Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$? Forum

[quixotical]

Seriously, if you're not a flame quixotical you're going to have to do better than such blanket and unsupported assertions or else you're going to be torn apart on law school exams.

Even at my very liberal school in the NE such phrases as, "I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations" will get you laughed out of class.

Are you serious? You must not be Catholic, because all Catholics know that the Pope's word = God's word. The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

Catholic /= Roman Catholic

And once again, members of the ROMAN catholic church can still be liberal. Its not like they kick you out for not agreeing with everything the pope says, and you can still identify yourself as catholic

But I could be excommunicated! Unless I buy me some indulgences first...

Yes, Roman Catholics can be liberal; they may suffer from cognitive dissonance, but whatever.

[HeavenWood]

Liberalism implies tolerance. Christianity, by definition, excludes it.

Richard Dawkins is a shining beacon of tolerance.

I've heard that a lot-- but being intolerant of others' intolerance isn't a bad thing. It's why we have the moral authority to say genocide is wrong, even if the genocide is motivated by religious reasons. We can be intolerant of the genocide perpetrators' intolerance.

Speaking as a fellow atheist, people like Richard Dawkins frustrate me because they cite religion as fundamentally backward and intolerant, an assertion that is neither fair nor true. Do you call that tolerance? Or do you think Christianity is naturally predisposed to bringing out the worst in people. Have you ever heard of a little something called human nature? People tend to use religion as a shield to hide their own moral failings. That doesn't make religion fundamentally bad. It just shows that there are fundamentally bad people out there.

[Stanford4Me]

OMG, he's ASKING the extent of Catholic influence at ND, not proclaiming it. And the only arrogance and matter-of-factness going on here on your part. This is getting silly.

Please, tell me what I have said that is arrogant or matter-of-fact. I told him I fear me might be misattributing a stereotype of Catholics on the law school and provided him with a source to support my concern.

ETA: You can certainly say there was snark in my last post.

[birdlaw117]

You should read TLS's profile of NDLS. The only reason I'm still posting in here is because I feel like you are over exaggerating the extent to which Catholic doctrine penetrates the Law School.

Religion and Politics

Some non-Catholics, atheists, and agnostics are apprehensive about attending the nation’s most famously Catholic university. While the proportions of Catholic students and faculty have declined in recent decades, Notre Dame still stresses its religious roots and mission. Social politics in line with Catholic doctrine are also prominent. But according to NDLS students on TLS, non-Catholics need not fear being isolated or ostracized. One “Double Domer” (someone who attended Notre Dame for undergrad and law school) who is “not religious at all” reports:

Religion doesn't play a role at all in the first year courses, except that some professors do the sign of the cross before class and there is a crucifix in every classroom….I’ve been here for four years and I’ve never had a problem with the religious environment. I think it makes us distinctive, which I actually like despite the fact I've never really participated in it. I don't believe the religious aspect should be a huge part of the decision making process, unless it is positive for you.[vii]


Another student advises potential worriers:

For virtually all non-Catholics at Notre Dame, it's never been an issue. You let the 10-second prayer at the start of a few professors' class roll past. You won't even know when or where weekly mass is. You will never set foot in the chapel in the law school. You just live your life and accept that there might be people of faith taking their faith seriously around you.[viii]

Still another, addressing the political side of things, writes:

You'd actually be surprised at the range of views and events they have—a month or so ago, they had LGBT awareness week at the law school with speakers all week, which was extremely well-attended, [including] a con law professor talking about gay marriage and the first openly gay judge in Illinois talking about his experiences (and openly criticizing the Catholic Church and its stance on homosexuality to boot). I've had one professor who prayed before one class, but it was a small seminar class and the only class he prayed before was the last class of the semester, which he had at his house as a semi-Christmas party/discussion. Don't worry; there are definitely people who think like you.[ix]

To be sure, Catholicism is a constant part of life at NDLS, and law school candidates who are particularly uncomfortable with public displays of religiosity may want to look elsewhere. But on the whole, non-Catholics should not write off Notre Dame if it is a good fit along most dimensions.

I wouldn't have a problem with anything you said if you didn't say it in such an arrogant and matter-of-fact manner. That being said, go to Minnesota.

OMG, he's ASKING the extent of Catholic influence at ND, not proclaiming it. And the only arrogance and matter-of-factness going on here on your part. This is getting silly.

Notre Dame offered me 20k/year with only an "academic good standing" stip. I applied because I was attracted to their year-long program in London, but decided against ND since I'm a devout atheist and I'd read on TLS and other places that being atheist and aggressively liberal on hot button issues like abortion and gay-marriage will likely make one very uncomfortable over the course of 3 years.

Eh, seems like a statement. Plus, Stanford4Me certainly hasn't said anything arrogant and has provided solid info for OP.

[quixotical]

Speaking as a fellow atheist, people like Richard Dawkins frustrate me because they cite religion as fundamentally backward and intolerant, an assertion that is neither fair nor true. Do you call that tolerance? Or do you think Christianity is naturally predisposed to bringing out the worst in people. Have you ever heard of a little something called human nature? People tend to use religion as a shield to hide their own moral failings. That doesn't make religion fundamentally bad. It just shows that there are fundamentally bad people out there.

I definitely understand why people (including atheists) can be frustrated by Richard Dawkins. Please note that I never said religion is fundamentally bad, just that two specific Catholic stances are, IMO, opposed to basic human rights. I don't want to insult anyone more than I apparently already have, so if you are really interested in a discussion, feel free to PM me.

[bernard97]

Seriously, if you're not a flame quixotical you're going to have to do better than such blanket and unsupported assertions or else you're going to be torn apart on law school exams.

Even at my very liberal school in the NE such phrases as, "I said that Catholics are against gay-marriage and pro-choice, and I view those stances as being human rights violations" will get you laughed out of class.

Are you serious? You must not be Catholic, because all Catholics know that the Pope's word = God's word. The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

I'm not Catholic myself, but even a basic person keeping up with current events know that a large portion (and likely majority) of US Catholics don't adhere to every Papal position. For instance, the birth control issue that you mentioned is widely disclaimed in most of America.

Mainly though I was commenting on the phrase "human rights violations" more so than what you said about Catholics in general and when you toss around stuff like "Christianity, by definition, excludes it" your statements are clearly just false truisms.

Whether or not some or even most US Catholics adhere to Papal positions isn't relevant to institutions like ND that are Catholic, and accept the basic tenet that the Pope's word = God's word.

Please don't misquote me. I said religion by definition is exclusionary. Meaning in part that it excludes non-believers from salvation. I didn't say that being religious and being supportive of human rights are mutually exclusive, because obviously they are not.

You aren't going to be interacting with the school. You are going to be interacting with the students and faculty, which as stated above have no problem with differing views. If you see it as a huge problem go to Minnesota. But I dont believe it will be since you said you get along with people of differing beliefs. I think you are looking too much into this, but maybe that is a sign you should go to Minnesota.

And every time you write "Whether or not" I cringe. Drop the "or not", you'll thank me next year.

[kwais]

OMG, he's ASKING the extent of Catholic influence at ND, not proclaiming it. And the only arrogance and matter-of-factness going on here on your part. This is getting silly.

Please, tell me what I have said that is arrogant or matter-of-fact. I told him I fear me might be misattributing a stereotype of Catholics on the law school and provided him with a source to support my concern.

Give me a break. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to be a Christian, at least have the stones to admit the mainstream position this religion takes on major social issues. He/she pointed them out and got hammered. Perhaps arrogant was the wrong word, so stop the straw man BS. Own up to it.

[quixotical]

You aren't going to be interacting with the school. You are going to be interacting with the students and faculty, which as stated above have no problem with differing views. If you see it as a huge problem go to Minnesota. But I dont believe it will be since you said you get along with people of differing beliefs. I think you are looking too much into this, but maybe that is a sign you should go to Minnesota.

And every time you write "Whether or not" I cringe. Drop the "or not", you'll thank me next year.

Thanks for the advice re: "whether or not." You're absolutely right-- one of those bad habits I need to break.

I'm not trying to make an unnecessarily big issue out of ND's Catholic affiliation, I just want to make sure I understand exactly what I'm signing up for. Thanks for your input, it is appreciated!

[bernard97]

OMG, he's ASKING the extent of Catholic influence at ND, not proclaiming it. And the only arrogance and matter-of-factness going on here on your part. This is getting silly.

Please, tell me what I have said that is arrogant or matter-of-fact. I told him I fear me might be misattributing a stereotype of Catholics on the law school and provided him with a source to support my concern.

Give me a break. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to be a Christian, at least have the stones to admit the mainstream position this religion takes on major social issues. He/she pointed them out and got hammered. Perhaps arrogant was the wrong word, so stop the straw man BS. Own up to it.

He never denied the mainstream position. He just said that the law school doesn't have a huge emphasis on the mainstream positions. He didn't want the OP to carry that stereotype over to the law school. What's so difficult about that to understand? He was trying to help.

[quixotical]

OMG, he's ASKING the extent of Catholic influence at ND, not proclaiming it. And the only arrogance and matter-of-factness going on here on your part. This is getting silly.

Please, tell me what I have said that is arrogant or matter-of-fact. I told him I fear me might be misattributing a stereotype of Catholics on the law school and provided him with a source to support my concern.

ETA: You can certainly say there was snark in my last post.

I'm not really sure why you think I'm being arrogant. It was certainly not my intention to offend you. I did in fact read the TLS profile for ND, but instead of clarifying things for me, it just made them murkier. I may have to bite the bullet and visit the school to know for sure, but I wanted to get as much information as I could re: if I should even consider ND since I have a good offer from Minn on the table. Thank you for trying to help, it is appreciated.

[birdlaw117]

OMG, he's ASKING the extent of Catholic influence at ND, not proclaiming it. And the only arrogance and matter-of-factness going on here on your part. This is getting silly.

Please, tell me what I have said that is arrogant or matter-of-fact. I told him I fear me might be misattributing a stereotype of Catholics on the law school and provided him with a source to support my concern.

Give me a break. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to be a Christian, at least have the stones to admit the mainstream position this religion takes on major social issues. He/she pointed them out and got hammered. Perhaps arrogant was the wrong word, so stop the straw man BS. Own up to it.

Wow dude. Stanford4Me isn't even talking about religious beliefs. He's saying that the law school doesn't have the same characteristics as the rest of the school/a population of Christians/Catholics. Chill out.

[Grizz]

Are you serious? You must not be Catholic, because all Catholics know that the Pope's word = God's word. The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

If you're going to make statements about Papal Infallibility, at least know how the doctrine works first, herp derpington.

[Stanford4Me]

OMG, he's ASKING the extent of Catholic influence at ND, not proclaiming it. And the only arrogance and matter-of-factness going on here on your part. This is getting silly.

Please, tell me what I have said that is arrogant or matter-of-fact. I told him I fear me might be misattributing a stereotype of Catholics on the law school and provided him with a source to support my concern.

Give me a break. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to be a Christian, at least have the stones to admit the mainstream position this religion takes on major social issues. He/she pointed them out and got hammered. Perhaps arrogant was the wrong word, so stop the straw man BS. Own up to it.

You obviously haven't read anything that I have posted, eh? I haven't been arguing with him about the position the Catholic Church takes on social issues, I'm arguing that I don't think that position is as prevalent at ND as one might think. He got hammered by others for his statement about the Catholic Church, and that was a conversation I intentionally avoided because, as OP clearly stated, he doesn't want this thread to turn into a religious debate.

And sorry, Quix, for my snark. See if you can get in contact with current ND students and ask them about the student body and how prevalent strict Catholic doctrines are in the classroom/in general.

[HeavenWood]

I may have to should bite the bullet and visit the school to know for sure

[birdlaw117]

I may have to should bite the bullet and visit the school to know for sure

[quixotical]

Are you serious? You must not be Catholic, because all Catholics know that the Pope's word = God's word. The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

If you're going to make statements about Papal Infallibility, at least know how the doctrine works first, herp derpington.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Even if it's not covered by Papal Infallibility, the Catholic position on these issues is intractable for all intents and purposes. I think they only recently un-excommunicated Galileo for proving the heliocentric theory of the solar system; to say the RC church is slow to accept change/progressive ideas is a bit of an understatement.

[kwais]

OMG, he's ASKING the extent of Catholic influence at ND, not proclaiming it. And the only arrogance and matter-of-factness going on here on your part. This is getting silly.

Please, tell me what I have said that is arrogant or matter-of-fact. I told him I fear me might be misattributing a stereotype of Catholics on the law school and provided him with a source to support my concern.

Give me a break. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to be a Christian, at least have the stones to admit the mainstream position this religion takes on major social issues. He/she pointed them out and got hammered. Perhaps arrogant was the wrong word, so stop the straw man BS. Own up to it.

You obviously haven't read anything that I have posted, eh? I haven't been arguing with him about the position the Catholic Church takes on social issues, I'm arguing that I don't think that position is as prevalent at ND as one might think. He got hammered by others for his statement about the Catholic Church, and that was a conversation I intentionally avoided because, as OP clearly stated, he doesn't want this thread to turn into a religious debate.

And sorry, Quix, for my snark. See if you can get in contact with current ND students and ask them about the student body and how prevalent strict Catholic doctrines are in the classroom/in general.

sorry, guess my anger was misdirected towards you. I just take issue with the people doing backflips to avoid meeting OP's issues head on.

[YourCaptain]

Strangely enough, it seems (I could be wrong!!!!) that none of the more active posters in this thread actually attend Notre Dame.

[quixotical]

I may have to should bite the bullet and visit the school to know for sure

Too bad they only offer limited need-based travel stipends. Anyone have any luck getting these?

Anyway, thanks for all the input, it really is appreciated.

[quixotical]

Strangely enough, it seems (I could be wrong!!!!) that none of the more active posters in this thread actually attend Notre Dame.

I've searched for ND posters but most of them, if they do mention the religious affiliation, shrug it off without really commenting on why it is/isn't a big deal to them/the rest of the law students. It would be interesting to know if/how religion is incorporated into the classroom experience and in employment prospects.

[Grizz]

Are you serious? You must not be Catholic, because all Catholics know that the Pope's word = God's word. The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

If you're going to make statements about Papal Infallibility, at least know how the doctrine works first, herp derpington.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Even if it's not covered by Papal Infallibility, the Catholic position on these issues is intractable for all intents and purposes. I think they only recently un-excommunicated Galileo for proving the heliocentric theory of the solar system; to say the RC church is slow to accept change/progressive ideas is a bit of an understatement.

Just saying if you're going to attack the theology, make sure you actually get the theology right.

[quixotical]

Are you serious? You must not be Catholic, because all Catholics know that the Pope's word = God's word. The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

If you're going to make statements about Papal Infallibility, at least know how the doctrine works first, herp derpington.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Even if it's not covered by Papal Infallibility, the Catholic position on these issues is intractable for all intents and purposes. I think they only recently un-excommunicated Galileo for proving the heliocentric theory of the solar system; to say the RC church is slow to accept change/progressive ideas is a bit of an understatement.

Just saying if you're going to attack the theology, make sure you actually get the theology right.

I was pointing out that it's not a stereotype to say a "Catholic stance" exists on gay marriage and abortion rights. I was not attacking the theology.

[Grizz]

I was pointing out that it's not a stereotype to say a "Catholic stance" exists on gay marriage and abortion rights. I was not attacking the theology.

The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

[quixotical]

I was pointing out that it's not a stereotype to say a "Catholic stance" exists on gay marriage and abortion rights. I was not attacking the theology.

The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

I'm sorry, but what is this juxtaposition supposed to prove? I wasn't attacking the theology, I was stating facts that a definitive Catholic position does exist on these issues. Even if a stance isn't covered by Papal Infallibility, the stance still exists, and it is extremely unlikely to change. Another poster said that I was just using stereotypes, but I demonstrated that I wasn't since the Catholic Church has issued various statements/proclamations about these things. I also clearly indicated that individual Catholics may decide to disobey/not adhere to Papal positions.

Anyway, none of this is germane to my original question. If you have an opinion on whether the advantages of ND outweigh Minnesota given the scholarship offers and my atheist background, I would be happy to hear it.

[Perch]

ITT: OP prefers to argue theology instead of seeking help for the very real decision at hand.