Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

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burnside_1
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Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby burnside_1 » Sun May 01, 2011 1:01 pm

Hi,

I've lurked on the forums for a while and recently signed up. I live in Chicago and am not limited to staying in the region for school or work. I realize it that it makes sense to go to school in an area that you want to work. I am a bit torn at the moment b/c I was accepted at Colorado (no scholly) which is ranked in the top 50 and was also accepted to Valpo (4th tier) with a full ride. There are other schools I was considering as well but these two are leading the pack due to ranking for one and low cost for the other.

I know debt load is an important factor which is why Valpo makes sense. However, I think job prospects may be better at Colorado. I would like to do Corporate law or something business oriented. I was hoping to get some feedback and/or insight. Thanks :)

Accepted:
Colorado
Valpo
Marquette
Mich. State
Northern Il
John Marshall (chi)

Waitlisted:
Loyola Chi
Depaul
UNC
Cinci

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby JamMasterJ » Sun May 01, 2011 2:12 pm

Try to squeeze some money out of CU. If that doesn't work, defer and retake

burnside_1
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby burnside_1 » Tue May 03, 2011 7:44 pm

^^^ Thanks for your input. I am waiting to hear back from CU-Boulder regarding $$$. Unfortunately, waiting a year is not an option for me. Anyone else have any insight?

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northwood
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby northwood » Tue May 03, 2011 7:49 pm

if you can get into colorado- then you could have gotten into better schools. If you want to stay in the Mid west- defer from colorado and apply to schools in the mid west. Outside the top 14 law schools are regional- so go to the best school you can in the region you want to work. Id be wary about taking a scholarship with stipulations worse than top 50% ( i.e top 1/3 top 40 etc) I know you dont want to wait another year- but you need to decide where you want to live and work- and hit that region as best as you can.

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bk1
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby bk1 » Tue May 03, 2011 7:51 pm

Less than 65% of Colorado's 2009 graduates got full time legal jobs within 9 months. This doesn't even speak to whether or not they were making enough money to service 6 figure debt (which they probably weren't). Valparaiso is an even more awful school with atrocious employment prospects.

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If you had to pick between them, I'd take Valparaiso assuming you didn't have stipulations for keeping your scholarship. However, since both these options are bad, you should retake/reapply.

burnside_1 wrote:Unfortunately, waiting a year is not an option for me.


Is someone holding a gun to your head? Seriously, you have bad options. You should retake/reapply.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue May 03, 2011 8:40 pm

Colorado is a much better choice than Valpo if you want to live & work in Colorado. Colorado reported that 80% of the 2009 graduating class was employed full-time within 9 months of graduation. 2009 was a difficult year & Colorado was searching for a new law school dean. Not sure why there is a difference between law school transparency's numbers & those reported by Colorado Law.

I visited Colorado about a year ago. The 5 year old law school facility is gorgeous as is the entire campus & the town of Boulder. Forbes ranked Boulder, Colorado as "the smartest city" in the country as well as the "most educated" since about a third of Boulder's 100,000 residents have gradute degrees beyond a BA or BS. Seems as if nobody wants to leave Boulder. Denver is about 30 minutes away and is one of the best places to live in North America.

Assumption of six figure debt is, nevertheless, an uncomfortable situation. Colorado is not generous with scholarship awards because so many are fighting to get admitted to enjoy the lifestyle & numerous world renowned ski resorts such as Aspen & Vail among several others.
Amtrak service to San Francisco is considered by many as the most beautiful train route in the US. Easy Amtrak ride to Chicago as well & a great airport.

Applications to Colorado Law were up over 12% this year in a down year for most law schools including Duke & Yale. Colorado, for example, had about the same number of applications as did Yale, but Colorado has fewer seats available (180 versus Yale's 205).

Colorado's Federal clerkship Article III placement was 13th best in the country according to USNews recently released third annual judicial clerkship rankings.

Boulder is expensive. New home building is limited due to mandatory green space. Denver is affordable but yesterday was reported as the second or third fastest selling residential real estate market in the country.

burnside_1
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby burnside_1 » Tue May 03, 2011 11:36 pm

@Northwood -Thanks for the input. The scholarship stipulations are that i need to have >3.0 gpa each year. I lived in the NW after college for a couple of years so I don't mind going to school and/or living outside of the Midwest.

@bk1 -Thanks for the links, I did not realize the numbers were that bad. No one is "holding a gun to my head." However, I am at a point professionally where I make the move now or stay in a less then optimal work situation. Additionally, i have been out of school for some time and don't want to push off going to school for an entire year. However, I may need to give that some more thought.

@CanadianWolf- I appreciate your post... lots of good info.

I understand that the schools I have listed are no where near the t-14, nor was that a goal. I applied at the end of the cycle and am happy to have some options. I appreciate the input b/c I am apprehensive of potentially taking on $120k+ in debt. I know it's easy for anyone to make the case that they are different then the statistics and won't be part of the dismal numbers. For what it's worth, i've been out of school for 7 years now and feel that I can draw on this and hope that it sets me apart when seeking employment. I'm thinking out loud so I appreciate your patience/feedback.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed May 04, 2011 12:25 am

burnside_1 wrote:@Northwood -Thanks for the input. The scholarship stipulations are that i need to have >3.0 gpa each year. I lived in the NW after college for a couple of years so I don't mind going to school and/or living outside of the Midwest.

@bk1 -Thanks for the links, I did not realize the numbers were that bad. No one is "holding a gun to my head." However, I am at a point professionally where I make the move now or stay in a less then optimal work situation. Additionally, i have been out of school for some time and don't want to push off going to school for an entire year. However, I may need to give that some more thought.

@CanadianWolf- I appreciate your post... lots of good info.

I understand that the schools I have listed are no where near the t-14, nor was that a goal. I applied at the end of the cycle and am happy to have some options. I appreciate the input b/c I am apprehensive of potentially taking on $120k+ in debt. I know it's easy for anyone to make the case that they are different then the statistics and won't be part of the dismal numbers. For what it's worth, i've been out of school for 7 years now and feel that I can draw on this and hope that it sets me apart when seeking employment. I'm thinking out loud so I appreciate your patience/feedback.

this will be way higher if you pay sticker

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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed May 04, 2011 8:26 am

It is easy to get residency for in-state tuition for one's second & third years at Colorado Law.

P.S. lawschooltransparency's numbers for Colorado appear to be little more than unreliable guesswork since almost all law schools, including Colorado Law, have not furnished data to this group. According to lawschooltransparency's website only eleven (11) law schools have provided the requested data.

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bk1
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby bk1 » Wed May 04, 2011 12:43 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:P.S. lawschooltransparency's numbers for Colorado appear to be little more than unreliable guesswork since almost all law schools, including Colorado Law, have not furnished data to this group. According to lawschooltransparency's website only eleven (11) law schools have provided the requested data.


This is wrong. LST gets their data from USNWR who gets it from the schools. The schools get it from their graduates by sending out employment surveys. There are certain pitfalls where you can lose data, when someone doesn't respond, when someone doesn't provide salary data, etc, but LST, for the most part tries to handle this. In fact because of the way they do it, LST tends to be overoptimistic about the data. Here is the same data but handled slightly better (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681).

CanadianWolf
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed May 04, 2011 12:45 pm

Then lawschool transparency's web page is wrong because that is the source of my info. They noted that only eleven (11) law schools responded & they specifically included the entire email text of several law schools which refused to respond. Colorado, Northwestern & several others were among those law schools.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Wed May 04, 2011 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby bk1 » Wed May 04, 2011 12:47 pm

burnside_1 wrote:@bk1 -Thanks for the links, I did not realize the numbers were that bad. No one is "holding a gun to my head." However, I am at a point professionally where I make the move now or stay in a less then optimal work situation. Additionally, i have been out of school for some time and don't want to push off going to school for an entire year. However, I may need to give that some more thought.

@CanadianWolf- I appreciate your post... lots of good info.


You may be in a less than ideal work situation for a year, but why not retake/reapply?

And CanadianWolf's "80% full time employment" for Colorado was overly optimistic. Look at the data here for 2009: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681

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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed May 04, 2011 12:49 pm

Not overly optimistic as that is the rate reported to the ABA 7 reported by USNews. Lawschooltransparency is using their own guesstimates.

The chart referenced above shows 72% employed full time, 8% part-time & about 5% unknown. I don't know the source for the chart, however. But that equals at least 80% employed 9 months after graduation.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Wed May 04, 2011 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby bk1 » Wed May 04, 2011 12:51 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Then lawschool transparency's web page is wrong because that is the source of my info. They noted that only eleven (11) law schools responded & they specifically included the entire email text of several law schools which refused to respond. Colorado, Northwestern & several others were among those law schools.


I don't see where they say they get their information at all.

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bk1
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby bk1 » Wed May 04, 2011 12:53 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Not overly optimistic as that is the rate reported to the ABA 7 reported by USNews. Lawschooltransparency is using their own guesstimates.


I'm specifically referring to: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681

Which is taken from behind USNWR paywall where you need an online subscription to access the data. Unless aliarrow is compiling it incorrectly or lying, which I don't think either are the case, then your rate is overly optimistic because it probably does not account for those who did not respond to the survey or were unemployed.

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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed May 04, 2011 12:55 pm

It accounts for all of those concerns in the chart that you referenced. If you don't know lawschool transparency's sources, then why cite it as an authority when its website clearly states that Colorado was one of the 187 or so law schools that did not respond to their request for data ?

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mrtoren
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby mrtoren » Wed May 04, 2011 1:08 pm

Go to CU Boulder. There are only two law schools in the state, so competition will not be as high as in other areas. I think some posters here are always in NY/CA mode where there are countless other graduates vying for a limited number of jobs. CU tops the other law school, U Denver, so you're already in a position to succeed. Also, many, if not most, law school graduates do not end up getting scholarships. If a school grants scholarships to 30% of students, there is no way for the remaining 70% break into that. Retaking would be great if you have the time, but going to CU without money is not a terrible, life-ending path.

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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby tesoro » Wed May 04, 2011 1:09 pm

@Northwood -Thanks for the input. The scholarship stipulations are that i need to have >3.0 gpa each year.


Beware - Valpo curves to somewhere between a 2.5 and 2.7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... GPA_curves)

That means that a 3.0 is obtained by a very small percentage of the class. Probably less than 25% of the class. Odds are, you lose your scholarship after your first year and pay sticker.

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bk1
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby bk1 » Wed May 04, 2011 1:11 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:It accounts for all of those concerns in the chart that you referenced. If you don't know lawschool transparency's sources, then why cite it as an authority when its website clearly states that Colorado was one of the 187 or so law schools that did not respond to their request for data ?


Their source is USNWR.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed May 04, 2011 1:14 pm

USNews reported 80% of 2009 grads employed 9 months after graduation. Therefore it seems as if lawschooltransparency is misquoting their own source.

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Grizz
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby Grizz » Wed May 04, 2011 1:21 pm

Go to Valpo, eat Alpo. Go to Colorado, probably don't earn a lot of money to easily repay your debt-o.

Retake and reapply.

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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed May 04, 2011 1:24 pm

bk1 wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:P.S. lawschooltransparency's numbers for Colorado appear to be little more than unreliable guesswork since almost all law schools, including Colorado Law, have not furnished data to this group. According to lawschooltransparency's website only eleven (11) law schools have provided the requested data.


This is wrong. LST gets their data from USNWR who gets it from the schools. The schools get it from their graduates by sending out employment surveys. There are certain pitfalls where you can lose data, when someone doesn't respond, when someone doesn't provide salary data, etc, but LST, for the most part tries to handle this. In fact because of the way they do it, LST tends to be overoptimistic about the data. Here is the same data but handled slightly better (http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=150681).


Why is LST over optimistic?

CanadianWolf
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed May 04, 2011 1:30 pm

The assertion that lawschool transparency is overly optimistic borders on the absurd since LST was started based on sceptical beliefs about law schools' reporting of employment.

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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby ptblazer » Wed May 04, 2011 1:39 pm

tesoro wrote:
@Northwood -Thanks for the input. The scholarship stipulations are that i need to have >3.0 gpa each year.


Beware - Valpo curves to somewhere between a 2.5 and 2.7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... GPA_curves)

That means that a 3.0 is obtained by a very small percentage of the class. Probably less than 25% of the class. Odds are, you lose your scholarship after your first year and pay sticker.


This needs to weigh heavily into your decision.

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bk1
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Re: Colorado-Boulder (sticker) vs. Valparaiso (full ride)...

Postby bk1 » Wed May 04, 2011 1:39 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:Why is LST over optimistic?


CanadianWolf wrote:The assertion that lawschool transparency is overly optimistic borders on the absurd since LST was started based on sceptical beliefs about law schools' reporting of employment.


To respond to both of you:

It was from the conversation between aliarrow (who compiled the 2009 data in this forum) and jenesaislaw (LST founder).

Thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=153751&p=4338803#p4338803

Post and Response: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=153751#p4319982




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