Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

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stephencolbert
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Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby stephencolbert » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:29 am

willl either try for biglaw in chicago or public policy/politics in dc/elsewhere. thoughts?

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thexfactor
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby thexfactor » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:46 am

id choose vandy.
better biglaw prospects as a whole. Not too many people will gun for chicago. Vandy places around 30% while minn is around 15-10%.

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enron123
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby enron123 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:49 am

I would think that a lot of kids in Midwest schools would gun for Chicago no? I'm going to

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Magnolia
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby Magnolia » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:55 am

DC is a hyper competitive market for everyone, regardless of where you're in school. Vandy gives you a better chance, but it's still a longshot. While both Vandy and UMN have the potential to get you to Chicago, I wouldn't say that either places really strongly there. You should consider the possibility that you will be stuck in Minnesota if you go to UMN and in the south if you go to Vandy. If you can't handle either of those scenarios, then cross that school off your list.

Vandy is more portable than UMN and will give you more options geography-wise. You won't be competing with very many of your classmates for Chicago jobs. It could also probably get you to NYC if you're interested in that. But, I don't think Vandy is worth sticker. Then again, I wouldn't suggest taking the money at UMN if you don't want to end up in the non-Chicago midwest.

If you absolutely have to have Chicago or DC, then you need to retake and get into better schools. Otherwise, decide whether you prefer the midwest or the south, and pick your school accordingly.

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gogators
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby gogators » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:10 pm

Magnolia wrote:Vandy is more portable than UMN and will give you more options geography-wise.


This is true and if you're really looking at two totally different markets like Chicago or D.C. then Vandy is the way to go. However, money is a big issue and shouldn't be ignored.

mettasutta
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby mettasutta » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:19 pm

I'd go with Vandy for more mobility, although sticker is rough (low CoL in Nashville, but tuition alone is close to 45K/year). As you've already been accepted, you have nothing to lose by writing a scholarship negotiation letter to Vandy mentioning UMinn's competing offer. I'm not sure if they're peer schools, but they're definitely not too far away rankings wise. I could PM you my negotiation letter if you want a sample of what a successful one looks like.

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tea_drinker
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby tea_drinker » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:38 pm

Magnolia wrote:DC is a hyper competitive market for everyone, regardless of where you're in school. Vandy gives you a better chance, but it's still a longshot. While both Vandy and UMN have the potential to get you to Chicago, I wouldn't say that either places really strongly there. You should consider the possibility that you will be stuck in Minnesota if you go to UMN and in the south if you go to Vandy. If you can't handle either of those scenarios, then cross that school off your list.

Vandy is more portable than UMN and will give you more options geography-wise. You won't be competing with very many of your classmates for Chicago jobs. It could also probably get you to NYC if you're interested in that. But, I don't think Vandy is worth sticker. Then again, I wouldn't suggest taking the money at UMN if you don't want to end up in the non-Chicago midwest.

If you absolutely have to have Chicago or DC, then you need to retake and get into better schools. Otherwise, decide whether you prefer the midwest or the south, and pick your school accordingly.



I like your tar

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Flips88
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby Flips88 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:43 pm

Vandy @ Sticker will run you $205k without accounting for increases in tuition/COL and interest accruing on loans.

How much is COA at UMN for you?

$205k is a lot of money and if you miss the big law boat that'll be very hard to manage. Vandy's LRAP is very bad relatively speaking. Caps at $50k and at that point they only help with 20% of your payment. If you're comfortable with that risk, then go ahead, but if you end up in PI from Vandy, it'll be a tough financial situation.

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thexfactor
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby thexfactor » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:41 pm

Flips88 wrote:Vandy @ Sticker will run you $205k without accounting for increases in tuition/COL and interest accruing on loans.

How much is COA at UMN for you?

$205k is a lot of money and if you miss the big law boat that'll be very hard to manage. Vandy's LRAP is very bad relatively speaking. Caps at $50k and at that point they only help with 20% of your payment. If you're comfortable with that risk, then go ahead, but if you end up in PI from Vandy, it'll be a tough financial situation.


not true. IBR's PSLF plan wipes out your debt in 10 years if you do PI.
Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF)
This benefit is for people who work in certain "public service" jobs in government and nonprofit 501(c)(3) organizations (for details see What are eligible jobs?). The program will forgive remaining federal student loan debt after 10 years of eligible employment and qualifying payments.

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Flips88
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby Flips88 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:34 pm

thexfactor wrote:
Flips88 wrote:Vandy @ Sticker will run you $205k without accounting for increases in tuition/COL and interest accruing on loans.

How much is COA at UMN for you?

$205k is a lot of money and if you miss the big law boat that'll be very hard to manage. Vandy's LRAP is very bad relatively speaking. Caps at $50k and at that point they only help with 20% of your payment. If you're comfortable with that risk, then go ahead, but if you end up in PI from Vandy, it'll be a tough financial situation.


not true. IBR's PSLF plan wipes out your debt in 10 years if you do PI.
Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF)
This benefit is for people who work in certain "public service" jobs in government and nonprofit 501(c)(3) organizations (for details see What are eligible jobs?). The program will forgive remaining federal student loan debt after 10 years of eligible employment and qualifying payments.

I'm fully aware, but some have expressed concern that that program may not last too long with all the impending budget cuts. This level of debt locks you into big law, PI, or bust. You can't get a job that pays $60k at a private firm and manage your debt, unless you do it on a 25 year IBR plan (and who really wants to be paying off their student loans till they're over 50?)

the Public Service Loan Forgiveness is a good plan to have and hopefully, if it gets axed for some reason, they will grandfather people in. It's a great program and a good plan to have, but it's not optimal because that level of debt locks you in.

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drylo
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby drylo » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:14 pm

Flips88 wrote:
thexfactor wrote:
Flips88 wrote:Vandy @ Sticker will run you $205k without accounting for increases in tuition/COL and interest accruing on loans.

How much is COA at UMN for you?

$205k is a lot of money and if you miss the big law boat that'll be very hard to manage. Vandy's LRAP is very bad relatively speaking. Caps at $50k and at that point they only help with 20% of your payment. If you're comfortable with that risk, then go ahead, but if you end up in PI from Vandy, it'll be a tough financial situation.


not true. IBR's PSLF plan wipes out your debt in 10 years if you do PI.
Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF)
This benefit is for people who work in certain "public service" jobs in government and nonprofit 501(c)(3) organizations (for details see What are eligible jobs?). The program will forgive remaining federal student loan debt after 10 years of eligible employment and qualifying payments.

I'm fully aware, but some have expressed concern that that program may not last too long with all the impending budget cuts. This level of debt locks you into big law, PI, or bust. You can't get a job that pays $60k at a private firm and manage your debt, unless you do it on a 25 year IBR plan (and who really wants to be paying off their student loans till they're over 50?)

the Public Service Loan Forgiveness is a good plan to have and hopefully, if it gets axed for some reason, they will grandfather people in. It's a great program and a good plan to have, but it's not optimal because that level of debt locks you in.


I am with you as far as not wanting to pay down school debt till you are 50, but it's surprising how many people do that (or close). A couple other things, though:

(1) You could definitely live in Nashville for under that $205k figure. You could also spend more than that if you wanted to. Also consider that the majority of people going into firm practice will make $15k+ over at least one of the summers.

(2) I am not terribly familiar with the LRAPs, but from my understanding, it seems like each school just has different strengths and weaknesses. You are constantly critical of Vandy's LRAP, but I'm not sure that it is objectively worse than that at other schools. For instance, at GULC, I believe that you have to work in qualifying PI for 10 years in order to be be eligible for LRAP, whereas Vandy's would provide assistance for as long as you are remain in qualifying PI but does not impose a minimum amount of time that you have to keep working PI.

flexityflex86
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby flexityflex86 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:17 pm

I think it is all contingent on how much money UMN gave you. I am also surprised I'm the first to ask about this.

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Flips88
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby Flips88 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:26 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:I think it is all contingent on how much money UMN gave you. I am also surprised I'm the first to ask about this.

Flips88 wrote:How much is COA at UMN for you?

I asked, but never got an answer

flexityflex86
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby flexityflex86 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:30 pm

Flips88 wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:I think it is all contingent on how much money UMN gave you. I am also surprised I'm the first to ask about this.

Flips88 wrote:How much is COA at UMN for you?

I asked, but never got an answer

Vanderbilt is significantly better than UMN.

But it isn't sticker vs. full ride better. I would say the over/under in taking UMN would be 75k.

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Flips88
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby Flips88 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:37 pm

drylo wrote:I am with you as far as not wanting to pay down school debt till you are 50, but it's surprising how many people do that (or close). A couple other things, though:

(1) You could definitely live in Nashville for under that $205k figure. You could also spend more than that if you wanted to. Also consider that the majority of people going into firm practice will make $15k+ over at least one of the summers.

(2) I am not terribly familiar with the LRAPs, but from my understanding, it seems like each school just has different strengths and weaknesses. You are constantly critical of Vandy's LRAP, but I'm not sure that it is objectively worse than that at other schools. For instance, at GULC, I believe that you have to work in qualifying PI for 10 years in order to be be eligible for LRAP, whereas Vandy's would provide assistance for as long as you are remain in qualifying PI but does not impose a minimum amount of time that you have to keep working PI.

Well it'll be $137,250+COL+tuition increases+interest accrued. I was just going by the Estimate COA provided by Vandy which is $68,664 for next year.

And I guess, yes, GULC's LRAP does lock you into PI for 10 years, but it's not like anyone is going to go PI->Big Law really. GULC covers your full payment up to $75,000. Vandy at maximum covers 50% of your payment and that's if you make $34,000 or below. It's scaled from there, maxing at 20% for $50k and you get nothing if you make above that.

Either way, at that level of debt, you're locked in for 10 years planning on the wipe via PSLF. Your payments, if you put it on an IBR 25 year plan, will barely cut into the interest and will never touch the principal. Theoretically, if a school had a phenomenal LRAP and you did it for 5 years on a standard 10 year plan and got your debt down to something manageable, then you could leave and pay it on your own. However, that will not be possible at Vandy.

Let's say you manage to keep debt down to $180k and the interest rate is 7.2% consolidated. So you get a PI job that pays $45,000 but you want to pay down the debt so you don't have to be locked in for a decade. Your monthly payment per the FinAid calculator is $2,100 per month.At many T-20 schools and nearly all T-14 that is possible. The school would cover your entire debt payment each month. However, Vandy would only cover 20%. So while you're on the hook for $25,200 a year (over half your salary), Vandy will help out with $5k of it and you still have $20k to deal with. Even if Vandy still doesn't lock you in like others, you don't have any freedom to leave when you're taking it at sticker price.

I'm not saying this to hate on Vandy. It's one of my final two school choices, but their LRAP is my biggest concern since I'm looking at $170k or so worth of debt for attending and would like to go into PI.

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Lonagan
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby Lonagan » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:39 pm

I'm unexcited about being at Minnesota with $$, however, I don't know that I am sufficiently unexcited that I would prefer Vandy at sticker. That's an awful lot of money for a marginal increase in quality / portability.

DAisaka09
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby DAisaka09 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:39 pm

drylo wrote:(2) I am not terribly familiar with the LRAPs, but from my understanding, it seems like each school just has different strengths and weaknesses. You are constantly critical of Vandy's LRAP, but I'm not sure that it is objectively worse than that at other schools. For instance, at GULC, I believe that you have to work in qualifying PI for 10 years in order to be be eligible for LRAP, whereas Vandy's would provide assistance for as long as you are remain in qualifying PI but does not impose a minimum amount of time that you have to keep working PI.



Both GULC and Vandy's LRAP require enrollment in IBR meaning to get the full benefit you will have to stay in PI for 10 years under both plans. The difference being GULC's floor is $25,000 higher and GULC will pay %100 of your payments as they come in while Vandy only covers a percentage. I think it's safe to say that GULC's LRAP is unconditionally better.

flexityflex86
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby flexityflex86 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:02 pm

Lonagan wrote:I'm unexcited about being at Minnesota with $$, however, I don't know that I am sufficiently unexcited that I would prefer Vandy at sticker. That's an awful lot of money for a marginal increase in quality / portability.

Idk how marginal it is if you want NYC big law.

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Lonagan
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby Lonagan » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:26 pm

If you want NYC biglaw there is zero reason to go to Minnesota.

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Flips88
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby Flips88 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:29 pm

Lonagan wrote:If you want NYC biglaw there is zero reason to go to Minnesota.

Well obviously.

The choice OP needs to make is whether they are content with working in the Midwest region (MN, WI, IL) or having more of a national reach. Depending on the COA for them at UMN the difference could be $75k or more. It's up to them to decide whether that's worth it.

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drylo
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Re: Minnesota ($$) or Vanderbilt (sticker)???

Postby drylo » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:43 pm

Flips88 wrote:
drylo wrote:I am with you as far as not wanting to pay down school debt till you are 50, but it's surprising how many people do that (or close). A couple other things, though:

(1) You could definitely live in Nashville for under that $205k figure. You could also spend more than that if you wanted to. Also consider that the majority of people going into firm practice will make $15k+ over at least one of the summers.

(2) I am not terribly familiar with the LRAPs, but from my understanding, it seems like each school just has different strengths and weaknesses. You are constantly critical of Vandy's LRAP, but I'm not sure that it is objectively worse than that at other schools. For instance, at GULC, I believe that you have to work in qualifying PI for 10 years in order to be be eligible for LRAP, whereas Vandy's would provide assistance for as long as you are remain in qualifying PI but does not impose a minimum amount of time that you have to keep working PI.

Well it'll be $137,250+COL+tuition increases+interest accrued. I was just going by the Estimate COA provided by Vandy which is $68,664 for next year.

And I guess, yes, GULC's LRAP does lock you into PI for 10 years, but it's not like anyone is going to go PI->Big Law really. GULC covers your full payment up to $75,000. Vandy at maximum covers 50% of your payment and that's if you make $34,000 or below. It's scaled from there, maxing at 20% for $50k and you get nothing if you make above that.

Either way, at that level of debt, you're locked in for 10 years planning on the wipe via PSLF. Your payments, if you put it on an IBR 25 year plan, will barely cut into the interest and will never touch the principal. Theoretically, if a school had a phenomenal LRAP and you did it for 5 years on a standard 10 year plan and got your debt down to something manageable, then you could leave and pay it on your own. However, that will not be possible at Vandy.

Let's say you manage to keep debt down to $180k and the interest rate is 7.2% consolidated. So you get a PI job that pays $45,000 but you want to pay down the debt so you don't have to be locked in for a decade. Your monthly payment per the FinAid calculator is $2,100 per month.At many T-20 schools and nearly all T-14 that is possible. The school would cover your entire debt payment each month. However, Vandy would only cover 20%. So while you're on the hook for $25,200 a year (over half your salary), Vandy will help out with $5k of it and you still have $20k to deal with. Even if Vandy still doesn't lock you in like others, you don't have any freedom to leave when you're taking it at sticker price.

I'm not saying this to hate on Vandy. It's one of my final two school choices, but their LRAP is my biggest concern since I'm looking at $170k or so worth of debt for attending and would like to go into PI.


Like I said, I'm not terribly familiar with LRAPs... nor do I care enough to do the analysis like you have done, especially with a Securities Reg final tomorrow morning. My whole point was basically just that everybody who is particularly interested in LRAP should look carefully at the pros and cons of each school's program (which admittedly, I have not done--and you have).




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