all, NYU and HLS are twice as large (maybe even larger than that) and CLS is almost twice as large. I think if OP were looking to end up on anywhere but Chicago, Penn would be the obvious answer, but NW certainly seems to do very well with Chicago firms.
Edit: Class sizes are:
CLS 397
HLS 559
NYU 450
NU 271
Penn 255
I'm not quite as convinced now that NU is absolutely the way to go necessarily lol. Penn actually does about as well as the T6 schools in this list, and a lot of the associates working in Chicago itself probably had ties. (That 66,40 number for Harvard makes me think that a lot of Chicagoans came back and took one of the top firms in the city, but that's pure speculation.)
Does Cleveland constitute a "tie" to Chicago? I'm inclined to think that hiring partners would be amenable to your desire to stay in the Midwest if you grew up in Cleveland.
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- Upton Sinclair
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
Thanks for posting the stats, and thanks to DF for gracing this thread with his presence.
That was my feeling on Penn as well. I felt if I was going to get to Chicago or non-NYC firms (which is probably more important than Chicago, per se) that I was going to need to do the majority of the legwork outside of OCI. It seems that landing a job out of OCI is hard enough, let alone when you are wasting bids.
That was my feeling on Penn as well. I felt if I was going to get to Chicago or non-NYC firms (which is probably more important than Chicago, per se) that I was going to need to do the majority of the legwork outside of OCI. It seems that landing a job out of OCI is hard enough, let alone when you are wasting bids.
- ahduth
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
It's not a conclusion really - I hadn't considered class size before. If Penn's placement power in Chicago is on par with at least CLS/NYU, then it's not as bad an option as I thought.jeremysen wrote:Huh? those stats entirely point to NU being the right choice for Chicago...where are you getting that conclusion? Penn's class size is 250, NU's is 270 - this is very comparable. And for the Chicago employment per firm stats that were cited above, NU sends an overwhelmingly greater # of students there.ahduth wrote:Ah definitely, I had no idea their class was that small. That definitely shades the numbers differently.TLSNYC wrote:I think class size is something worth considering -- Penn is only around 250 students, so when you make a claim about it's potential weakness on the basis of strictly raw numbers, you're missing an important point. After all, NYU and HLS are twice as large (maybe even larger than that) and CLS is almost twice as large. I think if OP were looking to end up on anywhere but Chicago, Penn would be the obvious answer, but NW certainly seems to do very well with Chicago firms.
Edit: Class sizes are:
CLS 397
HLS 559
NYU 450
NU 271
Penn 255
I'm not quite as convinced now that NU is absolutely the way to go necessarily lol. Penn actually does about as well as the T6 schools in this list, and a lot of the associates working in Chicago itself probably had ties. (That 66,40 number for Harvard makes me think that a lot of Chicagoans came back and took one of the top firms in the city, but that's pure speculation.)
Does Cleveland constitute a "tie" to Chicago? I'm inclined to think that hiring partners would be amenable to your desire to stay in the Midwest if you grew up in Cleveland.
edit: The reason the OP might want to pick Penn would be a potentially easier time placing in NYC. Although you can obviously still do that out of Northwestern.
The OCI issue is fair I suppose, but from these numbers, at least some Penn graduates got into these places. Are you thinking more for lower ranked Chicago firms?
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
CN and P's placement is irrelevant if he doesn't have ties to Chicago.
- ahduth
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- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:55 am
Re: NU vs. UPenn
Yeah, I guess I've never entirely understood how "ties" work. Firms are worried people are going to bolt, presumably. Would being from Cleveland be enough evidence that the OP wasn't planning on bolting? Being from Chicago, if someone came to me and said they were looking to work for my firm because they were from Cleveland and didn't want to work in New York... I'd give that some credence.Desert Fox wrote:CN and P's placement is irrelevant if he doesn't have ties to Chicago.
Nevertheless, Penn doesn't open any doors for you in Chicago whatsoever, agreed.
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
How's the decision coming, OP? I'm definitely interested in what you choose to do.Upton Sinclair wrote:I've been trying to hit the damn golf course for almost a month (damn Cleveland weather). It's finally happening today. Maybe I will get some clarity while I mash the ball off the tee.
Thanks again everyone for all your help so far and in the future.
- Upton Sinclair
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Re: NU vs. UPenn
I made the decision to withdraw from Penn and attend Northwestern over the weekend. It really came down to a few factors:Bumi wrote:How's the decision coming, OP? I'm definitely interested in what you choose to do.
* I realized that I want to avoid NYC post-graduation if possible (COL, QOL).
* BigLaw opportunities won't be handicapped much by going to NU, if at all.
* For me, Chicago > Philadelphia.
* Completely unscientific: My gut is telling me I would be happier at NU.
So that's that. Thanks to everyone that voted and/or offered advice, I really appreciate it.
- dpk711
- Posts: 1241
- Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:24 pm
Re: NU vs. UPenn
You couldn't have gone wrong either way. Enjoy NU!Upton Sinclair wrote:I made the decision to withdraw from Penn and attend Northwestern over the weekend. It really came down to a few factors:Bumi wrote:How's the decision coming, OP? I'm definitely interested in what you choose to do.
* I realized that I want to avoid NYC post-graduation if possible (COL, QOL).
* BigLaw opportunities won't be handicapped much by going to NU, if at all.
* For me, Chicago > Philadelphia.
* Completely unscientific: My gut is telling me I would be happier at NU.
So that's that. Thanks to everyone that voted and/or offered advice, I really appreciate it.
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- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:23 pm
Re: NU vs. UPenn
Congrats on your decision! Come join us in the NU CO 2014 threadUpton Sinclair wrote:I made the decision to withdraw from Penn and attend Northwestern over the weekend. It really came down to a few factors:Bumi wrote:How's the decision coming, OP? I'm definitely interested in what you choose to do.
* I realized that I want to avoid NYC post-graduation if possible (COL, QOL).
* BigLaw opportunities won't be handicapped much by going to NU, if at all.
* For me, Chicago > Philadelphia.
* Completely unscientific: My gut is telling me I would be happier at NU.
So that's that. Thanks to everyone that voted and/or offered advice, I really appreciate it.
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