Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

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Aram24
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Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby Aram24 » Mon May 02, 2011 9:44 pm

Ok, I hope I'm doing everything right in making this thread and I've got a lot of specific questions that may or may not have been previous answered but I'd rather keep everything together in this thread to better explain my situation.

Anyway on to the questions:

I graduated from John Jay College with a 3.4 and a 153 LSAT score from December. I've received acceptance letters from Albany, Pace and UB buffalo currently. I was turned down from St. Johns and Seton Hall despite my father graduating from Seton Hall himself. To be frank, neither of these three schools were high up on my list and I'm rather disappointed. I'm waiting to hear from Cardozo and Fordham this week and they were my top two schools. My first question here basically, is what kind of job opportunities am I going to be looking at should I decide to go to these schools? How do people feel about the education? What is the recruitment like at these schools? What is scholarship money like? I'm a hispanic male if that matters. I have to seriously consider these schools as it's really not in my best interest to take anymore time off. Looking to find out what my best option out of these three schools would be.

My next questions is in regards to transfers:
I read the transfer section and frankly I'm not in a position where I can afford to take a whole year off with limited to no work opportunities to reapply and having at this point, been out of school for a whole year. Should I be denied to both Fordham and Cardozo which I assume is likely at this point, what would be needed in terms of grades and anything else to transfer after completion of my first year? I've never attempted to transfer before and I'm completely lost in the whole process. My family lives in the city and I'd much rather stay here in the city and go to a Fordham, Cardozo or even Seton Hall. Also, if I decide to apply for a transfer, does applying to a school out of state make a difference? Would I be more likely or less likely to be accepted? Again I understand it is risky to even begin thinking about a transfer while deciding where I go but I have to seriously consider it based on my situation.

Finally, is it irrational that I don't expect myself to be happy unless I go to one of these "top schools?" And does any have any personal experience to share maybe similar to my situation where they didn't get into their dream schools but transferred in later?

Appreciate the time anyone takes to respond to this thread and I'm sorry if the questions don't really make sense, I did my best to try to word them. I'm a bit emotional and frustrated so I apologize in advance and also thank anyone who responds in advance.

scammedhard
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby scammedhard » Mon May 02, 2011 9:49 pm

RETAKE

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northwood
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby northwood » Mon May 02, 2011 9:51 pm

go to UB. It has the best prospects, and at NYS tuition is the most affordable. You are going to be out at dozo setond hall and fordham. If you are dead set on going this year ( and are a NYS resident) then UB it is. If you are not a NYS resident- then your best bet would be to work a year and establish residency and then go. since you are going to do this- try again on the lsat. Buffalo will keep you in new york state ( most likely in western ny). If you dont like the idea of being in NYS for a long time- dont go.

As for transfers- dont go to a school with the intentions of transferring to another one. You have to be in the top of your class, and its very hard to do that. If you dont love the school- dont go to it.

scammedhard
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby scammedhard » Mon May 02, 2011 9:52 pm

Aram24 wrote:I have to seriously consider these schools as it's really not in my best interest to take anymore time off.

I should add that I think it is actually in your best interest to take time off.

Aram24
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby Aram24 » Mon May 02, 2011 10:27 pm

I guess I'm just afraid that if I take a year off, and don't do any better, I would of just wasted a year. I am a NYS resident and I'm trying to get a feel for buffalo before I make my final decision. What's the school like? I've heard it's a good school and the education is good, but I've also heard that the school was in some sort of decline, anyone able to elaborate? I also hate to be combative but why would be it be difficult to make it to or near the top of my class? I'm a pretty good student but tests like the LSAT always get me I took the testmasters course too and I just don't know if I could do any better. Frankly I feel that I might actually be able to do better working to get to the top of the class rather than hedging a bet on a higher LSAT score.

Again I appreciate the responses.

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mpj_3050
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby mpj_3050 » Mon May 02, 2011 10:39 pm

Aram24 wrote:Frankly I feel that I might actually be able to do better working to get to the top of the class rather than hedging a bet on a higher LSAT score.


Don't count on the above.

Retaking would be of little harm to you because even if you only manage a little bit higher you could presumably get some money from Buffalo. If you were accepted this cycle you probably will be next year so taking a year off to retake and save some money is your best option.

Aram24
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby Aram24 » Mon May 02, 2011 11:04 pm

Ok well, for the time being, assuming I don't get accepted to Cardozo and Fordham and give up on the transfer idea, is Buffalo itself a bad school? Or just not even worthwhile? Again I am a NYS resident so I would be going with a discount, before scholarships. Would graduating near the top of the class at a school like Buffalo still provide me with opportunities that going to another school like Cardozo or Fordham offer? Would I be that limited in terms of job prospects with buffalo?

I have a few connections in the NY legal market including my father so to some degree it doesn't matter what school I go to. At the same time though it's kind of always been my dream, as much of a pipe dream as it may sound, to get into baseball law/sports law/contract law. Would going to some where like Buffalo cripple a dream like that?

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Magnolia
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby Magnolia » Mon May 02, 2011 11:05 pm

Aram24 wrote:why would be it be difficult to make it to or near the top of my class? I'm a pretty good student ... I feel that I might actually be able to do better working to get to the top of the class rather than hedging a bet on a higher LSAT score.

It's difficult to make it to the top of your class because your competing against a bunch of students who are equally accomplished, who were equally good students, and who are willing to work just as hard or hard to be at the top of the class. Almost every student comes into law school thinking that they will be in the top 10% of the class, but the curve means that 90% won't be.

The nature of law school exams also makes them very unpredictable. They're unlike any test most people have ever taken before and there's no room for a learning curve. You won't get any feedback about your performance until you get the grade for your exam, and then it will be too late for improvement because that one grade makes up the entire grade for your class. You're also not just being graded on the merits of your own exam, but you're being compared to your fellow classmates. You don't just have to have the correct answer. You have to have an answer that's more correct than the correct answers that 90% of your classmates gave. That's extremely difficult to do.

It is much, much easier to get a high score on the LSAT. You can study indefinitely, you have practice tests which will allow you to monitor your progress and learn from your mistakes, and you're only being graded against yourself, not against every test taker. You will be better off waiting a year and retaking so that you can go to a better school with better employment prospects. Besides, 1L will be stressful enough. You don't need the added pressure of trying to transfer (or the heartache if you don't do well enough and end up stuck at a school you hate).

Retake and get into a school you want to go to, or don't go to law school.

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northwood
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby northwood » Mon May 02, 2011 11:10 pm

if you were accepted this cycle to UB and wanted to take a year off to hedge your bets - study for the test and try again- ask for a deferment from UB. That way you will automatically be accepted into the class of 2015- and if you dont do better on the test- thats where you go.

As a state resident- the only option that makes sense is UB. Albany is too expensive, Pace is too expensive andboth have bad job opportunities to boot. UB at the in state rate is 39,000 including cost of living ( until SUNY increases tuition). Keep in mind that buffalo does not give out a lot of money- and when they do they dont give out full tuition scholarships. As you know, the SUNY system is strapped or cash- so you will have to be above both 75%s to see some money.

As for transferring- everyone in law school is smart and works hard. It all comes down to who does better on the final exam and is able to score the most points on it. One test is your grade- not like in UG where you had multiple exams, with essays and class participation factored into the grading system. Here its one shot, one day. Too much to gamble on doing well- even if you do end up doing well, its such a crapshoot that you cant guarentee it. Buffalo has a good program- and is respected in western NY. If you do decide to sit out a year- make sure you get some sort of job so you can keep your costs down as much as possible.

Baseball and sports law are very hard to get into. You need solid connections and experience to get in. Dont bet on it. Cardozo and Fordham will give you a better chance at getting ajob in NYC. Buffalo may- but you will have to do most of the legwork. NYC is a very compeititve environment- as many students want to end up there ( same for DC, boston, chicago and most other big citites)

Aram24
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby Aram24 » Mon May 02, 2011 11:13 pm

Appreciate it guys thank you. I guess at this point I have to take a trip up to Buffalo and visit the school before I make a decision on whether or not I want to sit out.

tittsburghfeelers
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby tittsburghfeelers » Mon May 02, 2011 11:48 pm

Aram24 wrote:Appreciate it guys thank you. I guess at this point I have to take a trip up to Buffalo and visit the school before I make a decision on whether or not I want to sit out.


I'd probably suggest always visiting a place that you'll potentially spend the next 10 years of your life at before just going there on a whim.

adt231
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby adt231 » Mon May 02, 2011 11:53 pm

Aram24 wrote:Appreciate it guys thank you. I guess at this point I have to take a trip up to Buffalo and visit the school before I make a decision on whether or not I want to sit out.


Definitely check out Buffalo and see if you like enough to spend 3 years there. It is currently your best option BY FAR. Buffalo is a good school with an excellent reputation in Buffalo and Rochester, but it will not help you get a job in NYC unless you have your own connections or somehow work your own way in.

Can you see yourself in Western NY for a long time? If not, then do not go to UB now and just defer for the year and try to up your LSAT score to get better options for NYC placement. I honestly see deferring at UB and taking a year off in order to work (to live at home with your dad and save up some money), in addition to retaking, as your best bet. If you do the same or worse on the LSAT, you can still go to UB. If you do better, perhaps you get some money at UB or a door opens up to go to Fordham or Cardozo. These will give you drastically better job options in NYC. Plus, you can save up a little bit of money in the meantime.

If you can stick it out in Western NY for a while, then UB it is. Remember, you cannot beat the cost.

lawyerwannabe
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby lawyerwannabe » Tue May 03, 2011 12:24 am

I want to echo some things that have already been said in this thread as well as address some things that have not been tackled:

- I think you should retake (either get into a higher ranked school or get more scholarship money)
- UB in-state tuition is your best bet if you decide that you must go to law school this year (you do not want to go to any law school and be buried in debt when there is a chance that fruitful employment may not be attainable)
- UB does have a pretty good reputation in both Buffalo and Rochester (go to the Harris Beach firm website; there is a lot of UB representation)
- do not go to any law school looking to transfer (can't guarantee top 10%, etc.)
- graduating at the top of UB will get you a job; graduating at the top of Fordham may get you BigLaw (a.k.a. not similar; you cannot expect to have the same opportunities graduating from two schools ranked so far apart)
- if you're dad is going to get you a job, why does this thread exist?
- I will give you the classic TLS answer: "sports law is a mythical creature that may or may not exist"

Now, about UB (went to UB undergrad and live in Rochester):

- it is cold and the winters are brutal but it is the same in Rochester (possibly to a lesser degree)
- undergrads have classes in the law school building (I had calculus and ethics in O'Brien; this did not give me a very professional impression of the law school)
- you will have all your classes on North Campus so you will probably live in the on-campus apartments for graduate students (short commute, fairly nice)
- night life in Buffalo is what you make it; I had a blast in undergrad; the bars are open til 4 A.M. and there is always a football (either UB or the Bills) or hockey game that you can attend often at a discounted price

Hope this helps. PM if you like.

Good luck with your decision.

Aram24
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby Aram24 » Tue May 03, 2011 12:42 am

lawyerwannabe wrote:I want to echo some things that have already been said in this thread as well as address some things that have not been tackled:

- I think you should retake (either get into a higher ranked school or get more scholarship money)
- UB in-state tuition is your best bet if you decide that you must go to law school this year (you do not want to go to any law school and be buried in debt when there is a chance that fruitful employment may not be attainable)
- UB does have a pretty good reputation in both Buffalo and Rochester (go to the Harris Beach firm website; there is a lot of UB representation)
- do not go to any law school looking to transfer (can't guarantee top 10%, etc.)
- graduating at the top of UB will get you a job; graduating at the top of Fordham may get you BigLaw (a.k.a. not similar; you cannot expect to have the same opportunities graduating from two schools ranked so far apart)
- if you're dad is going to get you a job, why does this thread exist?
- I will give you the classic TLS answer: "sports law is a mythical creature that may or may not exist"

Now, about UB (went to UB undergrad and live in Rochester):

- it is cold and the winters are brutal but it is the same in Rochester (possibly to a lesser degree)
- undergrads have classes in the law school building (I had calculus and ethics in O'Brien; this did not give me a very professional impression of the law school)
- you will have all your classes on North Campus so you will probably live in the on-campus apartments for graduate students (short commute, fairly nice)
- night life in Buffalo is what you make it; I had a blast in undergrad; the bars are open til 4 A.M. and there is always a football (either UB or the Bills) or hockey game that you can attend often at a discounted price

Hope this helps. PM if you like.

Good luck with your decision.


Thanks for this, that was actually pretty nice of you to go so in-depth especially about the school and the area. It's not so much an issue of where I see myself working, because well I could work anywhere really so long as it's a big city. To be honest I like city living and all of my family is located here in NY. Also it's not that my dad is going to get me a job but I could help him with his private practice and maybe even start my own in conjunction with him. My point is he's built up a reputation and a network that I could take advantage of, so I wouldn't be out in the cold so to speak.

I understand that a "biglaw" job would only come with big name schools but I guess my point, or rather my question was, would a good or even great paying job only be available in our current economy through a school like the ones mentioned. Don't only a handful of top grads from even the big schools only get those jobs anyway?

Also to address the sports law thing, I'd probably agree with you. My real interest is Baseball and the contract law in Baseball. I'm a pretty big baseball nut and I've love to one day either work for maybe an agency or a firm representing a team. That would obviously be my dream job and make me a happy man, and my question in that regard was more or less would the network of a big name law school help in that sense since you'd need real world experience before even entering that field.

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taxnstuff
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby taxnstuff » Tue May 03, 2011 12:11 pm

Im curious if there are better odds of being an astronaut than being a sports agent.

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northwood
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby northwood » Tue May 03, 2011 12:25 pm

well there are a lot of space cadets out there......

scammedhard
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby scammedhard » Tue May 03, 2011 12:32 pm

northwood wrote:well there are a lot of space cadets out there......

well there are a lot of unemployed, underemployed lawyers out there......

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vamedic03
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Re: Albany V Pace V UB Buffalo various questions help!

Postby vamedic03 » Tue May 03, 2011 12:37 pm

I would strongly consider working for several years and then reevaluating law school. I say the following only out of kindness and truly without a desire to be snarky:

(1) Lots of people are graduating top schools without jobs and it gets progressively worse as one moves down in ranks.

(2) Law school is a very, very expensive proposition and the debt load is crushing. It's like buying a house but you never build equity. Getting student loan debt discharged through bankruptcy is incredibly difficult and near impossible.

(3) Unless you have a very specific, articulable desire to be a lawyer, it's probably not a good idea to go. OP has talked about starting a law firm or trying to work with his dad. Starting a law firm straight out of law school is exceptionally difficult and expensive. If practicing with your dad is an option, make sure that it's actually an option. Make sure that your dad can take you on and can pay you.

(4) There's never any harm in waiting. Plenty of people go to law school in their late 20s, 30s and 40s. There really is no rush. Work experience let's you (a) build up your savings, (b) provides valuable experiences that will help you be successful in lawschool, and (c) makes you a more attractive candidate when you hit the legal job market.

Don't make rash decisions that will impose significant burdens on you for the rest of your life.




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