Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

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ND with $$ or Minnesota with $$?

Notre Dame 20k/year scholarship
50
52%
Minnesota 22k/year scholarship
46
48%
 
Total votes: 96

HeavenWood
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:46 pm

Law Sauce wrote:
quixotical wrote:
Do you really think being an atheist is a shameful secret? 16% of the US population is non-religious... so we're a minority, but not *that* much of a minority. I suspect it's worse to be an atheist in some places than others... are you in the deep south/the Bible belt? There's definitely a stigma against it, but in academia (with the exception of religiously affiliated schools) there is a much higher number of atheists. Atheism correlates positively to education and intelligence.


I haven't spoken at all yet, but come one. This is incredibly ridiculous. See the enlightenment project's prediction of the end of religion after 1920.


There is a correlation, albeit a very weak one.

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PinkCow
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby PinkCow » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:54 pm

Dude, go back to r/circlejerk. This is clearly where you get all of your information.

/thread.

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bk1
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:58 pm

1. OP stop getting your panties in a bunch about the religion thing. If it bothers you that much you probably should just leave America. As someone who is also atheist I am telling you that you will be more comfortable if you grow a thick skin and stop letting it bother you.

2. Why is everybody saying that ND>UMinn? UMinn may not place as much in NLJ250 jobs but UMinn does almost as well at placing kids into 6 figure salary jobs as ND does. The differences between these schools isn't very large and if OP would be okay working in the Twin Cities then I think UMinn is a fantastic choice. ND will probably have larger pull in the midwest generally but I don't think that ND > UMinn if OP is okay with Minnesota considering they have really similar general job prospects.

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lisjjen
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby lisjjen » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:07 pm

bk1 wrote:1. OP stop getting your panties in a bunch about the religion thing. If it bothers you that much you probably should just leave America. As someone who is also atheist I am telling you that you will be more comfortable if you grow a thick skin and stop letting it bother you.

2. Why is everybody saying that ND>UMinn? UMinn may not place as much in NLJ250 jobs but UMinn does almost as well at placing kids into 6 figure salary jobs as ND does. The differences between these schools isn't very large and if OP would be okay working in the Twin Cities then I think UMinn is a fantastic choice. ND will probably have larger pull in the midwest generally but I don't think that ND > UMinn if OP is okay with Minnesota considering they have really similar general job prospects.


In response to number 1, this isn't the first time I've heard you advocate the stiff upper lip. I think it's a point well made.

In response to the second point, I got the impression that the Twin Cities' heavy Fortune 500 presence helped buoy UMN salaries, even if the school isn't putting as many people into NLJ 250 firms.

splitmuch
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby splitmuch » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:10 pm

bk1 wrote:1. OP stop getting your panties in a bunch about the religion thing. If it bothers you that much you probably should just leave America. As someone who is also atheist I am telling you that you will be more comfortable if you grow a thick skin and stop letting it bother you.

2. Why is everybody saying that ND>UMinn? UMinn may not place as much in NLJ250 jobs but UMinn does almost as well at placing kids into 6 figure salary jobs as ND does. The differences between these schools isn't very large and if OP would be okay working in the Twin Cities then I think UMinn is a fantastic choice. ND will probably have larger pull in the midwest generally but I don't think that ND > UMinn if OP is okay with Minnesota considering they have really similar general job prospects.



I think the national reach of ND and its network is the driving force between the ND>Minn, especially when coupled with its PI bent and the influence that lay prestige can have on some PI jobs. But the difference is definitely not big enough to overcome what the personal discomfort the OP will have at ND (forgetting judgment on the merit of that discomfort).

minuit
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby minuit » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:11 pm

from the 1st page of this thread, to now the 7th page, i keep asking myself why this hasn't been locked yet.

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bk1
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:14 pm

lisjjen wrote:In response to number 1, this isn't the first time I've heard you advocate the stiff upper lip. I think it's a point well made.

Thanks.

lisjjen wrote:In response to the second point, I got the impression that the Twin Cities' heavy Fortune 500 presence helped buoy UMN salaries, even if the school isn't putting as many people into NLJ 250 firms.

I have no idea. Just from looking at the 2009 salary and employment data, ND and UMinn don't look drastically different.

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bk1
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:17 pm

splitmuch wrote:I think the national reach of ND and its network is the driving force between the ND>Minn, especially when coupled with its PI bent and the influence that lay prestige can have on some PI jobs. But the difference is definitely not big enough to overcome what the personal discomfort the OP will have at ND (forgetting judgment on the merit of that discomfort).


Fair enough, but I would say that going to ND for anything other than the midwest is an awful idea. And that the percentage of grads at each that take PI looks comparable as well.

splitmuch
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby splitmuch » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:19 pm

bk1 wrote:
splitmuch wrote:I think the national reach of ND and its network is the driving force between the ND>Minn, especially when coupled with its PI bent and the influence that lay prestige can have on some PI jobs. But the difference is definitely not big enough to overcome what the personal discomfort the OP will have at ND (forgetting judgment on the merit of that discomfort).


Fair enough, but I would say that going to ND for anything other than the midwest is an awful idea. And that the percentage of grads at each that take PI looks comparable as well.


I think I side with you on this, just trying to explain where some people are getting it from.

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bk1
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:23 pm

splitmuch wrote:I think I side with you on this, just trying to explain where some people are getting it from.


Oh that makes sense. I just assumed people were advocating ND for its higher NLJ250 placement (I wasn't going to read 6+ pages of drivel and banter regarding atheism/religion). And I just went back and realized OP said PI.

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ahduth
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby ahduth » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:37 pm

quixotical wrote:
mpj_3050 wrote:
quixotical wrote:
No, I'm serious. Notre Dame and Minnesota are great, especially with the money. Better schools than I can get into.

I've never really felt comfortable telling someone I don't believe in God. I'm in the midwest right now and heading to the south. I would choose Minneapolis over South Bend myself having been to both.


Thanks for the advice! Sorry for doubting your sincerity, haha.

I lived in Kansas for less than two years but I was too young at the time to get a feel for how hard it would be to "come out" as an atheist. I wonder if being an atheist in Minnesota is stigmatized? Hmmm.

I've only been to Minneapolis. Good to hear that someone who has been to both favors Minneapolis. I feel like I'm looking for reasons not to choose ND, lol.


We have to "come out" as atheists? We should get our own parade. Kind of like gay pride parades, but instead of costumes and dancing, it'll just be a stream of vaguely unkempt people marching along looking grumpy.

I've never actually been to Minneapolis, but given that Minnesota is secretly part of Canada, I don't think you'll have any problems. Joking aside, people from Minnesota will actually annoy you with how reasonable they are. It's stressful.

Skyhook
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby Skyhook » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:14 pm

Given that OP has a choice between schools, I don't see why he shouldn't explore it and garner information in this thread. I don't see any reason to lock this thread.
ND is a religious university. OP is trying to find out how that might affect his law school experience. Seems like the responsible thing to do, not a flame.

A school may have better job prospects, but you need to be able to take advantage of them. If you are unhappy at a school, you are unlikely to do the best you can, job prospects diminish. If I thought my education would be compromised by the atmosphere of a school, I would discount it. You want to be learning in the right environment for you.

OP, definitely visit and sit in on a class. Ask questions about current students' experience, just make sure you frame them in the right way. You can see how easily people get upset.

----------
As far as the Richard Dawkins comments... The man has spent his adult life researching animal behavior and evolutionary biology. He is an expert in the field and in the scientific method that allows us to understand the world. He makes it very clear as to why he has written his books on religion. Scientists and scientific educators should not have to battle over their work with religious groups. School textbooks are continually fucked about with by people who know nothing of the subject and wish to insert their unfounded opinions on the matter. Gould was wrong, NOMA doesn't work.

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lisjjen
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby lisjjen » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:23 pm

ahduth wrote:We have to "come out" as atheists? We should get our own parade. Kind of like gay pride parades, but instead of costumes and dancing, it'll just be a stream of vaguely unkempt people marching along looking grumpy.


Lolz. I think this is the first funny thing I've seen on this froum that I can show somebody not in the admissions proccess without explaining it first.

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YourCaptain
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby YourCaptain » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:16 pm

bk1 wrote:1. OP stop getting your panties in a bunch about the religion thing. If it bothers you that much you probably should just leave America. As someone who is also atheist I am telling you that you will be more comfortable if you grow a thick skin and stop letting it bother you.

2. Why is everybody saying that ND>UMinn? UMinn may not place as much in NLJ250 jobs but UMinn does almost as well at placing kids into 6 figure salary jobs as ND does. The differences between these schools isn't very large and if OP would be okay working in the Twin Cities then I think UMinn is a fantastic choice. ND will probably have larger pull in the midwest generally but I don't think that ND > UMinn if OP is okay with Minnesota considering they have really similar general job prospects.


The job prospects are not similar.

HyeMart
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby HyeMart » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:21 pm

just a question OP, what did you answer when ND's application asked for religion?

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quixotical
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby quixotical » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:37 pm

HyeMart wrote:just a question OP, what did you answer when ND's application asked for religion?


I said I was an Atheist, and in "Why ND," I explicitly stated I was an Atheist and my background with Catholicism. I was a philosophy minor, and I also spoke about that in relation to my atheism.

JDizzle
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby JDizzle » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:12 am

Skyhook wrote:As far as the Richard Dawkins comments... The man has spent his adult life researching animal behavior and evolutionary biology. He is an expert in the field and in the scientific method that allows us to understand the world. He makes it very clear as to why he has written his books on religion. Scientists and scientific educators should not have to battle over their work with religious groups. School textbooks are continually fucked about with by people who know nothing of the subject and wish to insert their unfounded opinions on the matter. Gould was wrong, NOMA doesn't work.


Just wanted to point out the irony of Richard Dawkins, who "has spent his adult life researching animal behavior and evolutionary biology," writing a book on religious philosophy (something about people who know nothing about a subject and unfounded opinions?). Apparently scientists are allowed to play upon their credentials in the field of evolutionary biology to write a philosophically vapid book on a COMPLETELY different subject.

Also, NOMA does work...provided it remains N-O. But wait, Dawkins (the only scientist who ever mattered, to some) has objections to this, too...

OP - Go to ND. Your 1L you'll be too busy trying to figure out how to flourish in law school. 2L you'll be in London (and among many an atheist). 3L you'll be prepping for the bar and looking for a job. Not much time to concern yourself with how religious campus is or is not. If your profs bring up religious ethics in class and it makes you uncomfortable, call them out on it. Be careful though, as they are much smarter than you and will probably make you look silly in front of your peers.

If you go to Minnesota you'll always wonder if you should've shelved the atheist badge you wear on your sleeve for 3 years and risked occasional discomfort for better name recognition, job placement, salary, etc. etc. Who knows, you may come away from ND a more well-rounded, open-minded, tolerant (gasp!) individual. :)

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bk1
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:28 pm

YourCaptain wrote:
bk1 wrote:1. OP stop getting your panties in a bunch about the religion thing. If it bothers you that much you probably should just leave America. As someone who is also atheist I am telling you that you will be more comfortable if you grow a thick skin and stop letting it bother you.

2. Why is everybody saying that ND>UMinn? UMinn may not place as much in NLJ250 jobs but UMinn does almost as well at placing kids into 6 figure salary jobs as ND does. The differences between these schools isn't very large and if OP would be okay working in the Twin Cities then I think UMinn is a fantastic choice. ND will probably have larger pull in the midwest generally but I don't think that ND > UMinn if OP is okay with Minnesota considering they have really similar general job prospects.


The job prospects are not similar.


Would you like to defend that statement?
Last edited by bk1 on Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lonagan
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby Lonagan » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:36 pm

I skipped all the bullshit about religion, but in answer to the original question:

I can't offer a meaningful comparison to Notre Dame, but I'm a 1L at Minnesota and I'm looking to leave. I will probably just stay and not enjoy my life for two years, but I'm not going to tell you very strongly to go to Minnesota. That being said, if you want to work in Minnesota, it's probably the best school outside the T-10 you can go to.

Minnesota lacks resources, jacked up the size of incoming class last year without a corresponding increase in curricular offerings, etc. If all you want to do is sit in big lecture classes it's a great school. If you want to do anything else, you likely won't here.

Skyhook
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby Skyhook » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:40 pm

JDizzle wrote:Just wanted to point out the irony of Richard Dawkins, who "has spent his adult life researching animal behavior and evolutionary biology," writing a book on religious philosophy (something about people who know nothing about a subject and unfounded opinions?). Apparently scientists are allowed to play upon their credentials in the field of evolutionary biology to write a philosophically vapid book on a COMPLETELY different subject.

Also, NOMA does work...provided it remains N-O. But wait, Dawkins (the only scientist who ever mattered, to some) has objections to this, too...

OP - Go to ND. Your 1L you'll be too busy trying to figure out how to flourish in law school. 2L you'll be in London (and among many an atheist). 3L you'll be prepping for the bar and looking for a job. Not much time to concern yourself with how religious campus is or is not. If your profs bring up religious ethics in class and it makes you uncomfortable, call them out on it. Be careful though, as they are much smarter than you and will probably make you look silly in front of your peers.

If you go to Minnesota you'll always wonder if you should've shelved the atheist badge you wear on your sleeve for 3 years and risked occasional discomfort for better name recognition, job placement, salary, etc. etc. Who knows, you may come away from ND a more well-rounded, open-minded, tolerant (gasp!) individual. :)


The original Dawkins comment was to do with intolerance. As I said, it's perfectly clear why he wrote the God Delusion. You don't address this at all. Religion has an impact on day-to-day life, including science, with no basis other than "Because we said so because our ancient text says so".
Perhaps I'm misguided here, but shouldn't lawyers be looking to use evidence rather than revelation?

I think scientists, professionals who do careful analysis and use evidence, are well-placed to look into religion.
Besides, how is TGD vapid?

Why should OP shelve his atheist badge, if he even has one? Seems less apparent than someone wearing a crucifix.
Perhaps OP doesn't want to get into a slanging match with a professor on certain aspects of religion. Shit, OP is going to law school for a legal education/ to think like a lawyer/ to be in huge debt/ etc
I don't know the atmosphere at ND or Minn, but if ND doesn't feel right because the religious angle is pushed too much for OP, then OP shouldn't go.

And now we're back to the tolerance thing. Would going to ND make OP more tolerant?

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emorystud2010
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby emorystud2010 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:43 pm

retake

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ndirish2010
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:45 pm

LOL at this thread.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby whymeohgodno » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:46 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:LOL at this thread.


This.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:55 pm

Skyhook wrote:The original Dawkins comment was to do with intolerance. As I said, it's perfectly clear why he wrote the God Delusion. You don't address this at all. Religion has an impact on day-to-day life, including science, with no basis other than "Because we said so because our ancient text says so".
Perhaps I'm misguided here, but shouldn't lawyers be looking to use evidence rather than revelation?

I think scientists, professionals who do careful analysis and use evidence, are well-placed to look into religion.
Besides, how is TGD vapid?

Why should OP shelve his atheist badge, if he even has one? Seems less apparent than someone wearing a crucifix.
Perhaps OP doesn't want to get into a slanging match with a professor on certain aspects of religion. Shit, OP is going to law school for a legal education/ to think like a lawyer/ to be in huge debt/ etc
I don't know the atmosphere at ND or Minn, but if ND doesn't feel right because the religious angle is pushed too much for OP, then OP shouldn't go.

And now we're back to the tolerance thing. Would going to ND make OP more tolerant?


Dawkins seems like a prick. I haven't read TGD, but based on interviews I have read with him I get the feeling that alot of his atheist crusade is really about feeding his narcissism. The irony to me is that the first bullet point of his movement for atheists to "come out" is to improve the public perception of atheism, but most of his actions are counterproductive to that aim because he is so intent on drawing a line in the sand.

Skyhook
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Re: Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$?

Postby Skyhook » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:12 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:
Skyhook wrote:The original Dawkins comment was to do with intolerance. As I said, it's perfectly clear why he wrote the God Delusion. You don't address this at all. Religion has an impact on day-to-day life, including science, with no basis other than "Because we said so because our ancient text says so".
Perhaps I'm misguided here, but shouldn't lawyers be looking to use evidence rather than revelation?

I think scientists, professionals who do careful analysis and use evidence, are well-placed to look into religion.
Besides, how is TGD vapid?

Why should OP shelve his atheist badge, if he even has one? Seems less apparent than someone wearing a crucifix.
Perhaps OP doesn't want to get into a slanging match with a professor on certain aspects of religion. Shit, OP is going to law school for a legal education/ to think like a lawyer/ to be in huge debt/ etc
I don't know the atmosphere at ND or Minn, but if ND doesn't feel right because the religious angle is pushed too much for OP, then OP shouldn't go.

And now we're back to the tolerance thing. Would going to ND make OP more tolerant?


Dawkins seems like a prick. I haven't read TGD, but based on interviews I have read with him I get the feeling that alot of his atheist crusade is really about feeding his narcissism. The irony to me is that the first bullet point of his movement for atheists to "come out" is to improve the public perception of atheism, but most of his actions are counterproductive to that aim because he is so intent on drawing a line in the sand.


At least you were honest on the first point.
Not sure how you go about justifying the second point.

But once again, the Dawkins rebuttal was to do with intolerance. Labeling people, such as OP, Dawkins, atheists in general, as intolerant was misleading and over the top.

To get back to the topic, anyone from ND Law, especially an atheist, care to chime in on the atmosphere there? Is the religious angle an issue?




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