BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

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BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

BU (25k/yr) - edit
23
37%
BC (25kyr)
40
63%
 
Total votes: 63

dakatz
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby dakatz » Thu May 05, 2011 12:29 pm

aliarrow wrote:
Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:BU has made no assertion that it will cut its classize any time soon. It just cut its class size and will not likely do it again. Not sure why this is so hard to understand. The poster who posted this was just flaming.

The building was just renovated. There are no plans to put in a new building within the next two-three years, so it won't affect any current applicants. That was the point of the post. They have been trying to get a new building for years, as the current facilities are horrendous, but there are no plans to put a new building up any time soon. Again, flamebate.

I agree, if you like BU, go for it. But don't do so on the flamebate posted by Dakatz.


Informative, that you?


Haha, I was thinking the same thing. As the phoenix rises from the ashes, we sort of knew that informative would rise again. Hope I'm wrong. But he seems to have the same bitter inferiority complex with superlatives and overly-broad conclusions.

alumniguy
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby alumniguy » Thu May 05, 2011 12:31 pm

dakatz wrote:Sorry, I don't "flame". Next year's class size will be 30 less than the one before. I got this directly from the mouth of someone who works in admissions. Went to a presentation on the new building. Got to see the floorplans, artist renditions, etc. Looks really beautiful, and includes a full renovation of the existing tower. While it isn't set in stone yet, the plan it to get the construction started during the next school year, as to ensure that the class of 2014 gets one year in the building, though they won't publicly talk about this until it is certain.


Again, to me this is useless information. It is second hand. BU knows that if it dramatically cuts its class size that it is a good thing to talk about. Why hasn't it publicly stated this? If it has, then I would think OP should consider this as a good thing (it will further reduce the student/faculty rate). Wouldn't you think that BU would want to highlight the fact that it will be providing a more intimate learning environment? The same thing goes for the construction of the new building. Assuming that they are going to be starting construction next school year, I would imagine that BU would have made a public announcement to the that effect. I don't know if they've done so or not, but I would imagine that more people would be talking about this if they had done so.

At this point, both are still aspirational unless they've confirmed that they plan to do so.

aliarrow
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby aliarrow » Thu May 05, 2011 12:33 pm

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Last edited by aliarrow on Fri May 13, 2011 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dakatz
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby dakatz » Thu May 05, 2011 12:35 pm

alumniguy wrote:
dakatz wrote:Sorry, I don't "flame". Next year's class size will be 30 less than the one before. I got this directly from the mouth of someone who works in admissions. Went to a presentation on the new building. Got to see the floorplans, artist renditions, etc. Looks really beautiful, and includes a full renovation of the existing tower. While it isn't set in stone yet, the plan it to get the construction started during the next school year, as to ensure that the class of 2014 gets one year in the building, though they won't publicly talk about this until it is certain.


Again, to me this is useless information. It is second hand. BU knows that if it dramatically cuts its class size that it is a good thing to talk about. Why hasn't it publicly stated this? If it has, then I would think OP should consider this as a good thing (it will further reduce the student/faculty rate). Wouldn't you think that BU would want to highlight the fact that it will be providing a more intimate learning environment? The same thing goes for the construction of the new building. Assuming that they are going to be starting construction next school year, I would imagine that BU would have made a public announcement to the that effect. I don't know if they've done so or not, but I would imagine that more people would be talking about this if they had done so.

At this point, both are still aspirational unless they've confirmed that they plan to do so.


The class size reduction they have told students. I heard it being discussed during accepted students events. The building construction start date isn't set in stone so they don't want to jinx it by telling the class of 2014 they will have a year in the new building unless they are sure it is going to happen on that timeframe. And since its not set in stone yet, thats probably why they are holding off.

aliarrow
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby aliarrow » Thu May 05, 2011 12:39 pm

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Last edited by aliarrow on Fri May 13, 2011 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

alumniguy
Posts: 426
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby alumniguy » Thu May 05, 2011 1:07 pm

aliarrow wrote:
dakatz wrote:
alumniguy wrote:
Again, to me this is useless information. It is second hand. BU knows that if it dramatically cuts its class size that it is a good thing to talk about. Why hasn't it publicly stated this? If it has, then I would think OP should consider this as a good thing (it will further reduce the student/faculty rate). Wouldn't you think that BU would want to highlight the fact that it will be providing a more intimate learning environment? The same thing goes for the construction of the new building. Assuming that they are going to be starting construction next school year, I would imagine that BU would have made a public announcement to the that effect. I don't know if they've done so or not, but I would imagine that more people would be talking about this if they had done so.

At this point, both are still aspirational unless they've confirmed that they plan to do so.


The class size reduction they have told students. I heard it being discussed during accepted students events. The building construction start date isn't set in stone so they don't want to jinx it by telling the class of 2014 they will have a year in the new building unless they are sure it is going to happen on that timeframe. And since its not set in stone yet, thats probably why they are holding off.


They announced the new building at the ASD, if I recall correctly they said it *should* be up 2014


So then I would say that this is useful information. Again, BU is clearly making a run on its law school reputation. They've been throwing money at the program for years. It bodes well for its current students and shows that the school values its law program. However, I think there should be some caution with taking administrations on their prospective plans because they are exactly that, plans that have yet to be implemented. For example, they may decide to cut class sizes by only 10 students (which would be fully consistent with their message of cutting class sizes, but have little impact on student/faculty ratios or provide any meaningful difference to educational quality).

Just so I better understand, is the current matriculating class (i.e., the class of 2014) the reduced class year? Or is it the class of 2015?

Either way, it will be interesting to see how either of these two plans affects BU's rankings. Presumably student quality will go up as a result of a lower class number (it should be noted that BU's class is currently bigger than BC's class) and that should benefit BU. Spending per student would also likely go up (both due to reduced class size and to increased budget due to construction related costs - a temporary blip).

* * *

On a side note, as a BC alum, I am slightly concerned that BC has generally not been very proactive about *correcting* perceived problems with its law program. In my opinion they have clearly decided to spend more resources building their undergrad program than the law program (i.e., see the purchase of the old Catholic seminary grounds, new undergraduate housing, etc.). Perhaps the hope is that the improvements in undergrad reputation will allow their other programs, including the law program, to increase in reputation as well). I am not sure that any of this really translates into the quality of actual program though as I felt I had a first-rate education at BC. However, BC can only rest on its laurels for so long considering that BU is making an active play for a better law program. Hopefully it will spur BC to spend additional resources to improve its program as well.

aliarrow
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby aliarrow » Thu May 05, 2011 1:11 pm

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Last edited by aliarrow on Fri May 13, 2011 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

alumniguy
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby alumniguy » Thu May 05, 2011 1:22 pm

aliarrow wrote:They announced the size of the reduction, it should be about 20-30 students (for the c/o 2014). That plus the relative strength and quick recovery of BU's two major placement markets (Boston and NYC) bodes pretty well for the school. It wouldn't surprise me if it makes its way into the teens within the next year or two.

I agree BC could be doing more to keep up. The school has more name recognition and seems to have a slightly more established alumni base... If the adcomms decided to game the rankings as hard as BU (not that its a bad thing that BU does), they could probably surpass BU again.


Interesting. That class size would make it comparable to BC's class size. BU has been ranked in the teens before (19 I believe once or twice). While certainly an improvement, I think they'd need to get themselves into the UCLA/USC/Vandy trifecta to really change people's minds on their program. Moving up to compete with Minnesota, WUSTL and GW isn't going to change the playing field at all (in my opinion of course) as they are already competitive with these schools.

I do think that BU tends to game the rankings more than BC (and most other schools for that matter). BU always seem to have higher employed at graduation rates than its competitors and this is just surprising given all other employment statistics that are available. I also think they are overwhelmingly interested solely in LSAT/GPA and don't look much at other soft factors. BC seems to have also become more interested in LSAT/GPA as of late, which unfortunately is a necessary evil in the days of USNews rankings. Regardless, BU has clearly had success in the past with altering their program to move up the rankings and it seems like they have decided to try to improve their reputation even further. Barring a dramatic changes (e.g., lowering class size to under 200), I just don't see how they can move up into the next tier of quality though.

aliarrow
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby aliarrow » Thu May 05, 2011 1:25 pm

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Last edited by aliarrow on Fri May 13, 2011 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cupidity
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby Cupidity » Thu May 05, 2011 1:28 pm

Your numbers are off, they are cutting to 230 (from 287) so the cut is almost 60. I wouldn't characterize it as "making a run at the rankings," but rather as "much needed updates and remodeling."

Alumniguy, your style of reasoning is like that of a birther or now OBLdeather. Learn better analytical and rhetorical strategy or you will make a shitty lawyer.

aliarrow
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby aliarrow » Thu May 05, 2011 1:30 pm

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Last edited by aliarrow on Fri May 13, 2011 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cupidity
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby Cupidity » Thu May 05, 2011 1:32 pm

aliarrow wrote:
Cupidity wrote:Your numbers are off, they are cutting to 230 (from 287) so the cut is almost 60. I wouldn't characterize it as "making a run at the rankings," but rather as "much needed updates and remodeling."

Alumniguy, your style of reasoning is like that of a birther or now OBLdeather. Learn better analytical and rhetorical strategy or you will make a shitty lawyer.


I think alumniguy already is a lawyer


Excellent criticism of legal education.

alumniguy
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby alumniguy » Thu May 05, 2011 1:33 pm

aliarrow wrote:[The one thing that really turned me off to BU is the apparent employment gaming they do. They place 17% into "Academia" (a high number for even the T6) which corresponds almost perfectly to the % of grads they report as having only part-time employment, so I'm fairly certain 99% of the 17% employed in Academia are just working for the school in admissions, financial aid, or the CDO.


I do agree with this. Although, to be fair, I'm not sure how much I can fault them for doing so. It certainly isn't ethical if they are creating temporary jobs for their students solely to inflate their job numbers (which the circumstantial evidence suggests is the case). However, until their is a change in how schools report job information (i.e., there is more transparency in reporting), then this stuff is bound to happen.

FWIW, I think BC's alumni network and historical reputation provide its students with better non-biglaw opportunities than BU's. Each school places relatively the same amount of its top students into biglaw/clerkships, but it is the next tier that makes BC probably a safer bet at the moment. I think BU's recent rise is countering this to a degree, but I am not sure that it has fully caught up yet.

BU2013
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby BU2013 » Thu May 05, 2011 1:35 pm

aliarrow wrote:[The one thing that really turned me off to BU is the apparent employment gaming they do. They place 17% into "Academia" (a high number for even the T6) which corresponds almost perfectly to the % of grads they report as having only part-time employment, so I'm fairly certain 99% of the 17% employed in Academia are just working for the school in admissions, financial aid, or the CDO.


From what I understand the 17% includes student seeking additional degrees. I think it's students hiding from unemployment by pursuing an LLM or PhD, and not receiving temporary employment... which I suppose is even worse?

aliarrow
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby aliarrow » Thu May 05, 2011 1:40 pm

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Last edited by aliarrow on Fri May 13, 2011 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

alumniguy
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby alumniguy » Thu May 05, 2011 1:48 pm

Cupidity wrote:Your numbers are off, they are cutting to 230 (from 287) so the cut is almost 60. I wouldn't characterize it as "making a run at the rankings," but rather as "much needed updates and remodeling."

Alumniguy, your style of reasoning is like that of a birther or now OBLdeather. Learn better analytical and rhetorical strategy or you will make a shitty lawyer.


Again, I have no information about cuts other than this thread - which commenter aliarrow stated was in the range of 20-30 students (and which da Katz also indicated would be 30 students). If it is closer to 50-60 students, then this has some very real implications. This would result in significantly less students per section in the 1L classes. This could have a positive impact on educational quality in so far as it would allow professors to have more time to address individual questions. From what I know, BU's class used to be near 400 before they cut it down to their current numbers. That is a change that is transformational. However, a reduction of students from 20-30 isn't really going to do much to alter a student's quality of education - we are talking 8-10 students per section (presumably a section of 80 students vs. 90 students). Not really a game changer in my opinion. It does improve faculty student ratio and presumably spending per student. Again, these are factors used in the USNews rankings.

I am a lawyer. It is certainly open to debate whether I am competent or not. Either way, I think it is rather clear that BU is very concerned about its ranking and is not afraid to "game" the rankings. I point you to employment statistics, which others on this board and in this thread agree appear to be gamed. BU has been very successful in improving its law school. I am not taking anything away from them. I just see cutting class sizes as a means to attempt to increase their rankings even more. I guess I'm curious as to the rational for reducing class sizes by 20-30 students. It doesn't seem to be a game changer in my opinion.

Edit: This 20-30 reduction will also inevitably lead to higher LSAT/GPA numbers, which BU is hoping will be enough to increase its medians. This may in fact be the biggest factor involved here after thinking it over for a bit.
Last edited by alumniguy on Thu May 05, 2011 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aliarrow
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby aliarrow » Thu May 05, 2011 1:50 pm

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Last edited by aliarrow on Fri May 13, 2011 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

sullidop
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby sullidop » Thu May 05, 2011 1:59 pm

Well, this thread got snappy. OP, if you're leaning BU go there (although maybe take one last visit to both); 15k won't break the bank and is definitely worth paying if you think you'll be happier at BU.

dakatz
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby dakatz » Thu May 05, 2011 2:07 pm

sullidop wrote:Well, this thread got snappy. OP, if you're leaning BU go there (although maybe take one last visit to both); 15k won't break the bank and is definitely worth paying if you think you'll be happier at BU.


Yeah, I'm sorry I took the bait from Informative's new alter ego. I agree entirely with this. The $$ difference is very small and the schools are similar. If you have a preference, just go with your gut.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby JusticeHarlan » Thu May 05, 2011 2:12 pm

dakatz wrote:
sullidop wrote:Well, this thread got snappy. OP, if you're leaning BU go there (although maybe take one last visit to both); 15k won't break the bank and is definitely worth paying if you think you'll be happier at BU.


Yeah, I'm sorry I took the bait from Informative's new alter ego. I agree entirely with this. The $$ difference is very small and the schools are similar. If you have a preference, just go with your gut.

I"ll pile on with a +1: the schools are peers as far as placement is concerned, and it's up to OP to decide if that personal preference for one school is worth the difference in money. I don't think anyone can decide that for you.

aliarrow
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby aliarrow » Thu May 05, 2011 2:13 pm

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Last edited by aliarrow on Fri May 13, 2011 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

dakatz
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby dakatz » Thu May 05, 2011 2:15 pm

aliarrow wrote:
sullidop wrote:Well, this thread got snappy. OP, if you're leaning BU go there (although maybe take one last visit to both); 15k won't break the bank and is definitely worth paying if you think you'll be happier at BU.


Yeah that's the fate of all BU/BC threads.
Informative starts with misinformation and BC trolling, DaKatz argues, Cupidity is randomly testy... The only thing that's missing is Blindmelon (just picture an upperclassman version of DaKatz)


I always standby with my sword at my side to valiantly battle with whatever trolls that attack.

sullidop
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby sullidop » Thu May 05, 2011 2:17 pm

dakatz wrote:
sullidop wrote:Well, this thread got snappy. OP, if you're leaning BU go there (although maybe take one last visit to both); 15k won't break the bank and is definitely worth paying if you think you'll be happier at BU.


Yeah, I'm sorry I took the bait from Informative's new alter ego. I agree entirely with this. The $$ difference is very small and the schools are similar. If you have a preference, just go with your gut.

Image

fingersxd
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby fingersxd » Thu May 05, 2011 2:23 pm

aliarrow wrote:
sullidop wrote:Well, this thread got snappy. OP, if you're leaning BU go there (although maybe take one last visit to both); 15k won't break the bank and is definitely worth paying if you think you'll be happier at BU.


Yeah that's the fate of all BU/BC threads.
Informative starts with misinformation and BC trolling, DaKatz argues, Cupidity is randomly testy... The only thing that's missing is Blindmelon (just picture an upperclassman version of DaKatz)


Just happy we eventually got back to my intiial question - ha.

fingersxd
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Re: BU ($) vs. BC ($$)

Postby fingersxd » Thu May 05, 2011 3:54 pm

P.S. - I just spoke with BU. They are admitting roughly 30 less students than in prior years and their goal is to have the new wing ready for the Class of 2014 to use for their last year (though of course construction delays could push this back).

Better question - if BU matches the 25k from BC does this poll change? Right now it is almost 2:1 for BC. Money being equal does BU win out?




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