.... Forum

[dakatz]

Lol, and someone else voted Penn. C'mon, we gotta hear your reasoning for this one.

[beachbum]

I voted for Penn because I like to cause mayhem.

[Stringer Bell]

I mean if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY think Houston or Dallas would be one of Dante's levels of hell I guess you could justify Penn, but that seems nuts to me.

Add me to the posters that wonder why you would be cool with San Antonio but not Dallas or Houston.

In Houston you do have to drive, but you can really shorten up the radius where you spend 95% of your time. If you live near the Washington or midtown area and work downtown you are only going to be driving a couple of miles to work and you will be close enough to bars or restaurants to walk or take cabs.

[patrickd139]

Voted for Texas.

Also, misleading title is misleading. Texas=T14, for better or worse. If you're going to troll, go with something a little more correct, like "UT for free or T13 to break the bank."

[DoubleChecks]

wait, UT is going to pay you 30,000 a year to go to law school there? take the money and run. you could do a lot worse than austin. $150,000 is a lot of money. a lot of people don't even make that much money in 10 years, much less pay it back. that is a gigantic safety net. penn is a fantastic school that i would love to attend, but it's not HYS and UT is a pretty fantastic school as well.

also, houston is a pretty awesome city once you figure it out. all the benefits of a big city with a much lower cost of living. living there would not be the end of the world. and dallas wouldn't be too bad if you end up being richer than god.

Not $30,000/year, $30,000 total. Thus, I'd still have to dip into personal savings, assuming I don't get a sweet 2L summer gig. I'd still graduate without debt.

Houston is awesome? It's a port city and much more liberal/more international than Dallas. It's also not far from the beach.

But what about the traffic, the sprawl, and the lack of public transportation? You have no idea how much I hate driving, particularly in the city. I'd love to live in either a walkable city like Dover, DE or Vancouver, BC or somewhere I could take the subway to work like Philly or NYC. Austin/San Antonio are not so bad, I think. Dallas/Houston/LA are intolerable.

I would happily attend UT if I were confident I could land a gig in either Austin or San Antonio.

you say you hate driving...have you driven in TX though? I will tell you right now, driving in places like LA or the NE != driving in Houston. lol not even close. i dont mind driving at all, but i would/do HATE driving in the NE. it is ridiculous. houston driving is such a breeze, it is refreshing. freeways to everywhere, with an exit every mile, accompanied by an underpass U-turn if you screw up. heck, sometimes if i know the general direction of something i can get there no tricks like up here, where i see a goddamn location and cant get to it because you actually have to make a left (when destination is to your right) to go over this hill that winds back around to take you to the entrance, which is hidden away behind these other buildings....sklefjklqw3jfiojjs

[BeachandRun23]

LOL i think Texas is a no brainer here. With the stipend money, Penn will essentially cost you $179,000 more. No one in there right mind could justify that. And UT could certainly get you back to NY, you just need to do well.

[thecynic69]

Hmm, not sure this is as clear cut as people are making it. I think the relevant questions is:
Which is worth more to you--150k, or not working in Texas and possibly having a better shot at big law? For me, I'd pay the 150 to escape Texas, absent any other consideration (although I'd probably be looking to go to a school between Penn and UT at which I maybe didn't have a full ride, but nonetheless didn't have to plump down 150 for). I know this is going to get me hated on by anyone who grew up in Texas, but I'd pretty much rather die than live there. It seems op' s east coast preference is not as...strong...as mine, but this is a key consideration. (note: I realize a UT degree does not 100% trap you in Texas)

OP also stated a preference for big law. I don't know what the big law situation is in Texas, and I don't know what a UT degree gets you, so I can't weigh in here. OP should def look into whether there is a bump in chances for big law out of Penn versus UT, and then decide whether it is worth paying 150 for that bump (in conjunction with escaping Texas).

HTH

[Sogui]

Hmm, not sure this is as clear cut as people are making it. I think the relevant questions is:
Which is worth more to you--150k, or not working in Texas and possibly having a better shot at big law? For me, I'd pay the 150 to escape Texas, absent any other consideration (although I'd probably be looking to go to a school between Penn and UT at which I maybe didn't have a full ride, but nonetheless didn't have to plump down 150 for). I know this is going to get me hated on by anyone who grew up in Texas, but I'd pretty much rather die than live there. It seems op' s east coast preference is not as...strong...as mine, but this is a key consideration. (note: I realize a UT degree does not 100% trap you in Texas)

OP also stated a preference for big law. I don't know what the big law situation is in Texas, and I don't know what a UT degree gets you, so I can't weigh in here. OP should def look into whether there is a bump in chances for big law out of Penn versus UT, and then decide whether it is worth paying 150 for that bump (in conjunction with escaping Texas).

HTH

He said his preference was midlaw

Not everyone wants to "escape" Texas. The state is bigger than most countries and like anything that big it has good parts and bad.

Even if his preference was biglaw, IMO he's got just as much of a shot at Texas biglaw with UT than trying to land east coast biglaw with Penn. With UT you are the flagship institution and #1 feeder to all the biglaw firms in Dallas, Houston, Austin, etc... walk in with a high enough GPA and you are golden. I'm not sure how Penn lands in biglaw but I doubt it has a similar claim to complete regional dominance over the same # of firms that Texas does.

Plus, never forget that Penn will be more competitive too. If you use LSAT as the indicator, Penn's median is close to UT's 25th percentile and Penn's 75th percentile is close to UT's median. Even as a very loose relationship, you will not do as well at Penn as you would at UT. So it isn't necessarily about "will I have a better chance at Penn" than "will median at Penn offer a $150,000+interest edge over top 25% at UT?"

Plus I've looked at Texas biglaw and I can promise you that they give a numbers bump to UT-Law. One of the top firms there will look for someone who is say "top 30%" at UT, maybe top 10% at other state institutions, almost no advantage for other T14, maybe around top 35%-40% for Columbia/Chicago/NYU, and then finally they'll take HYS absent any red flags/bad interviews. Do I think someone who is between 40-50th percentile is more qualified than a 25th percentile UT student, all else equal? Absolutely, but Texas biglaw just doesn't confer that much of a bonus to more "prestigious" schools barring HYS, though if they still did true grades I suspect below-median candidates from those schools wouldn't make the cut either.

[lakerfanimal]

People actually voted retake. Wow.

Have fun in Texas OP. And driving can suck, but try to find things you like about it

[thecynic69]

Hmm, not sure this is as clear cut as people are making it. I think the relevant questions is:
Which is worth more to you--150k, or not working in Texas and possibly having a better shot at big law? For me, I'd pay the 150 to escape Texas, absent any other consideration (although I'd probably be looking to go to a school between Penn and UT at which I maybe didn't have a full ride, but nonetheless didn't have to plump down 150 for). I know this is going to get me hated on by anyone who grew up in Texas, but I'd pretty much rather die than live there. It seems op' s east coast preference is not as...strong...as mine, but this is a key consideration. (note: I realize a UT degree does not 100% trap you in Texas)

OP also stated a preference for big law. I don't know what the big law situation is in Texas, and I don't know what a UT degree gets you, so I can't weigh in here. OP should def look into whether there is a bump in chances for big law out of Penn versus UT, and then decide whether it is worth paying 150 for that bump (in conjunction with escaping Texas).

HTH

He said his preference was midlaw

Not everyone wants to "escape" Texas. The state is bigger than most countries and like anything that big it has good parts and bad.

Even if his preference was biglaw, IMO he's got just as much of a shot at Texas biglaw with UT than trying to land east coast biglaw with Penn. With UT you are the flagship institution and #1 feeder to all the biglaw firms in Dallas, Houston, Austin, etc... walk in with a high enough GPA and you are golden. I'm not sure how Penn lands in biglaw but I doubt it has a similar claim to complete regional dominance over the same # of firms that Texas does.

Plus, never forget that Penn will be more competitive too. If you use LSAT as the indicator, Penn's median is close to UT's 25th percentile and Penn's 75th percentile is close to UT's median. Even as a very loose relationship, you will not do as well at Penn as you would at UT. So it isn't necessarily about "will I have a better chance at Penn" than "will median at Penn offer a $150,000+interest edge over top 25% at UT?"

Plus I've looked at Texas biglaw and I can promise you that they give a numbers bump to UT-Law. One of the top firms there will look for someone who is say "top 30%" at UT, maybe top 10% at other state institutions, almost no advantage for other T14, maybe around top 35%-40% for Columbia/Chicago/NYU, and then finally they'll take HYS absent any red flags/bad interviews. Do I think someone who is between 40-50th percentile is more qualified than a 25th percentile UT student, all else equal? Absolutely, but Texas biglaw just doesn't confer that much of a bonus to more "prestigious" schools barring HYS, though if they still did true grades I suspect below-median candidates from those schools wouldn't make the cut either.

Epic misread on my part. With midlaw as the preference, things are indeed a bit different (although I'm not sure how UT places in midlaw outside Texas?) Also, you may have a point re: texas being big, but in the end, it is a hot and by and large anti-ivory tower elitist place; it certainly isn't for me (which I do not mean to be understood as Texas is a stupid place). Could I maybe find a place in Texas where I'm not miserable? A little hunting around and investment in some portable fans and sure, but I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck looking for a job in Texas given my strong east coast preferences. And I maintain that I'd pay 150 (and a whole lot more) to avoid such a scenario (and I never suggested OP would also, but that this was part the relevant question).

[DoubleChecks]

Epic misread on my part. With midlaw as the preference, things are indeed a bit different (although I'm not sure how UT places in midlaw outside Texas?) Also, you may have a point re: texas being big, but in the end, it is a hot and by and large anti-ivory tower elitist place; it certainly isn't for me (which I do not mean to be understood as Texas is a stupid place). Could I maybe find a place in Texas where I'm not miserable? A little hunting around and investment in some portable fans and sure, but I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck looking for a job in Texas given my strong east coast preferences. And I maintain that I'd pay 150 (and a whole lot more) to avoid such a scenario (and I never suggested OP would also, but that this was part the relevant question).

im...willing to venture you've never lived in TX before, amirite? im wary of ppl who say they would rather die than live in TX. usually tells me they've never lived in TX. the major cities in TX really arent that diff from anywhere else; i can definitely see people who prefer one type of city to another (im not the NYC type, for example), but ive never felt like LA, Houston, Austin, Boston, etc. were all SO different that i would cringe to live in one place instead of the other. Prefer some over others? sure...

lol that and there is some variability between the major cities -- yes, TX is big enough where you could live your whole life in the state and never visit anything outside of Houston/SA/Austin/Dallas! (me for example lol).

[thecynic69]

Epic misread on my part. With midlaw as the preference, things are indeed a bit different (although I'm not sure how UT places in midlaw outside Texas?) Also, you may have a point re: texas being big, but in the end, it is a hot and by and large anti-ivory tower elitist place; it certainly isn't for me (which I do not mean to be understood as Texas is a stupid place). Could I maybe find a place in Texas where I'm not miserable? A little hunting around and investment in some portable fans and sure, but I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck looking for a job in Texas given my strong east coast preferences. And I maintain that I'd pay 150 (and a whole lot more) to avoid such a scenario (and I never suggested OP would also, but that this was part the relevant question).

im...willing to venture you've never lived in TX before, amirite? im wary of ppl who say they would rather die than live in TX. usually tells me they've never lived in TX. the major cities in TX really arent that diff from anywhere else; i can definitely see people who prefer one type of city to another (im not the NYC type, for example), but ive never felt like LA, Houston, Austin, Boston, etc. were all SO different that i would cringe to live in one place instead of the other. Prefer some over others? sure...

lol that and there is some variability between the major cities -- yes, TX is big enough where you could live your whole life in the state and never visit anything outside of Houston/SA/Austin/Dallas! (me for example lol).

Not to derail this thread too much, but nope, I've never lived in Texas. But I think my chief complaint is weather, and I don't need to live there to know that being in Texas is not the way to minimize days over 50 degrees. And I'm sure my views on Texas are the result of some misinformation. But everyone I meet from Texas hates it up here in the northeast. And everything they cite as reasons for why Texas is better (re: family, community, religion, country music, outdoor festivals, less judgmental, etc. etc.) either speaks to something I don't care about, or something I hate. Anything else you guys want to say on this subject, feel free to PM; let's return this thread to its original question.

Edited to change threat to thread =X.

[BarbellDreams]

FWIW I am an east coast city kid and I felt right at home when I visited Dallas. Houston was a bit off for me but Dallas was just like any other big city in the US.

[thecynic69]

FWIW I am an east coast city kid and I felt right at home when I visited Dallas. Houston was a bit off for me but Dallas was just like any other big city in the US.

I'm not a city kid. I'm an Ithaca kid. Find me an Ithaca in Texas and I'll consider it. But if it ain't snowing in May, I don't want to live there.

[DoubleChecks]

Epic misread on my part. With midlaw as the preference, things are indeed a bit different (although I'm not sure how UT places in midlaw outside Texas?) Also, you may have a point re: texas being big, but in the end, it is a hot and by and large anti-ivory tower elitist place; it certainly isn't for me (which I do not mean to be understood as Texas is a stupid place). Could I maybe find a place in Texas where I'm not miserable? A little hunting around and investment in some portable fans and sure, but I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck looking for a job in Texas given my strong east coast preferences. And I maintain that I'd pay 150 (and a whole lot more) to avoid such a scenario (and I never suggested OP would also, but that this was part the relevant question).

im...willing to venture you've never lived in TX before, amirite? im wary of ppl who say they would rather die than live in TX. usually tells me they've never lived in TX. the major cities in TX really arent that diff from anywhere else; i can definitely see people who prefer one type of city to another (im not the NYC type, for example), but ive never felt like LA, Houston, Austin, Boston, etc. were all SO different that i would cringe to live in one place instead of the other. Prefer some over others? sure...

lol that and there is some variability between the major cities -- yes, TX is big enough where you could live your whole life in the state and never visit anything outside of Houston/SA/Austin/Dallas! (me for example lol).

Not to derail this thread too much, but nope, I've never lived in Texas. But I think my chief complaint is weather, and I don't need to live there to know that being in Texas is not the way to minimize days over 50 degrees. And I'm sure my views on Texas are the result of some misinformation. But everyone I meet from Texas hates it up here in the northeast. And everything they cite as reasons for why Texas is better (re: family, community, religion, country music, outdoor festivals, less judgmental, etc. etc.) either speaks to something I don't care about, or something I hate. Anything else you guys want to say on this subject, feel free to PM; let's return this thread to its original question.

Edited to change threat to thread =X.

You know, shockingly enough, this actually could be relevant for OP lol. He seems to be unsure about location, NE vs. TX, so it might be nice to hear some input. tbf, TX is hella hot. That cannot be ignored, but dude the NE is HELLA COLD. What the main difference is, you drive everywhere in TX haha. It is hot for that 30 sec walk to your car, and that 1 min walk from the covered parking lot to your A/C'd office building. At least in Houston, everyone drives everywhere, and everywhere has A/C. But if you're going to be doing a lot of outdoor stuff in the summer, o.O.

And I don't hate the NE. But I'm really not a picky guy on where I live, I just prefer TX, and I'm not religious, or into country music and outdoor festivals Obviously TX isn't for everyone, and plenty of people won't like it, esp. if they didnt grow up there (true for a lot of places/things), but just saying, I rarely hear ppl say they would rather die than live in the NE, yet ppl say that about TX (all, up to date, have not lived in TX lol)...which is odd when the NE can be just as bad for different reasons. I guess my point is, it really is not as bad as non-Texans think. It prob isnt as great as Texans make it out to be either, but hey, you might even like it

[DoubleChecks]

FWIW I am an east coast city kid and I felt right at home when I visited Dallas. Houston was a bit off for me but Dallas was just like any other big city in the US.

I'm not a city kid. I'm an Ithaca kid. Find me an Ithaca in Texas and I'll consider it. But if it ain't snowing in May, I don't want to live there.

If by Ithaca you mean college-town feel, Austin I guess. If by Ithaca you mean snowing in May, then wow you really love the cold huh? haha

[thecynic69]

FWIW I am an east coast city kid and I felt right at home when I visited Dallas. Houston was a bit off for me but Dallas was just like any other big city in the US.

I'm not a city kid. I'm an Ithaca kid. Find me an Ithaca in Texas and I'll consider it. But if it ain't snowing in May, I don't want to live there.

If by Ithaca you mean college-town feel, Austin I guess. If by Ithaca you mean snowing in May, then wow you really love the cold huh? haha

Oh, not the ctown feel. I almost edited to clarify. Also not for the hippy feel. I mean the snow in May. I would rather it be -10 than 70, and I'd pretty much rather be dead than be outside in 90 degree weather. Hence, I'd rather die than live in Texas.

ETA: If they ever establish big law in Alaska, I might be down...otherwise, here's to academia in a small, cold town.

[Grizz]

Plus, never forget that Penn will be more competitive too. If you use LSAT as the indicator, Penn's median is close to UT's 25th percentile and Penn's 75th percentile is close to UT's median. Even as a very loose relationship, you will not do as well at Penn as you would at UT. So it isn't necessarily about "will I have a better chance at Penn" than "will median at Penn offer a $150,000+interest edge over top 25% at UT?"

There have been numerous threads about why this theory and the assumptions on which it rests is retarded.

[rose711]

If you don't go to UT (a T14) for free you will be making a huge mistake you will regret. Law school is 3 years and you have mobility from UT. Paying back debt for years, the stress of having to find a job to pay for it in a competitive market and possibly taking a job solely because of what it pays if you don't have to,--- just to go to a marginally better school--- is crazy.

Penn is not Yale.

[Sogui]

Plus, never forget that Penn will be more competitive too. If you use LSAT as the indicator, Penn's median is close to UT's 25th percentile and Penn's 75th percentile is close to UT's median. Even as a very loose relationship, you will not do as well at Penn as you would at UT. So it isn't necessarily about "will I have a better chance at Penn" than "will median at Penn offer a $150,000+interest edge over top 25% at UT?"

There have been numerous threads about why this theory and the assumptions on which it rests is retarded.

I might have been a little overly broad in my conclusion, but given that GPA+LSAT is the most determinative of your law school grades and LSAT is the single greatest factor, I'm curious where I went "retarded". If you held everything else equal. Of course there are tons of variables, but I was just illustrating a point that is fundamentally true: Going to a higher ranked school that has materially stronger numbers for its student body is almost inevitably going to result in a lower class rank than you would have obtained otherwise.

You might argue I overstated the effect that 2 points on an LSAT median might have, but if you really could control for all other factors and assuming that individual deviations between one's LSAT score and one's "actual ability" would cancel out when comparing 2 schools, I don't see why it can't work as an argument in theory. It of course assumes that both schools grade similarly as well, and that UT or Penn don't differ in grading such that one facors "hard work" (more influenced by GPA) over "critical thinking" (more influenced by LSAT) or vice-versa.

[bartleby]

UT all day. 150k + interest is just too much $$$ unless you have major family money.

[Grizz]

Plus, never forget that Penn will be more competitive too. If you use LSAT as the indicator, Penn's median is close to UT's 25th percentile and Penn's 75th percentile is close to UT's median. Even as a very loose relationship, you will not do as well at Penn as you would at UT. So it isn't necessarily about "will I have a better chance at Penn" than "will median at Penn offer a $150,000+interest edge over top 25% at UT?"

There have been numerous threads about why this theory and the assumptions on which it rests is retarded.

I might have been a little overly broad in my conclusion, but given that GPA+LSAT is the most determinative of your law school grades and LSAT is the single greatest factor, I'm curious where I went "retarded". If you held everything else equal. Of course there are tons of variables, but I was just illustrating a point that is fundamentally true: Going to a higher ranked school that has materially stronger numbers for its student body is almost inevitably going to result in a lower class rank than you would have obtained otherwise.

You might argue I overstated the effect that 2 points on an LSAT median might have, but if you really could control for all other factors and assuming that individual deviations between one's LSAT score and one's "actual ability" would cancel out when comparing 2 schools, I don't see why it can't work as an argument in theory. It of course assumes that both schools grade similarly as well, and that UT or Penn don't differ in grading such that one facors "hard work" (more influenced by GPA) over "critical thinking" (more influenced by LSAT) or vice-versa.

You can't control for other factors, and everything else is not equal, which I think you sorta acknowledge at the end, which is the whole point.

That said, UT.

[jdhonest]

IMO - If you disdain traffic and really enjoy public transportation, Austin is not the city for you. The bus system is raved about, mainly because there are a lot of buses. However, the routes are not very efficient. The cab system is an absolute joke (FWIW I've lived in about 5 other metropolitan areas), and if you ever find yourself on I35 in Austin because you had to drive, you will be about as angry as you ever have been while driving a car. All in all, Houston has the best traffic of the 3 major cities.

That said, some 1Ls, gets by fine without a car in Austin, but they may occasionally find themselves missing out on some of the cool ATX opportunities.
s
To me, this isn't too dispositive of the choice you have to make, but I think it's better to know now the truth about ATX now rather than later.

[esq]

Hook'em Horns!

[DoubleChecks]

IMO - If you disdain traffic and really enjoy public transportation, Austin is not the city for you. The bus system is raved about, mainly because there are a lot of buses. However, the routes are not very efficient. The cab system is an absolute joke (FWIW I've lived in about 5 other metropolitan areas), and if you ever find yourself on I35 in Austin because you had to drive, you will be about as angry as you ever have been while driving a car. All in all, Houston has the best traffic of the 3 major cities.

That said, some 1Ls, gets by fine without a car in Austin, but they may occasionally find themselves missing out on some of the cool ATX opportunities.
s
To me, this isn't too dispositive of the choice you have to make, but I think it's better to know now the truth about ATX now rather than later.

agreed that a choice for TX really is a companion choice to drive, for the most part. driving in austin isnt as pleasant as driving in houston, but it beats the heck out of driving in boston lol.