Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

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redfern86
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Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby redfern86 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:01 am

Most posters on the forums seem incredibly blessed with excellent LSAT scores and wonderful offers from T14 schools. The generic response to questions about schools outside the T14 are usually met with "retake" - as if the OP simply didn't try the first time. Is "retake" really the automatic answer if you didn't get into a T14?

For example, I'm going to GW with a modest (12k) scholarship (163/3.9). When I graduate, I'll be carrying nearly $200k in debt. Which sucks. But if I want to be an attorney... and that's the best school I can get into... why shouldn't I go there? Why shouldn't I invest in my future and myself? Why should I take a year off to *try* to get a higher score, even though I tried damn hard the first time?

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bport hopeful
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby bport hopeful » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:03 am

Its not as bad as people on here make it seem, but its not much better. In your case, with a 3.9, the honest answer is retake.

scammedhard
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby scammedhard » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:06 am

163... dude, you gotta RETAKE!

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Grizz
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby Grizz » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:09 am

If you've got $200k burning a hole in your pocket, ED to UVA.

amonynous_ivdinidual
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby amonynous_ivdinidual » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:10 am

why? because you're not the only person out there who wants to be a lawyer. i'm not a full-fledged doom and gloomer, but i don't think you're appreciating the gravity of the situation. here are three things to think about.

1. imagining your 200k as an "investment" isn't the proper way to think about it. you're playing roulette and putting 200k on black. just appreciate that that's what's happening. and if you say that's not true because you control your destiny...
2. you don't. good grades go a long way toward gainful employment, but even then nothing is guaranteed. you still have to interview well. you still should get into an organization like journal or moot court.
3. if what you really want to do is "be a lawyer," consider going to a less well-respected law school in a preferred region. your chances at real legal employment won't drop that much, though your earning potential may suffer.

i'm not telling you to re-take, and i'm not telling you gw is a bad decision for you. i'm only speaking in generalities. but you should know there will be 200 people in your class who want it just as bad as you, and hard work in no way correlates to good grades. i got great grades 1L and i hardly studied at all until the week before exams. like i said, it's a roulette wheel.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby DoubleChecks » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:11 am

redfern86 wrote:Most posters on the forums seem incredibly blessed with excellent LSAT scores and wonderful offers from T14 schools. The generic response to questions about schools outside the T14 are usually met with "retake" - as if the OP simply didn't try the first time. Is "retake" really the automatic answer if you didn't get into a T14?

For example, I'm going to GW with a modest (12k) scholarship (163/3.9). When I graduate, I'll be carrying nearly $200k in debt. Which sucks. But if I want to be an attorney... and that's the best school I can get into... why shouldn't I go there? Why shouldn't I invest in my future and myself? Why should I take a year off to *try* to get a higher score, even though I tried damn hard the first time?


$200k in debt? how will you pay that off? have you looked at the realistic chances of you getting a job that will allow you to pay down that debt? do you have a backup payment plan? what are your other options? where do you want to work (hopefully in that area)? these are just SOME of the questions you should be asking yourself. i mean, not thinking ahead is a real problem. if you've done your due diligence (read: extensive research) and planned for all the eventualities to a reasonable extent...and yet still choose to do this for whatever reason (ex: want to be an attorney even if swimming in debt)...then more power to you.

it's just...TLS is the warning label. and it's more true than untrue. although most ppl in life rarely think through major decisions and end up screwing themselves over (i.e. buying a house, raising a kid :P, etc.), doesn't mean that should excuse this.

with a 3.9 and only 1 LSAT under your belt, imo you're doing a disservice to yourself by not retaking. the LSAT is learnable. put more time into it...whatever time you put into it will translate either into a better school (better job opportunities/money in the future) or into more $$$ money (so saving money now). you'd prob get paid more per hour studying the LSAT than your future job :P ...assuming you get a higher score.

if you want to invest in yourself, why not set yourself up to succeed, rather than fail?

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Na_Swatch
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby Na_Swatch » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:12 am

I don't really look at it as a T14 v other school proposition for the retake... It's more of the fact that, in a cost/benefit analysis a retake of the LSAT could be huge gains for minimal (relatively) effort.

For example... take your case: With a 3.9, 163 you'd have 200K debt coming out of GW. Now say you retook and put in about 20 hours a week studying for say 3~4 months and got like a 167~170 (hopefully). That could, disregarding T14 admissions, get you a full scholarship to GW which is a difference of 150K.

Bottom Line: About 3 months of part time work for a good shot at earning 150K... and thats why I often tell people to retake if they have any chance to improve.

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tyro
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby tyro » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:17 am

redfern86 wrote:Why shouldn't I invest in my future and myself with GW?


Because your "investment" is nothing more than a gamble which could potentially destroy your life and future.

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98234872348
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby 98234872348 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:19 am

.
Last edited by 98234872348 on Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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handlesthetruth
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby handlesthetruth » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:36 am

Na_Swatch wrote:I don't really look at it as a T14 v other school proposition for the retake... It's more of the fact that, in a cost/benefit analysis a retake of the LSAT could be huge gains for minimal (relatively) effort.

For example... take your case: With a 3.9, 163 you'd have 200K debt coming out of GW. Now say you retook and put in about 20 hours a week studying for say 3~4 months and got like a 167~170 (hopefully). That could, disregarding T14 admissions, get you a full scholarship to GW which is a difference of 150K.

Bottom Line: About 3 months of part time work for a good shot at earning 150K... and thats why I often tell people to retake if they have any chance to improve.


Best way to look at it.

This.

stylishlaw
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby stylishlaw » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:23 am

Whether to retake or not is a function of your GPA and what you would do in your extra year.

Generally, if you have a high GPA (3.8+), retaking is a better proposition. Retaking and scoring well on the retake opens up a slew of schools where GPA is important. HYSCCN + Berkeley, etc. The lower your GPA is, the higher jumps in LSAT score you will need to open up those same schools. Having a GPA <3.5 for example, you would have to score 175+ in order to get a school in the CCN range. HYS + B are automatically out.

Also if you are not doing anything productive in your extra year then you probably should just go to school.

You have a great GPA so a retake here could open up money and admissions to better schools. I would deposit at GW and take the June lsat and decide from there.

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DeeCee
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby DeeCee » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:37 am

Alright OP,

I NEVER say retake, just because I don't want to be douchey. However, in this case I think you have to retake.

Personal anecdote here, but TLS will get over it--
The reason why I say this is because I talked to a GW admissions person at one of those LSAC conferences. I had an extreme circumstance that did not allow me to do as well on the LSAT as I was PT-ing. The admissions officer point-blank told me that I should retake this cycle and apply, but have them hold my app until the better score came in. She then told me in her words, " you know, we give out full rides to people with your stats (I have a 4.0 in UG and grad school), usually with a 167 LSAT."

Think about this. A 167 or similar score could give you much better scholarship chances, saving you thousands a year. Even if it's not a full ride it's worth a try--that's only a 4-5 point difference for you.

She also told me if I didn't retake and I didn't get in this cycle that we could definitely talk about me transferring in the next year. Nice try on her part, but I'd never pay for GW at sticker.

Anyway, ouch for me, but there's a bit of reality in her statements.

trudat15
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby trudat15 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:54 am

OP - I tried damn hard my first time around, and tried damn hard when I retook. Scored 10 pt difference, and am now not limited to TTTs.
With a 3.9, 163, you have to retake. THe year off could mean the difference between 200k in debt, and 50k in debt from a "better" school.

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yuzu
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby yuzu » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:16 am

redfern86 wrote:Why should I take a year off to *try* to get a higher score, even though I tried damn hard the first time?


The reason people are so excited about telling you to retake is that almost everyone is able to improve their score substantially with study. If you've really studied for months and you don't think you can possibly improve, perhaps there is no point. But most people who come here haven't tried as hard as they could, and usually the payoff for trying harder is good. (I spent a month doing nothing but practice LSATs. It got me 9 points over my previous score.)

As others have pointed out, many people go to GW and don't get well-paying jobs. If you work really hard in law school you probably won't be one of them, but there are no guarantees. If you are OK with the risk, I don't think going is necessarily the wrong decision. (My father is a GW law alum and has enjoyed his career immensely; there are both horror stories of unemployment and success stories of happy lawyers for almost any law school.) Personally, I'd love to have someone like Judge Rader (one of my favorite judges...) as a professor, or to have the ability to talk in person with Congressional staff about pending legislation.

Might I offer a compromise? You don't have to take a year off to get a higher score. Put down a GW deposit if you think this is the right path for you. Register for the June LSAT and spend a month practicing. In July you'll get your score. If you don't improve, your loss is one month and $300, and you continue at GW. If you do improve substantially, you can start to consider backing out for this cycle and reapplying, or maybe even negotiating with GW for more money this year.

As others have mentioned, a few LSAT points could get you a full ride at GW. Even if you don't study more but simply have a good day on the LSAT in June, it could really pay off. Think of it as a lottery ticket that actually has odds in your favor...

trudat15
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby trudat15 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:12 pm

yuzu wrote:
redfern86 wrote:Why should I take a year off to *try* to get a higher score, even though I tried damn hard the first time?


The reason people are so excited about telling you to retake is that almost everyone is able to improve their score substantially with study. If you've really studied for months and you don't think you can possibly improve, perhaps there is no point. But most people who come here haven't tried as hard as they could, and usually the payoff for trying harder is good. (I spent a month doing nothing but practice LSATs. It got me 9 points over my previous score.)

As others have pointed out, many people go to GW and don't get well-paying jobs. If you work really hard in law school you probably won't be one of them, but there are no guarantees. If you are OK with the risk, I don't think going is necessarily the wrong decision. (My father is a GW law alum and has enjoyed his career immensely; there are both horror stories of unemployment and success stories of happy lawyers for almost any law school.) Personally, I'd love to have someone like Judge Rader (one of my favorite judges...) as a professor, or to have the ability to talk in person with Congressional staff about pending legislation.

Might I offer a compromise? You don't have to take a year off to get a higher score. Put down a GW deposit if you think this is the right path for you. Register for the June LSAT and spend a month practicing. In July you'll get your score. If you don't improve, your loss is one month and $300, and you continue at GW. If you do improve substantially, you can start to consider backing out for this cycle and reapplying, or maybe even negotiating with GW for more money this year.

As others have mentioned, a few LSAT points could get you a full ride at GW. Even if you don't study more but simply have a good day on the LSAT in June, it could really pay off. Think of it as a lottery ticket that actually has odds in your favor...


If OP hasnt already been studying , a month might not be enough.

acrossthelake
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby acrossthelake » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:23 pm

Because 200K is a lot of debt.

If you done the math on how much money you'll have to pay each month one you graduate to stay afloat and pay it off, and then how much money you'll have to make before-taxes, and think your odds are good for that out of GW, then sure. But, personally, I'm freaking out about 200K in debt. It's a lot-even if one snags a biglaw job after.

bellamy
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby bellamy » Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:24 pm

I know someone who had a 3.88 GPA. Was sick when he took the LSAT and got a 167. Didn't want to take it a second time but did so and got a 172. Got a Rubenstein at Chicago as well as $75000 at Penn and Duke, $105000 at UVa and $30000 at CLS. RETAKE Incidently I know 3 other people with the very same scores both times and the same GPA who all got $75000 at Chicago,Penn and Duke, RETAKE

blackandyellow
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby blackandyellow » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:56 pm

hedge your risk. Next year, UVA ED and retake. I remember reading someone OOS got into UVA with your same exact numbers, NON URM. If you get your lsat score, UVA hasn;t made a decision, and it is 3-4 pts better, then withdraw your ED.

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YourCaptain
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby YourCaptain » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:19 pm

Because you have a GPA I would have paid $20,000 to have.

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dpk711
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Re: Is it really that bad? HYSCCN etc etc

Postby dpk711 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:21 pm

OP, please don't waste that GPA.




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