UConn vs. American U

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Grizz
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby Grizz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:51 pm

reasonable_man wrote:You will never practice "international human rights law." You will never draft a habeus petition for the release of a South American blue tusked elephant being wrongfully held by a tribe that just so happens to subscribers to an arcane international treaty that requires said elephant’s release. You will never argue a case before the Hague and you will most certainly never practice with an attorney that has done any of these things. Attending American or UConn will allow you to obtain a job (if you are lucky), in a small to mid-sized firm earning anywhere from 40 to 70k to start. You will not do “meaningful” work. You will work on run of the mill low end corporate transactions or practice in some area of litigation ranging from pure shit law to some manner of commercial litigation. That said, UConn and American are no different in what opportunities they will offer (other than geography of said opportunities). With that in mind, I’d go with UConn and save a ton of cash.


This.

Also Fordham at sticker is pretty damn risky too.

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red_alertz
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby red_alertz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:54 pm

NOT TRUE, even T3 and T4 grads will earn 40k-70k after graduation, just look it up the median for these schools, american being a T1 and UCONN defacto T1 will certainly do better, i don't recall the data, but i'd think the medican would be around 100k?

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romothesavior
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:23 pm

red_alertz wrote:NOT TRUE, even T3 and T4 grads will earn 40k-70k after graduation, just look it up the median for these schools, american being a T1 and UCONN defacto T1 will certainly do better, i don't recall the data, but i'd think the medican would be around 100k?

Shut up. Seriously. You have no idea what you are talking about, and it is borderline unethical for you to continue to propagate this mindless drivel. When it comes to choosing a law school, people's livelihoods are on the line. Stop encouraging people to restrict (or in many cases, destroy) their financial and career opportunities.

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red_alertz
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby red_alertz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:25 pm

romothesavior wrote:
red_alertz wrote:NOT TRUE, even T3 and T4 grads will earn 40k-70k after graduation, just look it up the median for these schools, american being a T1 and UCONN defacto T1 will certainly do better, i don't recall the data, but i'd think the medican would be around 100k?

Shut up. Seriously. You have no idea what you are talking about, and it is borderline unethical for you to continue to propagate this mindless drivel. When it comes to choosing a law school, people's livelihoods are on the line. Stop encouraging people to restrict (or in many cases, destroy) their financial and career opportunities.


so are you suggesting the data posted by TLS is false? the median salary etc.?

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romothesavior
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:26 pm

red_alertz wrote:NOT TRUE, even T3 and T4 grads will earn 40k-70k after graduation, just look it up the median for these schools, american being a T1 and UCONN defacto T1 will certainly do better, i don't recall the data, but i'd think the medican would be around 100k?

I posted this in another thread, but I am re-posting it here. I think it is important for people in OP's position to understand just how wrong red_alertz is.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704913304575371243914408322.html?mod=WSJ_hps_editorsPicks_3

According to this July WSJ article (which got its data from NALP, which is the most reliable source there is for legal hiring data), 71% of the class of 2009 had jobs that required a J.D. and bar passage. Of those, 25% said that their employment was temporary (see: temporary contract attorneys, which is often the kiss of death for becoming a full-time lawyer). And although the article doesn't say, I'd imagine a decent portion of that 71% were counted as employed because they hung their own shingle and started a solo practice (which is typically a route only taken by recent grads who can't find a job, and it is a pretty ill-advised move, both professionally and financially, to go solo right out of law school). Also, 2% of those reporting jobs were thanks to fellowships or grants provided by their law schools, and a decent chunk of those employed were also part-time. So a pretty solid estimate would be that ~50-60% of the class of 2009 found a full-time, real lawyering job?

And it is a real mistake to think "Well, 50% of the students at school X found legal employment." I know this is oh-so-elitist to say, but the reality is that tier 1 grades (and especially T14 grads) made up the lion's share of the total percentage of employed graduates. At some of the very worst law schools in the country, it wouldn't be unreasonable to estimate that <25% of grads found full-time, real legal employment.

edit: Here's the NALP report on that data: http://www.nalp.org/2009selectedfindingsrelease. I'd ignore the overall employment rate, because law schools have gotten really good at manipulating that data in the last 10-20 years. The crucial portion of the report is near the bottom, where they talk about those in J.D.-required, bar passage-required jobs, aka real legal jobs. (Even this is probably manipulated to some degree, but it is a better metric than the overall employment numbers). Again, 71% employed in these law-degree required jobs, with 23% of these being temporary, 2% being grant jobs from the school (like the SMU program), 3% being solos, and more than 10% of all total jobs being part-time.


Again OP, you've got a decent option with UConn, but I think you can do better, especially if you want to end up in NYC. Good luck.

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romothesavior
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:27 pm

red_alertz wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
red_alertz wrote:NOT TRUE, even T3 and T4 grads will earn 40k-70k after graduation, just look it up the median for these schools, american being a T1 and UCONN defacto T1 will certainly do better, i don't recall the data, but i'd think the medican would be around 100k?

Shut up. Seriously. You have no idea what you are talking about, and it is borderline unethical for you to continue to propagate this mindless drivel. When it comes to choosing a law school, people's livelihoods are on the line. Stop encouraging people to restrict (or in many cases, destroy) their financial and career opportunities.


so are you suggesting the data posted by TLS is false? the median salary etc.?

Yes, that is absolutely what I'm saying. Nearly all law school self-reported data is blatantly 100% false. Numbers like "employed at 9 months" and "median salary" are beyond bogus.

Just read the post I just made ITT. Then go away.

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red_alertz
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby red_alertz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:31 pm

romothesavior wrote:
red_alertz wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
red_alertz wrote:NOT TRUE, even T3 and T4 grads will earn 40k-70k after graduation, just look it up the median for these schools, american being a T1 and UCONN defacto T1 will certainly do better, i don't recall the data, but i'd think the medican would be around 100k?

Shut up. Seriously. You have no idea what you are talking about, and it is borderline unethical for you to continue to propagate this mindless drivel. When it comes to choosing a law school, people's livelihoods are on the line. Stop encouraging people to restrict (or in many cases, destroy) their financial and career opportunities.


so are you suggesting the data posted by TLS is false? the median salary etc.?

Yes, that is absolutely what I'm saying. Nearly all law school self-reported data is blatantly 100% false. Numbers like "employed at 9 months" and "median salary" are beyond bogus.

Just read the post I just made ITT. Then go away.


how do law schools get away with such reporting then?

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thexfactor
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby thexfactor » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:37 pm

that is the 10 million dollar question........................

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gwuorbust
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:53 pm

red_alertz wrote:how do law schools get away with such reporting then?


see one of the million of other threads on this. and until then stop posting because you are posting lies that hapless 0Ls may believe.

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red_alertz
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby red_alertz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:55 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
red_alertz wrote:how do law schools get away with such reporting then?


see one of the million of other threads on this. and until then stop posting because you are posting lies that hapless 0Ls may believe.


i am a 0L, and i doubt law schools could make up bs like that

scammedhard
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby scammedhard » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:59 pm

red_alertz wrote:i am a 0L, and i doubt law schools could make up bs like that

Really? Besides a gazillion news stories and other articles about it, here is a letter from a US Senator to the ABA demanding that they get their act together:

March 31, 2011

Stephen N. Zack
President
American Bar Association
740 15th Street, N.W.
Washington, DC 20005-1019

Dear Mr. Zack:

As you know, recent news articles have raised concerns about the reporting of admissions and post-graduation information by the American Bar Association and law schools across the country. It is essential that students deciding if and where to attend law school have access to information that is accurate and transparent. The ABA, as the accrediting body charged with oversight of the nation’s law schools, must ensure standards and accountability.

As the economy continues to recover from the recession, many new law school graduates are struggling to find jobs as attorneys. According to Northwestern University, at least 15,000 legal jobs with large firms have disappeared since 2008. The Bureau of Labor Statistics indicates that the number of people employed in legal services has decreased from a high of 1.2 million in 2007, to less than 1 million in 2009. Experts predict that fewer than 30,000 new attorney positions per year will be available to the more than 44,000 law school graduates entering the marketplace each year.

This very serious problem takes on greater significance when viewed in the context of news articles highlighting law schools that allegedly falsify post-graduation and salary information in attempts to increase their position in the annual U.S. News and World Report rankings.

Most students reasonably expect to obtain post-graduation employment that will allow them to pay off their student loan debts, and rely on this information - which may be false at worst and misleading at best - to inform their decision.

As reported in the New York Times and other publications, the ABA allows law schools to report salary information of the highest earning graduates as if it were representative of the entire class. Also, when reporting critical post-graduation employment information, law schools are not distinguishing between graduates practicing law full-time from those working part-time or in non-legal fields.

I understand that some ABA members have been pressing for reform, that the ABA has appointed committees to review ways to increase oversight and transparency, and that U.S. News and World Report has requested greater transparency from law school deans. These are good first steps, but more must be done to ensure potential students have a full understanding of the costs and benefits of a legal education.

I am requesting that you provide me with a detailed summary of the ABA’s plans to implement reforms to its current procedures to ensure access to accurate and transparent information for prospective law school students.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Sincerely,

Barbara Boxer
United States Senator

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red_alertz
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby red_alertz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:01 pm

interesting, surely that does not pertain to any T1 or T2 schools

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gwuorbust
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:01 pm

red_alertz wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:
red_alertz wrote:how do law schools get away with such reporting then?


see one of the million of other threads on this. and until then stop posting because you are posting lies that hapless 0Ls may believe.


i am a 0L, and i doubt law schools could make up bs like that


well use the search button, read up and edumacte yourself. because law school do lie. it is not an unknown fact, just one schools do not like to talk about. Rad, Romo and myself each have thousands of posts spelling this out in detail.

but hey, if you like to believe what is in those glossy pamphlets and ignore what we have to say - then you deserve all the undischargable debt you can take on.

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paratactical
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby paratactical » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:02 pm

red_alertz wrote:interesting, surely that does not pertain to any T1 or T2 schools

You've gotta be one of the best/most convincing trolls ever, but you need to stop spreading this misinformation, yo.

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bk1
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:04 pm

paratactical wrote:
red_alertz wrote:interesting, surely that does not pertain to any T1 or T2 schools

You've gotta be one of the best/most convincing trolls ever, but you need to stop spreading this misinformation, yo.


+1

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gwuorbust
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:07 pm

paratactical wrote:
red_alertz wrote:interesting, surely that does not pertain to any T1 or T2 schools

You've gotta be one of the best/most convincing trolls ever, but you need to stop spreading this misinformation, yo.


Para, do you think this is the kind of thing we can report to the mods? because this misinformation is down right dangerous.

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red_alertz
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby red_alertz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:08 pm

i am asking questions and seeking information, as you can see, i am a 0L, you guys provide information vastly different or outright opposite of the conventional knowledge on law schools

scammedhard
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby scammedhard » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:09 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
paratactical wrote:
red_alertz wrote:interesting, surely that does not pertain to any T1 or T2 schools

You've gotta be one of the best/most convincing trolls ever, but you need to stop spreading this misinformation, yo.


Para, do you think this is the kind of thing we can report to the mods? because this misinformation is down right dangerous.

Yes, have him/her banned. And also have the IP address banned, so that he/she doesn't come back with a new name.

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bk1
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:26 pm

red_alertz wrote:i am asking questions and seeking information, as you can see, i am a 0L, you guys provide information vastly different or outright opposite of the conventional knowledge on law schools


You mean the conventional wisdom of things like prelaw advisors and the general public?

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romothesavior
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:31 pm

red_alertz wrote:i am asking questions and seeking information

No you're not. You're telling us we're wrong, you're spouting off ridiculous B.S., and generally just being a stubborn tool.

If you want to ask questions and seek information, fine. Like you said, you're just a 0L and you don't know any better. That's understandable, we were all there once, and like you said, the stuff you hear on TLS is very different from the general "conventional wisdom" about how law is such a baller field. But please, leave the advice to those with knowledge of the situation and try to learn a little about it before dispensing with your "wisdom." Those of us with the 10k+ posts are usually people who are actually in law school, recently graduated law school, or are closely related to the law (like paratactical). A lot of us have been on TLS and have been studying this stuff for years, so I think we know a little bit more about it than you. Please take in some of the info before blindly spouting out your own.

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red_alertz
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby red_alertz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:36 pm

I am, on the other hand, sometimes your info is so outrageously elitists it's hard to bare

Lotus24
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby Lotus24 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:37 pm

thanks for everyone's thoughts...

ummm....just to bring it back to my original question for a sec, I have a question about not having heard from Fordham yet. Should I take it as likely that it's a no or a waitlist given I still have nothing from them? I applied late in the cycle (submitted Feb 11). I saw their first deadline was April 15th, so it is safe to assume anything??

Thanks for all the valuable advice so far. Most of this has been helpful :)

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snapdragon
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby snapdragon » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:38 pm

Lotus24 wrote:thanks for everyone's thoughts...

ummm....just to bring it back to my original question for a sec, I have a question about not having heard from Fordham yet. Should I take it as likely that it's a no or a waitlist given I still have nothing from them? I applied late in the cycle (submitted Feb 11). I saw their first deadline was April 15th, so it is safe to assume anything??

Thanks for all the valuable advice so far. Most of this has been helpful :)


Oh wow, Lotus, I didn't realize you applied so late. If you got a WL from Duke applying in mid Feb, I'd definitely recommend re-applying, even if you don't improve your LSAT. A Feb application vs. a Sept/Oct application really does make a difference.

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bk1
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:39 pm

red_alertz wrote:I am, on the other hand, sometimes your info is so outrageously elitists it's hard to bare


It really isn't elitist. People on TLS don't tell you to go to the better school simply because it is prestigious but rather because the better school offers materially better job prospects. The legal field and legal hiring is very driven by prestige so it forces prospective students to care about prestige as well.

TLS doesn't say that people will fail to find a decent job coming out of a TTT or TTTT school because they want to see people fail but because the majority of kids coming out of these schools end up unemployed, employed part time, or employed in a job that doesn't require a JD and none of those jobs can help to pay off the $100,000 or more in loans that the average law school grad racks up.

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gwuorbust
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Re: UConn vs. American U

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:41 pm

bk1 wrote:
red_alertz wrote:I am, on the other hand, sometimes your info is so outrageously elitists it's hard to bare


It really isn't elitist. People on TLS don't tell you to go to the better school simply because it is prestigious but rather because the better school offers materially better job prospects. The legal field and legal hiring is very driven by prestige so it forces prospective students to care about prestige as well.

TLS doesn't say that people will fail to find a decent job coming out of a TTT or TTTT school because they want to see people fail but because the majority of kids coming out of these schools end up unemployed, employed part time, or employed in a job that doesn't require a JD and none of those jobs can help to pay off the $100,000 or more in loans that the average law school grad racks up.


don't feed the troll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




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