USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

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RedItalus10
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USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby RedItalus10 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:10 pm

I am currently WLed at USC, but I want to get an idea of what I should do before I get their decision. My parents will be helping me out a bit for housing costs, but the rest is up to me. When it is all said and done here is the different in debt upon graduation between the two:

USC - 180K debt
ND - 120k debt

COL and tuition are both lower at ND. That combined with with the 30k that they offered me makes up for the 60k difference. I am pretty sure that I do not want big law, but I am sure that I want to work in Los Angeles. Frankly I am intimidated by USC's debt and do not want to be trapped in a job that I don't like because of the high debt-load. Is USC worth sticker if I am debt averse and think that I don't want big law?

Thanks for the advice!

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bk1
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:11 pm

Take ND realizing you will most likely end up in the midwest after graduation.

ETA: If you want LA you should probably retake/reapply and get a T14/USC/UCLA with money or at least a good LRAP.
Last edited by bk1 on Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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buckilaw
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby buckilaw » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:15 pm

RedItalus10 wrote:I am currently WLed at USC, but I want to get an idea of what I should do before I get their decision. My parents will be helping me out a bit for housing costs, but the rest is up to me. When it is all said and done here is the different in debt upon graduation between the two:

USC - 180K debt
ND - 120k debt

COL and tuition are both lower at ND. That combined with with the 30k that they offered me makes up for the 60k difference. I am pretty sure that I do not want big law, but I am sure that I want to work in Los Angeles. Frankly I am intimidated by USC's debt and do not want to be trapped in a job that I don't like because of the high debt-load. Is USC worth sticker if I am debt averse and think that I don't want big law?

Thanks for the advice!


Go to USC if they have a good LARP. If USC does not have a good LARP Retake and Reapply. The chances of you getting any work in LA from ND are slim to none.

snichols16
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby snichols16 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:15 pm

bk1 wrote:Take ND realizing you will most likely end up in the midwest after graduation.


+1

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

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ndirish2010
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:49 pm

ND's propsects on the West Coast are actually not as bad as you might think.

--LinkRemoved--

Plus some SoCal firms do OCI here.

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bk1
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:52 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:ND's propsects on the West Coast are actually not as bad as you might think.

--LinkRemoved--

Plus some SoCal firms do OCI here.


They're not bad per se, but the chances of getting it are pretty slim so the OP should be okay with the very high likelihood that it won't happen.

RedItalus10
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby RedItalus10 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:21 pm

I'm not gonna retake/reapply. I am also weary of doing PI/LRAP after graduation because I want to do private practice. Not sure if LRAP for a few years out would hurt my firm chances. My gut says ND in this situation (in fact I've already deposited, and this all may be moot because I'm only WLed at USC). Visited ND and loved it, but if I somehow get into USC, it's USC and would be hard to turn down. That being said, the farther along I go and the more invested I get at ND (loan apps/housing/contacts/etc) the harder it will be to not go there. I don't want to get sucked into the midwest market. I'm sure that I want LA, even at a slightly lower salary. I've heard that CA is one of the top destinations of ND grads and that those that do go to CA, go to LA. I would just have to do really well during 1L, but we should all aim to do well during 1L anyways, right?

Thanks for the feedback. It is much appreciated.

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ndirish2010
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:21 pm

bk1 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:ND's propsects on the West Coast are actually not as bad as you might think.

--LinkRemoved--

Plus some SoCal firms do OCI here.


They're not bad per se, but the chances of getting it are pretty slim so the OP should be okay with the very high likelihood that it won't happen.


Agreed, I would either eat the extra debt and take USC or retake/reapply.

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bk1
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:23 pm

RedItalus10 wrote:I would just have to do really well during 1L, but we should all aim to do well during 1L anyways, right?


Except you have a roughly 50% chance of ending up with below median 1L grades. The odds are seriously stacked against you trying to get LA out of ND.

RedItalus10
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby RedItalus10 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:28 pm

bk1 wrote:
RedItalus10 wrote:I would just have to do really well during 1L, but we should all aim to do well during 1L anyways, right?


Except you have a roughly 50% chance of ending up with below median 1L grades. The odds are seriously stacked against you trying to get LA out of ND.


"The odds are seriously stacked against you trying to get LA out of ND."
not sure if this is true of mid-law, big-law yes, but it may be debatable for mid-law

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bk1
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:35 pm

RedItalus10 wrote:not sure if this is true of mid-law, big-law yes, but it may be debatable for mid-law


The odds are against you for any LA job out of ND, period. It doesn't matter if it's biglaw, midlaw, smalllaw, gov, PI, whatever. If you have good grades could you get these things? Probably, but you can't even come close to guaranteeing that you will have sufficient grades to make it a reality.

It may even be harder to get some of the mid/small firms since you have to do a lot of legwork and you are at a serious disadvantage compared to USC/UCLA and all the other local kids from T2's who can intern and network in LA while you are stuck in South Bend.

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ndirish2010
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:38 pm

bk1 wrote:
RedItalus10 wrote:not sure if this is true of mid-law, big-law yes, but it may be debatable for mid-law


The odds are against you for any LA job out of ND, period. It doesn't matter if it's biglaw, midlaw, smalllaw, gov, PI, whatever. If you have good grades could you get these things? Probably, but you can't even come close to guaranteeing that you will have sufficient grades to make it a reality.

It may even be harder to get some of the mid/small firms since you have to do a lot of legwork and you are at a serious disadvantage compared to USC/UCLA and all the other local kids from T2's who can intern and network in LA while you are stuck in South Bend.


To be competitive you're probably gong to want to be AT LEAST in the top quarter from NDLS. Of course, the higher the better. Above median and you're probably in good shape to find a job somewhere in the midwest.

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bk1
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:43 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:To be competitive you're probably gong to want to be AT LEAST in the top quarter from NDLS. Of course, the higher the better. Above median and you're probably in good shape to find a job somewhere in the midwest.


That sounds about right. I'd say even below median and you should be able to find a full time job (most likely small firm) in the midwest coming from ND. Bottom 1/3-1/4 is where things begin to look really sketch.

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ndirish2010
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:49 pm

bk1 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:To be competitive you're probably gong to want to be AT LEAST in the top quarter from NDLS. Of course, the higher the better. Above median and you're probably in good shape to find a job somewhere in the midwest.


That sounds about right. I'd say even below median and you should be able to find a full time job (most likely small firm) in the midwest coming from ND. Bottom 1/3-1/4 is where things begin to look really sketch.


I've heard rumors floating around (as of a few weeks ago) that a little over 60% of our 3L class has a job right now, so I guess that would probably back up those numbers...although their market is a bit worse than my class.

RedItalus10
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby RedItalus10 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:51 pm

http://law.nd.edu/careers/employment-data/

seems like people do end up in CA. According to this data, it's the 2nd most represented state in terms of jobs landed by Class of 2010 (#1 is Illinois, #3 is NY). Plus, you figure that job prospects were probably worse for Class of 2010 than they will be for Class of 2014 (we hope?)

I don't mean to argue, after all I was the one asking of the TLS community opinion on this, but I do feel that ND prospects in CA are better than people think. The vibe that I got at ND, was that a lot of where you end up has to do with self-selection. Hardly anyone stays in SouthBend, therefore people go where they want, which explains why people ended up in all of the other random states listed on the website.

ndirish, correct me if I'm wrong, after all you go there and would know better than me

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bk1
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:58 pm

22 kids out of a class size of roughly 175. With 10-20% of the class getting CA, I wouldn't count on it. But of course you could make this argument for other schools too (e.g. Michigan) so I will try to elaborate:

All the top regional schools (ND, GW, WUSTL, etc) try to sell themselves as national and that it is all selfselection. The reality is that it often is going to take great grades to get the location you want outside the region because you don't have the opportunity to network compared to the local kids in the area you are trying to compete against nor do you have the name of a truly national school to back you up.

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ndirish2010
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:00 pm

RedItalus10 wrote:http://law.nd.edu/careers/employment-data/

seems like people do end up in CA. According to this data, it's the 2nd most represented state in terms of jobs landed by Class of 2010 (#1 is Illinois, #3 is NY). Plus, you figure that job prospects were probably worse for Class of 2010 than they will be for Class of 2014 (we hope?)

I don't mean to argue, after all I was the one asking of the TLS community opinion on this, but I do feel that ND prospects in CA are better than people think. The vibe that I got at ND, was that a lot of where you end up has to do with self-selection. Hardly anyone stays in SouthBend, therefore people go where they want, which explains why people ended up in all of the other random states listed on the website.

ndirish, correct me if I'm wrong, after all you go there and would know better than me


I know there are a lot of people in my class that are from California and hope to go back. My guess is that those with ties will do better than those without them. I only know 1Ls but I've heard of people going to work in LA this summer as well as several other locations (Phoenix, Orlando, Philadelphia, DC being among them). Only one of those went to the area with no ties, however. And I also have no idea about their grades. I do know people get LA from NDLS, so it is not impossible, but I also know that the lower your grades, the more constrained you will be because LA employers will not feel the need to take a median ND student when they can get someone top 15% from an LA T2.

RedItalus10
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby RedItalus10 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:04 pm

bk1 wrote:22 kids out of a class size of roughly 175. With 10-20% of the class getting CA, I wouldn't count on it. But of course you could make this argument for other schools too (e.g. Michigan) so I will try to elaborate:

All the top regional schools (ND, GW, WUSTL, etc) try to sell themselves as national and that it is all selfselection. The reality is that it often is going to take great grades to get the location you want outside the region because you don't have the opportunity to network compared to the local kids in the area you are trying to compete against nor do you have the name of a truly national school to back you up.



I would agree with the second part, that ND was trying to sell itself (all schools do) and that removing myself from the location in which I want to practice is a risk (I had to weigh this risk when I was debating ND vs. Hastings), BUT in response to the fact that only 22 kids out of 175 got CA: not all 175 wanted to go to CA. a way smaller number did and still CA was the 2nd most represented. All that being said, I understand being in SouthBend, away from CA people is risky, but I think it may be less risky than what is broadly understood to be the case.

RedItalus10
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby RedItalus10 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:06 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
RedItalus10 wrote:http://law.nd.edu/careers/employment-data/

seems like people do end up in CA. According to this data, it's the 2nd most represented state in terms of jobs landed by Class of 2010 (#1 is Illinois, #3 is NY). Plus, you figure that job prospects were probably worse for Class of 2010 than they will be for Class of 2014 (we hope?)

I don't mean to argue, after all I was the one asking of the TLS community opinion on this, but I do feel that ND prospects in CA are better than people think. The vibe that I got at ND, was that a lot of where you end up has to do with self-selection. Hardly anyone stays in SouthBend, therefore people go where they want, which explains why people ended up in all of the other random states listed on the website.

ndirish, correct me if I'm wrong, after all you go there and would know better than me


I know there are a lot of people in my class that are from California and hope to go back. My guess is that those with ties will do better than those without them. I only know 1Ls but I've heard of people going to work in LA this summer as well as several other locations (Phoenix, Orlando, Philadelphia, DC being among them). Only one of those went to the area with no ties, however. And I also have no idea about their grades. I do know people get LA from NDLS, so it is not impossible, but I also know that the lower your grades, the more constrained you will be because LA employers will not feel the need to take a median ND student when they can get someone top 15% from an LA T2.



fwiw, i have strong ties to LA...grew up here, pretty much all my family is here

I understand that firms would prefer to invest in law school locals, which adds to grade pressure for me

thanks ndirish for the insight

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ndirish2010
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Re: USC (sticker) vs. ND (30K)

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:17 pm

PMed...




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