Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

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BES621
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Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby BES621 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:50 pm

I'm ridiculously torn. I'm going back and forth. I got an extension for accepting michigan's offer till monday, and i tentatively committed at Berkeley a few weeks ago to cover my bases. I went to both ASW's (on back-to-back weekends) and I just cant make up my mind. I'm from NY, born and raised, and am currently finishing up at Penn undergrad, but i decided not to stay for law school after getting in. My top two choices were NYU and Stanford, but i was waitlisted at both, so I've narrowed my options down to these two. ANY advice, recommendations, or help are extremely welcome!

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby JamMasterJ » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:24 pm

What are your career goals and COA's?

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Knock
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby Knock » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:25 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:What are your career goals and COA's?


I like how you're thinking, JamMasterJ. See the first thread he posted: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=154470.

BES621
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby BES621 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm

haha, yea... about that. sorry for posting this on two different threads. I'm just pressed for time and trying to get as much info/input as possible. Figured some people might only look at one of the threads...

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Lawlcat
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby Lawlcat » Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:09 pm

BES621 wrote:haha, yea... about that. sorry for posting this on two different threads. I'm just pressed for time and trying to get as much info/input as possible. Figured some people might only look at one of the threads...


Other thread:

Michigan
Michigan Michigan Michigan
Michigan Michigan
Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan
Boalt LOL
Michigan Michigan

I contribute:
Michigan

$75K might seem unreal – as tuition generally does – but those are real dollars. Especially if you manage to get BigLaw ... imagine how nice it'd be to get a $75K bonus your first year. (If you do PI, arguably less important, because you'll LRAP it anyway.)

Seriously. That's like a free year of BigLaw salary, without having to work for it. (160K - COA - taxes - loan interest)


All that said: I wonder if you're so torn because you have a very strong personal reason ("fit", "feel", whatever) leading you toward Boalt. I would encourage you to consider that. If you really do feel like you want Boalt, go there instead. I think that can be worth 75K and whatever marginal boost you get for BigLaw/clerkships at Michigan.

Perhaps we should ask: what IS it about Boalt that makes this a hard decision? (Not a rhetorical question.)

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:24 pm

After looking at your other thread (COA, goals), this really isn't that close. UM

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:10 pm

Lawlcat wrote:Perhaps we should ask: what IS it about Boalt that makes this a hard decision? (Not a rhetorical question.)

This.

Also, I agree about LOL'ing at the other people suggesting Berkeley in that thread when OP seems to like each school equally and where Berkeley is almost $75k more expensive. OP, those Berkeley students are shamelessly trolling for their school, and couldn't care less about giving worthwhile advice for you and your financial situation - I'm actually inclined to think they were joking with those comments. I'd like to believe that Michigan students would never tell you that their school is worth 70k more than a peer school where you like both equally. Hell, even if you loved Michigan and hated Berkeley, I'd still tell you to go to Berkeley over Michigan if it were 70k cheaper. If Michigan isn't the right choice for you because of the above question, then go to Berkeley. But certainly don't do it because Boalt trolls are telling you you'll have more fun there, and don't do it without realizing how long it takes down to pay just 70k in debt, even while working in biglaw.

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Rock-N-Roll
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:08 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:Also, I agree about LOL'ing at the other people suggesting Berkeley in that thread when OP seems to like each school equally and where Berkeley is almost $75k more expensive. OP, those Berkeley students are shamelessly trolling for their school, and couldn't care less about giving worthwhile advice for you and your financial situation - I'm actually inclined to think they were joking with those comments. I'd like to believe that Michigan students would never tell you that their school is worth 70k more than a peer school where you like both equally. Hell, even if you loved Michigan and hated Berkeley, I'd still tell you to go to Berkeley over Michigan if it were 70k cheaper. If Michigan isn't the right choice for you because of the above question, then go to Berkeley. But certainly don't do it because Boalt trolls are telling you you'll have more fun there, and don't do it without realizing how long it takes down to pay just 70k in debt, even while working in biglaw.


FWIW. I don't know the hard-and-fast definition of trolling, but to me trolling implies posting something to get a rise out of people, especially when the information posted is unrealistic, untrue, and/or boastful.

I don't think that is the case here with the Berkeley students' posts at all. I think they just genuinely really like their school. Keep in mind also that their posts are in the context of the OP stating that money is not a motivator for him/her (stated in his/her original thread).

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:49 pm

Rock-N-Roll wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:Also, I agree about LOL'ing at the other people suggesting Berkeley in that thread when OP seems to like each school equally and where Berkeley is almost $75k more expensive. OP, those Berkeley students are shamelessly trolling for their school, and couldn't care less about giving worthwhile advice for you and your financial situation - I'm actually inclined to think they were joking with those comments. I'd like to believe that Michigan students would never tell you that their school is worth 70k more than a peer school where you like both equally. Hell, even if you loved Michigan and hated Berkeley, I'd still tell you to go to Berkeley over Michigan if it were 70k cheaper. If Michigan isn't the right choice for you because of the above question, then go to Berkeley. But certainly don't do it because Boalt trolls are telling you you'll have more fun there, and don't do it without realizing how long it takes down to pay just 70k in debt, even while working in biglaw.


FWIW. I don't know the hard-and-fast definition of trolling, but to me trolling implies posting something to get a rise out of people, especially when the information posted is unrealistic, untrue, and/or boastful.

I don't think that is the case here with the Berkeley students' posts at all. I think they just genuinely really like their school. Keep in mind also that their posts are in the context of the OP stating that money is not a motivator for him/her (stated in his/her original thread).

Yeah, that may be have been a little heavy-handed of me. As it stands, I still would never find myself telling something to choose Michigan over Berkeley if Berkeley were 70k+ cheaper and they liked both equally, even if the prospective didn't fully grasp how real 220k+ of debt actually becomes once he/she signs those promissory notes. And it OP wants biglaw/entertainment/sports instead of PI where an LRAP is a consideration, that debt is pretty hard to ignore. Without a strong preference for Berkeley and/or a loathing of Michigan, I'd probably still put the "Berkeley at $72k more" advice in the shameless Boalt-trolling category.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:50 pm

OP, did you try to get Berkeley to match the M offer?

BES621
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby BES621 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:57 pm

Well first, thanks to everyone for replying.

Second- as far as the "it factor" drawing me to Berkeley, i think i can boil it down to its amazing location in the bay area (weather included) as well as its IP program and Entertainment/sports law journal. On the flipside, the Michigan law quad (and living situation in the lawyers club) is a huge draw, its closer to NY, and for some reason i feel like the people there are a little more similar in personality to myself. Both ASW's were amazing, both towns are fun, facilities are top notch, and both groups of students showed me that they can have a good time despite being law students. Additionally, both offer many of the same entertainment/sports courses- berkeley has more IP stuff, Michigan is bringing in a new professor to offer courses on Music Law, etc.

I know people keep talking about money/cost/debt/etc, but for one reason or another (and i have several) its just not gonna make or break my decision. Assume for a second (and i swear this is COMPLETELY hypothetical and untrue, but i'm saying this for the sake of perspective) that i'm a trust fund baby with no concept of money and just want to go where i will get the best experience. Thoughts?

rose711
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby rose711 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:02 pm

Even trust fund babies care about $70,000 - it is a lot of money.

If everything else is even, you should go to Michigan.

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Rurik
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby Rurik » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:04 pm

Michigan is ranked 7th and Berkeley is down at 9th. Wouldn't be surprised to see Berk drop out of the T10 next year and maybe Michigan get up there and tie with NYU at 6th, who seems to be slipping. Good luck on your decision!

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AreJay711
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby AreJay711 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:08 pm

Here is one person's opinion making the same decison. It breaks down the differences pretty well in objective and subjective measures.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=153905

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worldtraveler
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:55 pm

BES621 wrote:Well first, thanks to everyone for replying.

Second- as far as the "it factor" drawing me to Berkeley, i think i can boil it down to its amazing location in the bay area (weather included) as well as its IP program and Entertainment/sports law journal. On the flipside, the Michigan law quad (and living situation in the lawyers club) is a huge draw, its closer to NY, and for some reason i feel like the people there are a little more similar in personality to myself. Both ASW's were amazing, both towns are fun, facilities are top notch, and both groups of students showed me that they can have a good time despite being law students. Additionally, both offer many of the same entertainment/sports courses- berkeley has more IP stuff, Michigan is bringing in a new professor to offer courses on Music Law, etc.

I know people keep talking about money/cost/debt/etc, but for one reason or another (and i have several) its just not gonna make or break my decision. Assume for a second (and i swear this is COMPLETELY hypothetical and untrue, but i'm saying this for the sake of perspective) that i'm a trust fund baby with no concept of money and just want to go where i will get the best experience. Thoughts?


I chose between Michigan and Berkeley when I was picking schools. I don't think there is a wrong choice, and you will probably be happy at either.
What is it that appeals to you about the Lawyers Club? You can also live across the street at Berkeley, in ihouse. It's really the same set up only instead of being only for law students it's for the whole university, which is actually nice because then you meet non-law students as well. As far as students being like yourself, I think you'll find people you mesh with at either school.

You have a roughly equal shot at NY big law from either school. I know someone will come in here and debate that, but it's true. They're both good schools, and choosing one because one is #7 and one is #9 this year is just plain stupid. The rankings change a little bit every year, and no one cares except obsessive OLs.

If I were you, I would choose Michigan for the money, but if you really think it doesn't matter to you, then go with the school you like best.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:10 pm

Rurik wrote:Michigan is ranked 7th and Berkeley is down at 9th. Wouldn't be surprised to see Berk drop out of the T10 next year and maybe Michigan get up there and tie with NYU at 6th, who seems to be slipping. Good luck on your decision!

this.
is.
dumb.

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Lawlcat
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby Lawlcat » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:08 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:
Rurik wrote:Michigan is ranked 7th and Berkeley is down at 9th. Wouldn't be surprised to see Berk drop out of the T10 next year and maybe Michigan get up there and tie with NYU at 6th, who seems to be slipping. Good luck on your decision!

this.
is.
dumb.


Yes, it is.


Okay. Leaving money out of the picture (I really think this is a bad idea – even though it seems like play money now, it's really, really not) ... what do we have?

Feel: you seemed to be leaning toward Michigan on this.
Programs: IP (Berkeley), Music Law (???) (Mich)

I feel like Michigan has some good IP people (e.g. Eisenberg, Litman), but I could believe Berkeley being a bit stronger.

I like Michigan, but if you want to leave money out of the picture, I guess I might suggest Berkeley? The fact that you seem to be treating this as a hard decision notwithstanding the money suggests to me that maybe you're really in love with Berkeley and you're not nearly so ambivalent after all.

Possible counterpoint: it could be that you're putting a lot of emphasis on relative program strength, and you "actually" want to go to Michigan but are having a hard time justifying it because of Berkeley's IP programs. I'm not sure either school is so much better than the others in terms of "program strength" that it should make up your mind. (e.g. Michigan has, I hear, a really good IP journal - MTTLR. Another thing: Berkeley pushes GPA, Mich pushes LSAT. GPA hurts IP-ish/hard science applicants. Might expect a stronger IP contingent at Michigan.)

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Rurik
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby Rurik » Sun May 01, 2011 7:58 am

JamMasterJ wrote:
Rurik wrote:Michigan is ranked 7th and Berkeley is down at 9th. Wouldn't be surprised to see Berk drop out of the T10 next year and maybe Michigan get up there and tie with NYU at 6th, who seems to be slipping. Good luck on your decision!

this.
is.
dumb.


Also was a joke. Everybody knows that it's going to take Berkeley at least two years to drop out of the T10.

BES621
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby BES621 » Sun May 01, 2011 12:17 pm

Well, thank you for all of your input everyone. As of 530 AM this morning (totally couldn't sleep), and despite tons of signs pointing in the other direction, I will be joining the Michigan Law Class of 2014. Go blue!

dooood
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Re: Michigan vs. Berkeley HELP!!!!!

Postby dooood » Mon May 02, 2011 5:07 pm

BES621 wrote:Well, thank you for all of your input everyone. As of 530 AM this morning (totally couldn't sleep), and despite tons of signs pointing in the other direction, I will be joining the Michigan Law Class of 2014. Go blue!

Congrats dude/dudette. I think you made the right call




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